MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[ardana123]

i'm still waiting on a SEPA withdrawal from june, i don't believe these fast sepa withdrawals

[Luno]

Nice to hear that some withdrawals are carried out. It depends also a lot on witch bank you are transferring to and which method from what currency. All exchanges have struggled with that!

So reading the article: http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-responds-to-coinlab-lawsuit-with-5-5m-in-counterclaims/

also outlines their plan: getting back in the black by tightening the belt to cover the running deficit this year caused by the money bonded / confiscated.
Second, reaching a settlement with Coinlab, or the remainders thereof! If they can agree on a good legal mediator, they might be able to settle their disagreement on a sensible level out of court.
Thirdly, keeping customer confidence and trading accounts loaded.

When they are able to announce the figure agreed on with Coinlab, Gox's value can be determined. Then if they are still short (bounds between 5M and 14M USD worst case, I  think), they could choose to issue stocks (the authorised way) or attract a few investors. I'm quite sure that a few of the angel investors have considered that or even approached them before.

All that is, so far, only wishful thinking on my behalf, but imagining that the info in the article is correct, a lot of good solutions are available to Gox right now and the rescue might only be a phone call away.

it can possible be argued that Coinlab have had a provable loss of a determinable value, but they have no responsibility to customers funds on Gox now as is? If that's the case Gox signed a very stupid contract, possible not holding water if this goes to court, meaning that customers, as third party, is a commitment for Gox, the remaining business partner. I.e. Coinlab deserted it's own US customers, as I understand it, placing extra costs and capital demands on Gox. An excellent base for a counter claim!

Maybe it's not my business to come with suggestions, but things are absolutely workable for them right now. The article yesterday made a lot of sense!!

Thanks.

[mechs]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

[samson]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

You make a lot of assumptions here

[mechs]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

You make a lot of assumptions here

All reasonable and supported by some known facts and the events which have transpired

[joesmoe2012]

Nice to hear that some withdrawals are carried out. It depends also a lot on witch bank you are transferring to and which method from what currency. All exchanges have struggled with that!

So reading the article: http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-responds-to-coinlab-lawsuit-with-5-5m-in-counterclaims/
 
also outlines their plan: getting back in the black by tightening the belt to cover the running deficit this year caused by the money bonded / confiscated.
Second, reaching a settlement with Coinlab, or the remainders thereof! If they can agree on a good legal mediator, they might be able to settle their disagreement on a sensible level out of court.
Thirdly, keeping customer confidence and trading accounts loaded.

When they are able to announce the figure agreed on with Coinlab, Gox's value can be determined. Then if they are still short (bounds between 5M and 14M USD worst case, I  think), they could choose to issue stocks (the authorised way) or attract a few investors. I'm quite sure that a few of the angel investors have considered that or even approached them before.

All that is, so far, only wishful thinking on my behalf, but imagining that the info in the article is correct, a lot of good solutions are available to Gox right now and the rescue might only be a phone call away.

it can possible be argued that Coinlab have had a provable loss of a determinable value, but they have no responsibility to customers funds on Gox now as is? If that's the case Gox signed a very stupid contract, possible not holding water if this goes to court, meaning that customers, as third party, is a commitment for Gox, the remaining business partner. I.e. Coinlab deserted it's own US customers, as I understand it, placing extra costs and capital demands on Gox. An excellent base for a counter claim!

Maybe it's not my business to come with suggestions, but things are absolutely workable for them right now. The article yesterday made a lot of sense!!

Thanks.

I don't think it makes any difference what bank the wire is to. If we are talking SWIFT wires we are talking SWIFT wires. My bank in particular uses citigroup as the intermediary (which is the bank gox was having issues with). So I think your first statement is incorrect. 

[Luno]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

That's possible too, and I'm kidding myself. yes I have a personal interest in that this ends well. If Gox turns out to be only deceit build by thieves, not only customers will get burnt. This will be a fail of Bitcoin as anything more than drug money! Bitcoin itself will survive unharmed. But the concept of a voluntary decentralized currency as a builder of trust professionally will get hurt on a level visible in the exchange rate!!!

Posting a web article telling one side of the story is easy! Compared to Bitcoinica and Intersango, and even the former famous pyramid schemes around here, the article does not contain any accusations or mud slinging  nor any attempt to flea responsibility. If there was a top 10 credibility list on statements from troubled Bitcoin businessess, Gox would be on top for actually being able to issue a "statement", or what we should call this article, without compromising them self further. True or not, this is so far the most convincing proof of intelligence within a Bitcoin business to date.

