Brandon Cheliak
Member
 Offline
Activity: 171
Merit: 10
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October 09, 2017, 07:49:19 PM |
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Atomic Swap Between Bitcoin and Ethereum (on a test net)So it looks like the Altcoin Exchange team have successfully swapped BTC for ETH in an atomic swap. From my understanding of the process, this is a direct swap enabled and enforced by code without any requirement for a third party. https://news.bitcoin.com/altcoin-exchange-performs-first-atomic-swap-between-bitcoin-and-ethereum/If this holds up to scrutiny, survives the testing process, and is brought mainstream, it is a game changer in the cryptocurrency industry. "The Altcoin Exchange team transferred 0.12345 ETH for 0.12345 BTC using an on-chain open source process. Altcoin Exchange plans to launch the project’s Github repository this Tuesday, the company’s CEO Andrew Gazdecki told news.Bitcoin.com"When China told their exchanges to shut down, they also demanded that their files be sent in to the government on compact discs. I'm romantic enough to be disappointed that the cryptocurrency files weren't demanded on punch cards. But even so, exchangeless swaps mean that personal details stored by the exchange when you login, aren't linked to your swap. It also has the ability to hamper or completely obstruct other attempts to regulate aspects of the cryptocurrency industry. If you can swap bitcoin for ethereum without an exchange, then you can invest in ICOs from a country that is trying to block them by closing exchanges. Exchanges will still be required for match making purposes. But because that is all they might be doing, setting up and running an exchange would be much cheaper, and not require users to trust them, or even have an account with them. It would be more like a search engine for open offers. But ultimately, I believe the most significant effect will be increased public trust in cryptocurrencies. Many people who are concerned about investing in cryptocurrency worry about news of bitcoin being stolen. But stealing a cryptocurrency is much harder than stealing cash or property. The news of stolen bitcoins comes from exchanges, and many believe they are inside jobs. If exchanges give way to atomic swaps made simple by building the functionality into wallets, we won't be hearing any more news about hacked exchanges. Trust in cryptocurrencies will rise dramatically. I was certain I'd never leave my money in an exchange because of all the negative press. But when I read that DNotes Vault held an equivalent duplicate balance in cold storage, and I looked up that address and found the DNotes sitting there, I decided to trust them. And while I understand that a DNotes Global Inc run exchange is on the road map, if atomic swaps remove the need for this, I don't see it harming their long-term vision of making DNotes a cryptocurrency for daily use. It would just mean someone solved a problem along that journey. I'd be interested to know if provisions to enable atomic swaps have been designed into DNotes2.0 Thanks for sharing the link with great comments. This is another technology advancement that will make it impossible for the government to shut down decentralized digital currency. However, I don’t think that it will put the likes of Coinbase and Poloniex Exchange out of business anytime soon. We have been studying both decentralized and full-services exchanges closely. At this point, I am inclined to believe that there is a need for both - integrated with various other exchanges to include the exchange of fiat currencies as well. DNotes’ model is to use the best technology that is most beneficial to our users and stakeholders. Our current ecosystem coupled with decentralized/centralized exchange, bank, partner banks, and multi-currencies card will differentiate us from our competition. Central to its success is the trusted brand of DNotes. After trust is; convenience and ease of use. Those factors will remain as our focus. How do you guys think regulators might react to decentralized exchange models? |
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DNotes (OP)
Legendary
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Activity: 1932
Merit: 1111
DNotes
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October 09, 2017, 08:28:22 PM |
