mikenz
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June 13, 2018, 09:28:07 PM |
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Its awesome! Who else made $$ shorting all the way down? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themillionairesclub.co.za%2Fimages%2Flogo-small-2.png&t=665&c=A1e9kk5ooOBoBA) Welcome!!
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Globb0
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Free spirit
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June 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM |
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Question I have been a bit scared to ask because people here jump down your throat if you dare be different.
If lightening introduces cheaper/free-like transactions? wont that diminish the value/volume of expensive(price driving) bitcoin transactions on the main chain?
I have thought enough about this to have some things to say. I'll add more later if I can think of more. The bitcoin blockchain is an immutable eternal database. You can store something in there and be confident that that information will be stored forever. That is crazy useful. Property titles, ownership tokens, other blockchains will offer this of course, but bitcoin will always be the most ideal place. Also we can always just not increase the block size, ever, until we feel like miners are more than fairly compensated through transaction fees and all models predict that a modest increase in block size will still reatain adequate network security. In fact we can base our decisions about when to increase the block size on no consideration other than security. I personally feel that everything else is secondary. Also I don't think there is a world where lightning gets to the point where it isn't unjustifiably cumbersome for large transactions. Nation states that want to use bitcoin as an alternative to SWIFT will probably find the blockchain it's self to be the place to do something like that. So there will still always be a marginal demand for on chain transactions. Thanks for taking the time to try and help me understand
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cAPSLOCK
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Whimsical Pants
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June 13, 2018, 09:46:48 PM |
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Question I have been a bit scared to ask because people here jump down your throat if you dare be different.
If lightening introduces cheaper/free-like transactions? wont that diminish the value/volume of expensive(price driving) bitcoin transactions on the main chain?
I have thought enough about this to have some things to say. I'll add more later if I can think of more. The bitcoin blockchain is an immutable eternal database. You can store something in there and be confident that that information will be stored forever. That is crazy useful. Property titles, ownership tokens, other blockchains will offer this of course, but bitcoin will always be the most ideal place. Also we can always just not increase the block size, ever, until we feel like miners are more than fairly compensated through transaction fees and all models predict that a modest increase in block size will still reatain adequate network security. In fact we can base our decisions about when to increase the block size on no consideration other than security. I personally feel that everything else is secondary. Also I don't think there is a world where lightning gets to the point where it isn't unjustifiably cumbersome for large transactions. Nation states that want to use bitcoin as an alternative to SWIFT will probably find the blockchain it's self to be the place to do something like that. So there will still always be a marginal demand for on chain transactions. It's about choices, IMO. Much of the ideals we early bitcoiners have lauded are not something that all of humanity can share without there being a tremendous amount of personal responsibility. Probably an unreasonable amount. For example: Banks. Hang around here and you will read many saying GET RID OF 'EM. But the fact is we will always need them. At least some people will. And layer 2 lets us build the services that the new "banks" will use to offer us value for letting them put their paws on our money. Here is something we are hearing said a lot recently: "Custodial services". Not everyone has the ability or desire to do the sort of opsec to safeguard deep amounts of value in crypto. And even the more savvy like (dare i say) many of us would benefit from a nice liquid place to lock up some liquid money for spending and moving around. Layer 1 plus layer 2 gives me the option to be responsible for the mass of my wealth privately, while directing some of it into channels that may look a little like banks... or perhaps less distributed. Lightning gives us a choice. I like that.
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d_eddie
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June 13, 2018, 10:03:23 PM |
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El duderino_
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BTC + Crossfit, living life.