[Delerium]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

Lots of massive assumptions here. What you need to understand that if it was a technical issue with a bank, they can't exactly go out on the market and say "hey, who will be our bank" to anyone. Banks don't like bitcoin and those that are willing to host a new bank account for any exchange are likley to ask a lot of questions and also not rush about it. Afaik, Gox are not even close to bankrupt, (far from it).....but anyway, back on topic....

[Nagle]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox.

Mt. Gox does have the obligation to segregate customer funds and have 100% of them on deposit under the Japan Payment Services Act, or guaranteed by a bank. It's appropriate to ask the Japan Financial Services Agency to audit Mt. Gox.

Take a look at how Western Union Money Transfer operates in Japan:

• "Western Union have signed and executed a Guarantee Agreement with the Royal Bank of Scotland (Japan Branch) to ensure that all users of the Western Union Money Transfer service in Japan are protected by the Performance Protection Funds contained in Article 44 of the Money Transfer Business Act."
• "The standard time for completing a money transfer transaction is approximately 10 minutes".
  
• "Western Union seek to resolve all claims related to the Money Transfer process as soon as we can. In case of dis-satisfaction, consumers may contact Japan Payment Service Association with claims and request for Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). Japan Payment Service Association may introduce details of ADR. Please contact 03-3219-0628. The dispute reolution institutions used for this service are: The Tokyo Bar Association: 03-3581-003, The Dai-ichi Tokyo Bar Association: 03-3595-8588 and the Daini Tokyo Bar Association: 03-3581-2249"
  

That's what a legit money transfer company looks like in Japan. Does Mt. Gox look like that?

The "Japan Payment Service Association" is a "self-regulatory association" (like NASDAQ in the US) for the payment services industry. They take complaints about payment service companies. Mt. Gox is supposed to be a member (it's not optional), but I doubt that they are. It's worth raising that issue with the Payment Services Association.

One interesting point of Japanese law is that if a money transfer company goes under, the customers are the first to recover funds; all other creditors then divide up what's left. This is the reverse of US practice, where "unsecured creditors" come last. This also has the implication that creditors of Mt. Gox may be secured creditors, which improves the odds of claims against funds forfeited by Mt. Gox to the US Government.

The point I'm making here is that you don't have to put up with Mt. Gox's excuses. You can apply pressure from several directions and probably get paid.

[zeta1]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

Lots of massive assumptions here. What you need to understand that if it was a technical issue with a bank, they can't exactly go out on the market and say "hey, who will be our bank" to anyone. Banks don't like bitcoin and those that are willing to host a new bank account for any exchange are likley to ask a lot of questions and also not rush about it. Afaik, Gox are not even close to bankrupt, (far from it).....but anyway, back on topic....

I don't think either that MTGOX will be facing bankruptcy anytime soon, they conquered much worse hardship. Still this is a pretty f*cked up situation

[sturle]

i'm still waiting on a SEPA withdrawal from june, i don't believe these fast sepa withdrawals

If you have been waiting for one SEPA withdrawal from june, you are either hiding something (e.g. that you made several withdrawals and have received them one by one 20 days apart), or there was something wrong with your transfer.  What did support tell you? 

[sturle]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.

Why is that in any way obvious?  Have you read the horror stories about Japanese banks on this forum?

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.

And the basis for your claims is?  How come EUR and JPY withdrawals work if MtGox are broke?  5 million is just a part of their profit this year, and they have about 14 million USD in visible bids in the order book.  Even if the 5 million USD which CoinLab and Peter Vessenes stole are lost, they are still only have about 2 million USD to cover (assuming their extra legal costs are less than a million USD, which they should be prior to meeting in court).  And they wouldn't need capital controls to keep 2 millions USD of deposits.  MtGox is still the only exchange where you can spend 2 million USD on BTC without moving the price very much.

[sturle]

I don't think it makes any difference what bank the wire is to. If we are talking SWIFT wires we are talking SWIFT wires. My bank in particular uses citigroup as the intermediary (which is the bank gox was having issues with). So I think your first statement is incorrect.

Annoying colour removed.

Counterexample: I tried using a bank which use Citibank as intermediate for SEPA transfers to transfer money to Intersango.  I was told by the bank they couldn't transfer money to Intersango beacause Citibank wouldn't allow it.  I left the bank immediately of course, and I never had any trouble transferring money to Intersango from other banks.  Since my customer relations with this bank ended after one day, I never got the chance to test it for transfers to MtGox. MtGox use the same bank in Poland that Intersango uses.

