MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[davidspitzer]

Quite clearly the US sees them and will hold them to the financial laws that govern money exchanges. They are akin to any other currency exchange, it matters not that that one of the currencies they deal with is Bitcoin.  However they view themselves and no matter how unique their services, they are classified and will be accountable like any other currency exchange/money transmitter. A lesson painfully learned just recently

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?  Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what?  I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA.  Mutum Sigillum was.  You should read the warrant.  Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.- (the same would be true for a US company  transmitting funds to a japanese financial institution  - if you want to do business with a target country you must comply with their laws
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.


and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

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[sturle]

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?  Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what?  I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

They have a .com website.
If they had a .jp one, it would be different, but with .com they have to comply to some rules.

This must be the most desperate suggestion I've read so far.  thepiratebay.org is still alive, btw.

[davidspitzer]

Maybe this will clear it up  - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

[sturle]

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?  Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what?  I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA.  Mutum Sigillum was.  You should read the warrant.  Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.-
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.

and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

I do US money transmission through secondary companies (banks), and I am not subject to US law.  The banks are subject to US law.  Not me.  I couldn't care less about the laws of the USSA.

Same thing for MtGox.  Mutum Sigillum is subject to US law, and did engage in money transmitting between MtGox and Dwolla.  Dwolla are subject to US law.  Verdian Credit Union and Wells Fargo are subject to US law.  MtGox are not.  MtGox are subject to Japanese law.

Where did you earn that law degree?  Some summer course on Bali?

[sturle]

Maybe this will clear it up  - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

This is clearly wrong.  Mutum Sigillum is much older than MtGox, and not a subsidiary.  MtGox and Mutum Sigillum has the same owner, but one is not the subsidiary of the other.

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

And they didn't at the time.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

You are mixing apples and oranges.  Mutum Sigillum transferred USD, not Bitcoins.

[davidspitzer]

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?  Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what?  I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA.  Mutum Sigillum was.  You should read the warrant.  Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.-
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.

and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

I do US money transmission through secondary companies (banks), and I am not subject to US law.  The banks are subject to US law.  Not me.  I couldn't care less about the laws of the USSA.

Same thing for MtGox.  Mutum Sigillum is subject to US law, and did engage in money transmitting between MtGox and Dwolla.  Dwolla are subject to US law.  Verdian Credit Union and Wells Fargo are subject to US law.  MtGox are not.  MtGox are subject to Japanese law.

Where did you earn that law degree?  Some summer course on Bali?

MTgox is subject to US law if it wishes to do business in in the US. You may not agree with this and that is valid but it does not change the reality of the situation. I see no need to be rude and if you cannot conduct yourself in a civil manner without name calling and divisive come backs then I have no time for you. If you wish to discuss it rationally and respectfully then I will be more then happy to continue.

The bottom line for MTGOX is that they funneled money through a subsidiary in the US to Dwolla and also maintained a Wells Fargo account in the US. The funds in those account were derived from money exchange activities - Funds owned by MTGOX and personal funds of the owner were seized by the US government for failure to register as a money transmitter in the US. If they do not want to be subject to US law then they will need to cease doing business in the US. Whether you or I agree with this position the US government has taken is irrelevant. They will continue to seize money and may hold MTGOX civilly and criminally liable till they are in compliance.

[davidspitzer]

Maybe this will clear it up  - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

This is clearly wrong.  Mutum Sigillum is much older than MtGox, and not a subsidiary.  MtGox and Mutum Sigillum has the same owner, but one is not the subsidiary of the other.

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

And they didn't at the time.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

You are mixing apples and oranges.  Mutum Sigillum transferred USD, not Bitcoins.

once again you may dice and comment as you wish but the US government will continue to hold MTGOX accountable as a currency exchanger and money transmitter - The department of homeland security views them as a money transmitter - this is not my ruling but rather theirs. I am not saying I even agree with it  - but it is a point of fact

[davidspitzer]

More information from the original warrant (please do not quote dissect and tell me where you think I am mistaken as this is direct quotation from the warrants and is the position and opinion of the government agents)

The warrant then notes that “neither Mt. Gox nor the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC, is registered as a Money Service Business.” Such registration with FinCEN — the US Financial Crimes Enforcement Network — is required for money transmitting businesses under US law.