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June 13, 2018, 10:09:47 PM |
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NEWS FOR YOU ITS YOUR DATE QUICK list 12288 is finisht GOOD LUCK WO's 16/04/2018 serveria.com ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 27/04/2018 BinaryReign ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 28/04/2018 Toxic2040 ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 29/04/2018 BobLawblaw ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 30/04/2018 RayX12 ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 05/05/2018 kaicrypzen ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 07/05/2018 InvoKing ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 08/05/2018 ChinkyEyes ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 13/05/2018 mfort312 ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 15/05/2018 Paashaas ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 16/05/2018 player99 ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 17/05/2018 bikerleszno ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 19/05/2018 Bitcoinaire ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 20/05/2018 willope ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 21/05/2018 rafanadal ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 22/05/2018 strawbs ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 24/05/2018 yonton ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 25/05/2018 JimboToronto ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 26/05/2018 Colonel Panic ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 29/05/2018 ivomm ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 30/05/2018 Lontonbit ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 31/05/2018 BTCMILLIONAIRE ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 01/06/2018 RoomBot ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 02/06/2018 rjclarke2000 ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 03/06/2018 oblox ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 04/06/2018 wachtwoord ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 05/06/2018 Wekkel ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 08/06/2018 hisslyness ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 09/06/2018 LodisMcguire ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 11/06/2018 Raja_MBZ ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 12/06/2018 bitcoinPsycho ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 13/06/2018 erre ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 14/06/2018 vroom ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) 15/06/2018 d_eddie 16/06/2018 coralreefer 18/06/2018 Robin,Hood 20/06/2018 rolling 22/06/2018 Biodom 23/06/2018 Dunkelheit667 25/06/2018 bones261 26/06/2018 Arriemoller 28/06/2018 klaaas 30/06/2018 DarkStar_ 01/07/2018 o_e_l_e_o 02/07/2018 jojo69 03/07/2018 Karatma1 04/07/2018 Elwar 13/07/2018 sirazimuth 14/07/2018 Ludwig Von 21/07/2018 Lauda 22/07/2018 LFC_Bitcoin 26/07/2018 Icygreen 02/08/2018 fragout 03/08/2018 supremnoob 06/08/2018 cAPSLOCK 08/08/2018 infofront 10/08/2018 HairyMaclairy 15/08/2018 Phil_S 16/08/2018 Rosewater Foundation 17/08/2018 B1tUnl0ck3r 19/08/2018 Imbatman 21/08/2018 BitcoinBunny 27/08/2018 soullyG 28/08/2018 RealMachasm 29/08/2018 STT 04/09/2018 flynn 08/09/2018 xhomerx10 09/09/2018 vapourminer 11/09/2018 Dakustaking76 20/09/2018 Digigami 22/09/2018 Agapios 26/09/2018 itod 30/09/2018 DeathAngel 12/10/2018 IntroVert 15/10/2018 explorer 18/10/2018 Searing 26/10/2018 kurious 09/11/2018 fabiorem 15/11/2018 bitserve 20/11/2018 Globb0 22/11/2018 Last of the V8s 01/12/2018 Alexander_Z 07/03/2019 CoinCube 15/04/2019 Spaceman_Spiff_Original 20/06/2019 bitebits 13/12/2019 nikauforest 10/04/2020 yefi 05/09/2020 samson 23/06/2021 fortune143
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mymenace
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Smile
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June 13, 2018, 10:24:24 PM |
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I just ran into this. This is so stupid. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn-images-1.medium.com%2Fmax%2F1600%2F1%2AFBNYlqLdwWRyUT1rpibZ2Q.png&t=665&c=PBAFnNpMudCPuw) I'm so tired of all of this ignorant anti lighting network rhetoric that I keep hearing and seeing constantly. Do you guys think Ver is funding this BS. It feels like there is just too much of it for it to be organic. P.S. Do you guys feel this is on topic enough for the wall observer thread. It's not about jews at least... but it's exactly about the price either... I just wanted a place to rant where it would actually be read and it is about bitcoin atleast... Not enough talk of jello wrestling and asses, I say delete it. Distributed is the new centralization A lot of think tanks have worked out they can still manipulate if they run a distributed program and know we now hate centralization (anything centralized) So now the fear starts as to why distributed programs are " SAFE" and " SECURE" for you example an australian bitcoin voting party announced Direct Democracy you vote on each policy then all of a sudden it changed from Direct (Decentralized) Vs. Indirect Distribution (Centralized) http://www.youngupstarts.com/2017/09/04/direct-vs-indirect-distribution/run away from the flux party you can call them out now, go have fun Remember lightning network is just the same as your credit card, atm, visa mastercard network a faster payment system on top of the banks keep it simple and decentralized no worries
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RayX12
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 13, 2018, 10:26:37 PM |
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Someone said: Be greedy when others are fearful! Buy Buy Buy Bitcoin. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffiltonbells.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F3%2F9%2F5%2F13954478%2F1956555_orig.gif&t=665&c=E4wFmJOy7QakxQ)
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DonQuijote
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♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ < ♛♚&#
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June 13, 2018, 10:33:35 PM |
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Someone said: Be greedy when others are fearful! Buy Buy Buy Bitcoin. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffiltonbells.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F3%2F9%2F5%2F13954478%2F1956555_orig.gif&t=665&c=E4wFmJOy7QakxQ) since 19k $ ![Huh](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/huh.gif) its not the dip
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jojo69
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diamond-handed zealot
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June 13, 2018, 11:12:37 PM |
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Miners won't let the price fall to 5000. This is only one aspect to the manipulation that’s been going on since September. However if you look at the hash rate, it’s trending upwards, almost parabolically. This is because asic miners are in excess and they can ship them out much faster than last year, when demand was at ATH. Coupled with strange miner confidence in bitcoin which I cannot explain. Even if you ignore hashrate increase, assume miners do not leave bitcoin, and look at the price vs. block difficulty by the end of the year, profitability approaches 0 in all cases from 7500-10000. If miners switch, it can alleviate this pressure, but who will be leaving and who can afford to weather this storm currently? Big farms are more economical than small miners. It seems like an effort to weed out small miners and their coins, while centralizing mining, all while they can make money by liquidating people on longs/shorts. If it wasn’t a manipulated market I wouldn’t believe this, but it seems likely. I welcome regulations and investigations into market manipulation. After all, exchanges are the only ones who can see real volume.