[Alpaca Bob]

Wired article on the issue: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/mt-gox/

[sturle]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox.

Mt. Gox does have the obligation to segregate customer funds and have 100% of them on deposit under the Japan Payment Services Act, or guaranteed by a bank. It's appropriate to ask the Japan Financial Services Agency to audit Mt. Gox.

I think you are wrong.  MtGox isn't a financial insistitution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency.  There is no category for companies like MtGox.  Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

[tvbcof]

I expect to pursue relief via legal channels if/when Mt. Gox folds and/or if Mt. Gox remains operation but refuses to take action on my request for a sufficient duration.  I am, however, not a legal expert and do not know the appropriate questions to ask in an attempt to collect information for future action.

What do you consider to be a "sufficient duration"?

Basic rule of collection: "The longer you wait, the less likely you are to get the money owed to you." When a business gets 90 days behind in their payments, they're probably never going to pay without coercion.  Mt. Gox announced their "temporary hiatus" on June 20, 2013.  Today is September 14, 2013 - day 86.

There are lots of options. For amounts up to $10,000, you can sue in Small Claims Court in Delaware. Mt. Gox, to comply with FinCen rules, has a nominal "office" in Delaware for service of process. That makes them subject to U.S. law. You can file a complaint with the US Securities and Exchange Commission, on the grounds that Mt. Gox is acting as an unlicensed broker/dealer in the US. You can get advice on collection of debts in Tokyo from the Japan External Trade Organization, and they can tell you how to file a complaint with the Japan Financial Services Agency.

You can do all of those things simultaneously. Once you start to apply pressure like that, you usually get paid. 

Mt. Gox is in Japan, which is a major trading partner with the US. Financial disputes come up all the time, and they're routinely resolved. The US SEC and the Japan FSA talk to each other; they even have a formal cooperation agreement. It's not Romania.

To answer your question, 'sufficient duration' is currently a quarter or two for me, but it depends more on how interesting the problem is to me relative to other unrelated adventures.

'Getting my money back' is not the driving force.  Any money I put on anything Bitcoin related is considered a likely full loss by me and certainly something I can live without.  That said, I don't like to get fucked.  If the government and/or Peter Vessenes have stolen from Mt. Gox and that is the reason Mt. Gox is not paying me promptly, these parties are effectively stealing from me and I'll be interested in extracting revenge.

As I've said before, the attacks which Mt. Gox has suffered have resulted in my placing a higher degree of confidence in them and led me to believe that they are a net positive in the Bitcoin ecosystem.  Not insofar as that I won't lose money through them, but more that it provides evidence that Mt. Gox is NOT fully in bed with surveillance apparatus and part of a general state sponsored honeypot operation.

The tag-team efforts of the US legal system, financial system, and Coinlabs makes me suspicious that playing a role in a honeypot effort was Coinlabs game, and I'm glad that Mt. Gox deferred from handing their books (sensitive customer data) off to Coinlabs and will be interested to see more as this situation evolves.  Back to my initial point, I would be even more glad if I could provoke some insight into the goings on on the basis of my financial loss.  I'm due to write my first note to Mt. Gox and still struggling to figure out the best questions to ask geared toward accumulating information needed to eventually probe various entities further.

[Luno]

Nice article on WIRED. Getting this out in the open with figures and court documents for all to view, makes this situation shrink to manageable levels of drama. Good for everyone, nicely done!

[lebing]

Nice article on WIRED. Getting this out in the open with figures and court documents for all to view, makes this situation shrink to manageable levels of drama. Good for everyone, nicely done!

which article?

[rampantparanoia]

Wired article on the issue: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/mt-gox/

[Nagle]

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox.

Mt. Gox does have the obligation to segregate customer funds and have 100% of them on deposit under the Japan Payment Services Act, or guaranteed by a bank. It's appropriate to ask the Japan Financial Services Agency to audit Mt. Gox.

I think you are wrong.  MtGox isn't a financial institution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency.  There is no category for companies like MtGox.  Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

That's wishful thinking. Of course they're a financial institution. They take deposits and hold customer money. (And don't pay it back when they should.) If they're lucky, the FSA will just consider them a payment services firm. Those rules aren't hard to comply with, although there's a transaction size limit (1 million yen). If they're not lucky, the FSA will treat them as an unlicensed broker or an unlicensed bank.

In the US (where Mt. Gox does have a legal presence, in Delaware), they're probably a broker/dealer, and need to qualify as a broker/dealer under US law to deal with US customers. That means SEC registration, audits, insurance, capital requirements, and background checks. Read "Who is a broker" from the SEC.