A Maryland-based confidential informant — referred to in the warrant as CI-1 — told government agents he established new  accounts with both Mt. Gox and Dwolla. The informant stated he deposited US funds in his Mt. Gox account, then used Dwolla to exchange those funds for bitcoins. He later used Mt. Gox to exchange the bitcoins back into US dollars, which were credited to his Dwolla account.

“According to bank records, this transfer was completed through the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC,” the warrant states. “This demonstrates that Mutum Sigillum LLC is engaged in a money transmitting business but is not registered as required with FinCEN.”

Bank records showed that “a number of deposits” to Mutum Sigillum’s Wells Fargo account were made via international wire transfers from Japan’s Sumitomo Mitsui Bank in the name of Mt. Gox. Afterward, those funds were “frequently disbursed to Dwolla.” Because Mutum Sigillum transferred those funds without FinCEN registration as a money transmitting business, the contents of its Wells Fargo account “were subject to seizure and forfeiture,” the warrant states.

A seizure warrant for the Wells Fargo account was issued on May 9, 2013.

[Nagle]

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?

Japan is more restrictive than the US in some ways. Until recently, you couldn't do anything with other people's money unless you were a bank. As of 2009, there's the "Payment Services Agency" classification, but that requires registration and audits too. Most cell phone companies in Japan are now also PSAs, so they can send money to and from phones.

Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what?  

Only to ones which deal with US persons. SEC rule: "Foreign broker-dealers that, from outside of the United States, induce or attempt to induce securities transactions by any person in the United States, or that use the means or instrumentalities of interstate commerce of the United States for this purpose, also must register. This includes the use of the internet to offer securities, solicit securities transactions, or advertise investment services to U.S. persons."

Whether Bitcoin is a security is an interesting legal question. One lawyer argues that Bitcoins themselves are not a "security" under US law, but he writes "The securities definitions outlined above might not apply to Bitcoins themselves, but they are flexible enough to apply to Bitcoin exchanges that convert a Bitcoin to real-world currencies."

There's a long history of investment-like schemes crafted to get around SEC regulations. There was, of course, Trendon Shavers' Bitcoin Ponzi scheme. There was a scheme to sell paving stones from Australia, a scheme to sell fractional shares in fruit groves, and even psychic stock predictor. All were found subject to SEC jurisdiction. Companies in China have been fined by the SEC. Being outside the US doesn't help if you do business in the US.

Realistically, if it works like "Customers deposit money and can't get it back", some financial regulator has the authority to bring the hammer down. The US SEC and the Japan FSA have a formal cooperation agreement.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA.  Mutum Sigillum was.  You should read the warrant.  Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

That's FinCen. They're concerned about money laundering. The SEC is concerned about ripping off investors.

[sturle]

once again you may dice and comment as you wish but the US government will continue to hold MTGOX accountable as a currency exchanger and money transmitter - The department of homeland security views them as a money transmitter - this is not my ruling but rather theirs. I am not saying I even agree with it  - but it is a point of fact

You are lying again.

First of all DHS made no ruling against MtGox.  Just Mutum Sigillum.  At least in all the papers I have read.  If you have other information, please present it.  If you can't present evidence of the ruling, which you claim is a fact, I suggest you withdraw your claim.

Who cares if DHS thinks MtGox is a money transmitter?  MtGox operates in Japan, and are subject to Japanese laws.  Not USSA laws.  This is even stated in the warrant.  They only went after Mutum Sigillum, wrongly claimed to be a subsidiary of MtGox, and not MtGox.

[davidspitzer]

once again you may dice and comment as you wish but the US government will continue to hold MTGOX accountable as a currency exchanger and money transmitter - The department of homeland security views them as a money transmitter - this is not my ruling but rather theirs. I am not saying I even agree with it  - but it is a point of fact

You are lying again.

