Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Ibian]

"Beat me to it" quotes of the day (Torque was first). Here go my last merits.

Oh well, I think jbreher is worth talking to sometimes... JUST-DON'T-EVER-MENTION-BCASH-TO-HIM. *THAT*'s not worth it. Never forget that rule and everything will be fine.

That's his... uhm, religion. Apart from that handicap, discussions with jbreher are mostly fine.

It's a pretty big fucking handicap. Might as well try getting away with saying that apart from wanting to kill us all, muslims are pretty decent people.

[jbreher]

Failure to provide evidence of your claim is duly noted.

You should already be aware of such a standard that there is no burden to provide evidence when rebutting off topic claims.. those can be summarily dismissed without any kind of evidence whatsoever, because providing evidence would be to sustain and perhaps pursue the off-topicness, which deserves to go to another thread.

Diversion and dissemblance duly detected.

[jbreher]

The 'way Bitcoin is supposed to work' is any manner that anyone might try and succeed in making it work. Due precisely to its permissionless nature.

You're literally describing and making the case for Bitcoin development as it has been going since day 1.

Exactly.

[d_eddie]

"Beat me to it" quotes of the day (Torque was first). Here go my last merits.

Oh well, I think jbreher is worth talking to sometimes... JUST-DON'T-EVER-MENTION-BCASH-TO-HIM. *THAT*'s not worth it. Never forget that rule and everything will be fine.

That's his... uhm, religion. Apart from that handicap, discussions with jbreher are mostly fine.

It's a pretty big fucking handicap. Might as well try getting away with saying that apart from wanting to kill us all, muslims are pretty decent people.

Yes, yes, it's the same.

[figmentofmyass]

Zeroconf is not built atop 'trust Wu, Ver and Wright'. It is built atop 'we don't have overwhelming tx backlog that makes doublespends hard to detect'.

without a backlog, it's still batshit crazy to accept 0-conf. people have double spent against both bitpay and coinbase; peter todd did it publicly once. if you close out the invoice before confirmation, there's nothing stopping the consumer from pushing a higher-fee transaction using the same inputs.

the "tx backlog" really seems like a red herring. 0-conf has an inherently weaker trust model. satoshi acknowledged this:

As you figured out, the root problem is we shouldn't be counting or spending transactions until they have at least 1 confirmation.  0/unconfirmed transactions are very much second class citizens.  At most, they are advice that something has been received, but counting them as balance or spending them is premature.

accepting 0-conf transactions doesn't mean trusting "Wu, Ver and Wright".....it means trusting the payor not to steal back his money from you.

[d_eddie]

(snip)
Do you really think I'm a troll?

If you're not then why are you appearing to troll?
(snip bona fide explanation)

"Thank you for the explanation!"
"Hairy... insightful!"
"Me... not above trolling... once or twice in my life... dash thread."

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg34306588#msg34306588
such a reasonable dude

Anon136, a legend with 49/470 merit earned against 203/414. Over 4 times as much. Theymos's new ranking system indeed provides more useful information than the old. And prompt scouting is available, anyway.

Hey, mighty Theymos, do you hear us? We need more statistics, like "Imagination", "Magic Dust" or "Emep", which might stand for "Earned Merit per Eligible Post (ratio)".

[d_eddie]

Zeroconf is not built atop 'trust Wu, Ver and Wright'. It is built atop 'we don't have overwhelming tx backlog that makes doublespends hard to detect'.

without a backlog, it's still batshit crazy to accept 0-conf. people have double spent against both bitpay and coinbase; peter todd did it publicly once. if you close out the invoice before confirmation, there's nothing stopping the consumer from pushing a higher-fee transaction using the same inputs.

the "tx backlog" really seems like a red herring. 0-conf has an inherently weaker trust model. satoshi acknowledged this:

As you figured out, the root problem is we shouldn't be counting or spending transactions until they have at least 1 confirmation.  0/unconfirmed transactions are very much second class citizens.  At most, they are advice that something has been received, but counting them as balance or spending them is premature.

accepting 0-conf transactions doesn't mean trusting "Wu, Ver and Wright".....it means trusting the payor not to steal back his money from you.

+1 WOSmerit

Summarizing: with a tx backlog (I inexactly called it "cache") it's probably doable, but it's a shit solution anyway. If I could vote for 0-conf or RBF as a feature, I'd pick RBF anyway.

[Last of the V8s]

(snip)
Anon136, a legend with 49/470 merit earned against 203/414. Over 4 times as much. Theymos's new ranking system indeed provides more useful information than the old. And prompt scouting is available, anyway.

Hey, mighty Theymos, do you hear us? We need more statistics, like "Imagination", "Magic Dust" or "Emep", which might stand for "Earned Merit per Eligible Post (ratio)".