People don't seem to understand that miners can and will mine at a loss. The only real limit is that it be cheaper than other forms of money laundering.
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SpiryGolden
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June 13, 2018, 11:23:31 PM |
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This bounce will be fun to watch. It would be the 3rd. But a lot of people don't like to watch it macro and don't see the over-sold triggers all over the place.
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Raja_MBZ
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June 13, 2018, 11:52:31 PM |
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I'm very disheartened today. Lost a major chunk of my bitcoin holdings (almost 0.38 BTC) on Bitmex even though I've been longing since $8000 with just 4x leverage (adding more & more after every dump to average it further down), but still at $6140, I got liquidated. With this, I can pretty much assure that $6140 was actually the bottom. It was only to liquidate me, hard luck. Don't comment that I need to risk only what I can afford to lose, I know that very well, just had some real bad luck (as well as confusion) this time. what does this mean?
This means: 1. register on Bitmex 2. deposit bitcoin 3. choose at least 10x leverage and go long (right now at $6500) 4. get your bitcoin doubled when bitcoin reaches $7500 I take this advice completely back. I'm not going to open that website ever again. Probably a URL which I'll hate the most after LibertyReserve.com. Miners won't let the price fall to 5000. This is only one aspect to the manipulation that’s been going on since September. However if you look at the hash rate, it’s trending upwards, almost parabolically. This is because asic miners are in excess and they can ship them out much faster than last year, when demand was at ATH. Coupled with strange miner confidence in bitcoin which I cannot explain. Even if you ignore hashrate increase, assume miners do not leave bitcoin, and look at the price vs. block difficulty by the end of the year, profitability approaches 0 in all cases from 7500-10000. If miners switch, it can alleviate this pressure, but who will be leaving and who can afford to weather this storm currently? Big farms are more economical than small miners. It seems like an effort to weed out small miners and their coins, while centralizing mining, all while they can make money by liquidating people on longs/shorts. If it wasn’t a manipulated market I wouldn’t believe this, but it seems likely. I welcome regulations and investigations into market manipulation. After all, exchanges are the only ones who can see real volume.
People don't seem to understand that miners can and will mine at a loss. The only real limit is that it be cheaper than other forms of money laundering. True. Moreover, increasing hash-rate doesn't necessarily mean that the number of miners is increasing, it might also be due to the newer versions of Bitmain now available in the market with greatly improved efficiency.
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regent4
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June 13, 2018, 11:56:52 PM |
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pacman7331
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June 14, 2018, 12:14:58 AM |
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6k is bottom. Gonna just go out on a limb and say we won’t see sub 6k coins. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2F35lrfoi.jpg&t=665&c=PfAKEBEWeMlFGg) Some buy volume coming in. Hit the edge of the descending wedge ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F9k4h8y.jpg&t=665&c=kOt2wPBMwxgkzg)
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smartcomet
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June 14, 2018, 12:20:16 AM |
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Good news https://blog.coinbase.com/coinbase-index-fund-is-open-for-investment-61217606f1efCoinbase Index Fund is now open for investments of $250,000 to $20M.
Coinbase Index Fund gives investors exposure to all assets listed on our exchange, weighted by market capitalization. As we announced yesterday, the fund will be rebalanced to include Ethereum Classic, and more assets when they are listed by Coinbase in the future.