First of all DHS made no ruling against MtGox.  Just Mutum Sigillum.  At least in all the papers I have read.  If you have other information, please present it.  If you can't present evidence of the ruling, which you claim is a fact, I suggest you withdraw your claim.

Who cares if DHS thinks MtGox is a money transmitter?  MtGox operates in Japan, and are subject to Japanese laws.  Not USSA laws.  This is even stated in the warrant.  They only went after Mutum Sigillum, wrongly claimed to be a subsidiary of MtGox, and not MtGox.

Those were direct quotes from the warrants - so I have nothing further to say. I cannot address your fundamental refusal to see what is plainly stated and that entities conducting business in the US are subject to US law. Please feel free to rant on if you wish but it will not get MTGOX back its  Millions of dollars that were seized because they felt they could do business in the US and were not subject to US law (like you do).

[sturle]

More information from the original warrant (please do not quote dissect and tell me where you think I am mistaken as this is direct quotation from the warrants and is the position and opinion of the government agents)

The warrant then notes that “neither Mt. Gox nor the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC, is registered as a Money Service Business.” Such registration with FinCEN — the US Financial Crimes Enforcement Network — is required for money transmitting businesses under US law.

This just states the facts.  It does not suggest that MtGox are able to apply for a MSB licence directly.  For that MtGox would need a subsidary in the USSA, which they didn't have at the time, and that subsidiary would have to apply.  Am I not right?

“According to bank records, this transfer was completed through the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC,” the warrant states. “This demonstrates that Mutum Sigillum LLC is engaged in a money transmitting business but is not registered as required with FinCEN.”

See?  Exactly what I have been saying.  Mutum Sigillum LLC is engaged in a money transmitting business.  They did not claim the same for MtGox.

... Because Mutum Sigillum transferred those funds without FinCEN registration as a money transmitting business, the contents of its Wells Fargo account “were subject to seizure and forfeiture,” the warrant states.

And again.  Mutum Sigillum are claimed to be in the money transmitting business.  Not MtGox.

Again: Which summer school did you attend to get a law degree?

[davidspitzer]

Ok so now that we are done with (at least I am "ignored") the rantings of sturle, the actual topic here is the gathering delays in money wire transfers out of MTGOX. Has anyone successfully completed an international wire transfer from MTGOX post the US fed issues? I never understand why people get so worked up over discussions online, which then leads them to forget how to interact with people in a civil manner.

[sturle]

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws?

Japan is more restrictive than the US in some ways. Until recently, you couldn't do anything with other people's money unless you were a bank. As of 2009, there's the "Payment Services Agency" classification, but that requires registration and audits too. Most cell phone companies in Japan are now also PSAs, so they can send money to and from phones.

Sending money to and from phones is money transfer, and of course it applies.  Do pawn shops need a registration?

[de_xt]

has anyone gone to the IRC chat channel to ask what is current status?

Current status for SEPA.  Unfortunately it looks like the queue is getting longer again.  People have discovered that SEPA works:

• Lower than 400 EUR about a week
• Higher amounts take about 10 business days (i.e. two weeks)
• 20 business days between withdrawals

All SEPA withdrawals from August and earlier have been processed, with the exception of some users who had more than one withdrawal in the queue.

New information: 400 EUR is dynamic (was 1000 EUR last time I talked to support).  It depends on how they can fill the daily quota most efficiently.

Thanks for the withdrawal status update. This is probably why my 631 EUR withdrawal is stuck since 2 weeks ago. I asked support to check if there was any problem with the bank details or the like and this was their vague, copy-paste answer:

Alex Support, Sep 14 05:16 (JST):
Hello,

Thank you for contacting us.

Please be noted that all euro withdrawal are currently taking up to 3 weeks to process due to the sheer volume of withdrawal requests in queue. We will keep you on update once it got processed from our end.

We expect a kind co-operation from your side on this time delay.

So no news other than the increased 3-week delay for EUR withdrawal (it was 2 weeks before).