What's your denominator there? EMEP's 'per eligible post' might maybe be better.

[jbreher]

Zeroconf is not built atop 'trust Wu, Ver and Wright'. It is built atop 'we don't have overwhelming tx backlog that makes doublespends hard to detect'.

without a backlog, it's still batshit crazy to accept 0-conf. people have double spent against both bitpay and coinbase; peter todd did it publicly once. if you close out the invoice before confirmation, there's nothing stopping the consumer from pushing a higher-fee transaction using the same inputs.

In the relevant protocol model, it is not 'batshit crazy'. It is another parameter one uses into the calculation between shrink and volume. in the same way that WalMart makes a calculation between how much merchandise walks out the door unpaid vs hiring a dedicated shoplifting observer for each and every customer in the store.

the "tx backlog" really seems like a red herring. 0-conf has an inherently weaker trust model. satoshi acknowledged this:

As you figured out, the root problem is we shouldn't be counting or spending transactions until they have at least 1 confirmation.  0/unconfirmed transactions are very much second class citizens.  At most, they are advice that something has been received, but counting them as balance or spending them is premature.

Yes, it is indeed a weaker trust model. But one completely at the discretion of the affected party.

As opposed to SegWit's inherently weaker trust model that can affect everyone.

accepting 0-conf transactions doesn't mean trusting "Wu, Ver and Wright".....it means trusting the payor not to steal back his money from you.

Agreed.

[jbreher]

If I could vote for 0-conf or RBF as a feature, I'd pick RBF anyway.

You realize, of course, that RBF _requires_ persistently full blocks in order to work reliably, right?

[Toxic2040]

Some interesting dynamics starting to manifest on the chart. What I like to call spring compression has been taking place with this controlled accumulation. #dyor

[d_eddie]

(snip)
Anon136, a legend with 49/470 merit earned against 203/414. Over 4 times as much. Theymos's new ranking system indeed provides more useful information than the old. And prompt scouting is available, anyway.

Hey, mighty Theymos, do you hear us? We need more statistics, like "Imagination", "Magic Dust" or "Emep", which might stand for "Earned Merit per Eligible Post (ratio)".

What's your denominator there? EMEP's 'per eligible post' might maybe be better.

Per post again - like acceleration vs speed?

Maybe by "Eligible post" I meant "Activity since the Merit System" rather than "Actual posts since the Merit System". The second quantity isn't available anyway. I haven't refined the idea too much, actually. I might get lucky in Meta (I threw it there, too).

Thanks for the bug hunting.

[d_eddie]

If I could vote for 0-conf or RBF as a feature, I'd pick RBF anyway.

You realize, of course, that RBF _requires_ persistently full blocks in order to work reliably, right?

Jus' make'em blocks smaller if you really care for RBF, then!

Oops. Redneck in me. We start sliding, man. Sorry. Let's keep it here, we ain't gonna vote on this anyway.
With a little help from my freh-eh.

[Last of the V8s]

Gentlemen, please prepare your Vegeta memes.
We are going to smash through $9k tonight.
9.4-9.8 incoming.

[bitcoinPsycho]

[podyx]

[Elwar]

So does the bcash arguing mean that we're over the whole "bitcoin is going down!" talk and now we're fighting over which coin is going to be the new world currency?

I just hope bcash gets back up to .2 BTC again so I can dump the rest.

[Icygreen]

Nice! 9200.  Haven't seen that price in over a month.  Getting closer to the edge of the woods it might seem. 
In other BTC related news.... Bitcoin's redheaded stepchild is getting a second life pump BTC/BTG.  Almost reached 1% again.  However still ignored until it ponies up a bit further.

[motoprose]

Nice! 9200.  Haven't seen that price in over a month.  Getting closer to the edge of the woods it might seem. 
In other BTC related news.... Bitcoin's redheaded stepchild is getting a second life pump BTC/BTG.  Almost reached 1% again.  However still ignored until it ponies up a bit further.

Just noticed this while trading and wondering why the site where I was trading on was slowing down to a crawl.
It was all the trades being fulfilled in a short amount of time.
I saw $8940 go all the way to $9200 in less than 15 minutes.
That was the most ground covered I have ever seen bitcoin price do since the Christmas rush when bitcoin was being bought up like there was no tomorrow. All fueled by the sales going on in anticipation for boxing day stores accepting cryptocurrency for some of their sales.

[Torque]

So does the bcash arguing mean that we're over the whole "bitcoin is going down!" talk and now we're fighting over which coin is going to be the new world currency?

Seriously does no one else see the repeating pattern of the trolls showing up and stirring up fresh new drama and FUD, right before Bitcoin is about to rise again? This has happened SOOOO many times now.