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Rosewater Foundation
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June 14, 2018, 12:37:52 AM |
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Bob touting the merits of Lightning Network. Get ready for another leg down.
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theymos
Administrator
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June 14, 2018, 12:51:17 AM |
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I read through the Tether manipulation paper. IMO it made two convincing points:
#1 Someone has a habit of doing this: - Issuing new USDT - Within days, moving that USDT to BitFinex, Bittrex, and/or Poloniex - Using that USDT to buy crypto (seemingly a portfolio of BTC & others). They especially like to buy crypto when the price is just below whole numbers. - Moving the resulting crypto back to BitFinex - Rarely or never selling the crypto for USDT again The authors argue that this is Tether/BitFinex themselves, and I think that this is in fact the most likely explanation. But the authors didn't address the alternative possibility of this being a particularly ham-fisted whale who is a close partner of Tether.
#2 Due to end-of-month trading, Tether has probably always been trading with USD deposited with them (fractional-reserve), though at least until March 2017, USDT was probably not complete monopoly money, since they did go to the effort of achieving an end-of-month USD balance.
The authors also tried to argue some other points which I didn't find convincing.
I took the paper's data at face value. There were several points where I thought that they could be cherry-picking data, but it's too difficult to check this sort of thing. Cherry-picking / confirmation bias is especially easy to do with block-chain analysis. And I know for a fact that their method of grouping block-chain transactions is not robust in general, though it probably was sufficient for what they did here.
I've thought for a long time that USDT is almost certainly a scam, and this paper makes me think so even more. Though I was actually a little surprised that this provides evidence (via the end-of-month trading) that USDT ever had any real USD.
The paper estimates that if you removed the USDT issuance events which the paper's authors regard as most likely to be BTC price manipulation, the BTC price would be $4100 as of March 31. But that's based on a whole pile of assumptions; I wouldn't give it much credence. I think that the collapse of USDT will be mostly limited to the obvious direct effects (ie. some exchanges would have major troubles, there'd be many people stuck with worthless USDT, etc.), and there would not somehow be a natural "rollback" of any gains which monopoly-money USDT may have driven. Also, the paper makes clear that all major crypto was affected, often much more than BTC, so this isn't any sort of argument against BTC in particular.
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Gab0
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
June 14, 2018, 12:53:33 AM |
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I'm very disheartened today. Lost a major chunk of my bitcoin holdings (almost 0.38 BTC) on Bitmex even though I've been longing since $8000 with just 4x leverage (adding more & more after every dump to average it further down), but still at $6140, I got liquidated. With this, I can pretty much assure that $6140 was actually the bottom. It was only to liquidate me, hard luck. Don't comment that I need to risk only what I can afford to lose, I know that very well, just had some real bad luck (as well as confusion) this time. what does this mean?
This means: 1. register on Bitmex 2. deposit bitcoin 3. choose at least 10x leverage and go long (right now at $6500) 4. get your bitcoin doubled when bitcoin reaches $7500 I take this advice completely back. I'm not going to open that website ever again. Probably a URL which I'll hate the most after LibertyReserve.com. As I said before ... you are an excellent contraindication lol
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d_eddie
Legendary
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Activity: 2604
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June 14, 2018, 12:55:45 AM |
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NEWS FOR YOU ITS YOUR DATE QUICK list 12288 is finisht GOOD LUCK WO's (list snipped) 15/06/2018 d_eddie Oh really? I gave up on this long ago... removed from my mind. What was that list about again? ![Tongue](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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JayJuanGee
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
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June 14, 2018, 01:14:08 AM |
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I think the pain is just beginning.
And here I thought I was a waffler.. ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) That was less than a hour for a 180... Thats pretty good even for WO standards. /sI posted the HODL meme for emotional support for all the HODLers because it was looking bad. Bad financial advice? Probably. However, I was a bear yesterday, and am a bear today. ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) This will be my first publicly announce without minus merit distribution... .. which negative goes to bear converts (even if merely a temporary status). Long term bull, as always. Short term still bearish. Send all the negative merits my way! The social engineers are about. This thing is gonna tumble. I can feel it in my bones now. I called it. So what? You can say price is going to go 1) UP, 2) DOWN or 3) SIDEWAYS. 33% odds regarding any of the statements. You happen to guess correctly, so then you are a genius? All of a sudden? ![Roll Eyes](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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