[sturle]

Ok so now that we are done with (at least I am ) the rantings of sturle, the actual topic here is the gathering delays in money wire transfers out of MTGOX. Has anyone successfully completed an international wire transfer from MTGOX post the US fed issues?

Yes, there are many reports in this thread and in other threads on this forum.  And SEPA wire transfers, which are a special case of international wires, work.

I never understand why people get so worked up over discussions online, which then leads them to forget how to interact with people in a civil manner

All lawyers I know, which are a few, are always very careful to make sure their statements are accurate and correct.  So much it can be very annoying at times.  If I claim they are wrong, they will just repeat the statement and tell me what I misunderstood, or refer to a law which they often know by heart word for word in it's original spelling.  You are the opposite of the lawyers I know.  You make statements which you either know are wrong or at last very inaccurate, and you don't make any effort to be accurate or correct.  Perhaps this is something you learn in shady law schools in the USSA.  A shame in my opinion.  No wonder lawyers are held in rather low regard in the USSA, judging from all the lawyer jokes.

[sturle]

There's a long history of investment-like schemes crafted to get around SEC regulations. There was, of course, Trendon Shavers' Bitcoin Ponzi scheme. There was a scheme to sell paving stones from Australia, a scheme to sell fractional shares in fruit groves, and even psychic stock predictor. All were found subject to SEC jurisdiction. Companies in China have been fined by the SEC. Being outside the US doesn't help if you do business in the US.

Those were cases of fraud, and illegal in all the involved countries.

Realistically, if it works like "Customers deposit money and can't get it back", some financial regulator has the authority to bring the hammer down. The US SEC and the Japan FSA have a formal cooperation agreement.

The US SEC complaining to Japan FSA about a problem created by the DHS?  Would be fun to see the response.

[Nagle]

The "hiatus on withdrawals" started on June 20, 2013. 90 days have gone by.

90 days is an important milestone. As a rule of thumb, a business creditor that's 90 days behind will probably never pay without coercion. That's when you send an account to a collection agency.

There are ways to apply pressure to Mt. Gox.  If Mt. Gox owes you money, file complaints with the Japan Financial Services Agency, the US Securities and Exchange Commission, the small claims court in Delaware, and the Japan Payment Service Association (website for complaints: www.s-kessai.jp). Contact reporters at Forbes, Business Week, the Wall Street Journal, and Nikkei Sangyo Shimbun. Raise hell until you get paid everything you're owed or Mt. Gox's CEO is in jail.

It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox has problems with their bank. That's their problem.

If you're out of Mt. Gox but paid a premium to get out, a suit in Delaware Small Claims Court for any extra fees you paid might work. There's a legal concept, the "pre-existing duty" rule, which usually applies when someone raises the price on something they already agreed to do.

You don't have to put up with being jerked around. Fight back.

[mechs]

The "hiatus on withdrawals" started on June 20, 2013. 90 days have gone by.

90 days is an important milestone. As a rule of thumb, a business creditor that's 90 days behind will probably never pay without coercion. That's when you send an account to a collection agency.

There are ways to apply pressure to Mt. Gox.  If Mt. Gox owes you money, file complaints with the Japan Financial Services Agency, the US Securities and Exchange Commission, the small claims court in Delaware, and the Japan Payment Service Association (website for complaints: www.s-kessai.jp). Contact reporters at Forbes, Business Week, the Wall Street Journal, and Nikkei Sangyo Shimbun. Raise hell until you get paid everything you're owed or Mt. Gox's CEO is in jail.

It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox has problems with their bank. That's their problem.

If you're out of Mt. Gox but paid a premium to get out, a suit in Delaware Small Claims Court for any extra fees you paid might work. There's a legal concept, the "pre-existing duty" rule, which usually applies when someone raises the price on something they already agreed to do.

You don't have to put up with being jerked around. Fight back.

I really feel this is more a fractional reserve issue than a bank issue.  Like any fractional reserve situation  you want to be the first one out before they declare insolvency.  Being a pain in their ass as suggested here is good advice.

[bitcoinbboyce]

Finally received a 5 figure SEPA transfer from July 4th