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Atomic Swap Between Bitcoin and Ethereum (on a test net)So it looks like the Altcoin Exchange team have successfully swapped BTC for ETH in an atomic swap. From my understanding of the process, this is a direct swap enabled and enforced by code without any requirement for a third party. https://news.bitcoin.com/altcoin-exchange-performs-first-atomic-swap-between-bitcoin-and-ethereum/If this holds up to scrutiny, survives the testing process, and is brought mainstream, it is a game changer in the cryptocurrency industry. "The Altcoin Exchange team transferred 0.12345 ETH for 0.12345 BTC using an on-chain open source process. Altcoin Exchange plans to launch the project’s Github repository this Tuesday, the company’s CEO Andrew Gazdecki told news.Bitcoin.com"When China told their exchanges to shut down, they also demanded that their files be sent in to the government on compact discs. I'm romantic enough to be disappointed that the cryptocurrency files weren't demanded on punch cards. But even so, exchangeless swaps mean that personal details stored by the exchange when you login, aren't linked to your swap. It also has the ability to hamper or completely obstruct other attempts to regulate aspects of the cryptocurrency industry. If you can swap bitcoin for ethereum without an exchange, then you can invest in ICOs from a country that is trying to block them by closing exchanges. Exchanges will still be required for match making purposes. But because that is all they might be doing, setting up and running an exchange would be much cheaper, and not require users to trust them, or even have an account with them. It would be more like a search engine for open offers. But ultimately, I believe the most significant effect will be increased public trust in cryptocurrencies. Many people who are concerned about investing in cryptocurrency worry about news of bitcoin being stolen. But stealing a cryptocurrency is much harder than stealing cash or property. The news of stolen bitcoins comes from exchanges, and many believe they are inside jobs. If exchanges give way to atomic swaps made simple by building the functionality into wallets, we won't be hearing any more news about hacked exchanges. Trust in cryptocurrencies will rise dramatically. I was certain I'd never leave my money in an exchange because of all the negative press. But when I read that DNotes Vault held an equivalent duplicate balance in cold storage, and I looked up that address and found the DNotes sitting there, I decided to trust them. And while I understand that a DNotes Global Inc run exchange is on the road map, if atomic swaps remove the need for this, I don't see it harming their long-term vision of making DNotes a cryptocurrency for daily use. It would just mean someone solved a problem along that journey. I'd be interested to know if provisions to enable atomic swaps have been designed into DNotes2.0 Thanks for sharing the link with great comments. This is another technology advancement that will make it impossible for the government to shut down decentralized digital currency. However, I don’t think that it will put the likes of Coinbase and Poloniex Exchange out of business anytime soon. We have been studying both decentralized and full-services exchanges closely. At this point, I am inclined to believe that there is a need for both - integrated with various other exchanges to include the exchange of fiat currencies as well. DNotes’ model is to use the best technology that is most beneficial to our users and stakeholders. Our current ecosystem coupled with decentralized/centralized exchange, bank, partner banks, and multi-currencies card will differentiate us from our competition. Central to its success is the trusted brand of DNotes. After trust is; convenience and ease of use. Those factors will remain as our focus. How do you guys think regulators might react to decentralized exchange models? There will likely be push back as there is no central authority there is no one to report back on the users, but ultimately I don't believe they will try to block it. At some point the currency has to reach an off ramp into the real world, whether that be a bank, a fiat exchange, or a store. Live exchanges between users will only go so far before those coins reach an off ramp. The data is all there, on the blockchain, and eventually reaching some form of third party. At least for now. The rules and regulations may have to adapt to new technologies, and that has been true since the beginning of organized society, and will continue for as long as organized society exists. There is no reason, other than fear of the unknown or misunderstanding, to attempt to block new technologies because it's difficult to put rules and regulations in place. Rules and regulations are there to serve people and what they want, not to hinder them. |
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TimMarsh
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 187
Merit: 100
Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.
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October 10, 2017, 05:52:37 AM |
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Atomic Swap Between Bitcoin and Ethereum (on a test net)So it looks like the Altcoin Exchange team have successfully swapped BTC for ETH in an atomic swap. From my understanding of the process, this is a direct swap enabled and enforced by code without any requirement for a third party. https://news.bitcoin.com/altcoin-exchange-performs-first-atomic-swap-between-bitcoin-and-ethereum/If this holds up to scrutiny, survives the testing process, and is brought mainstream, it is a game changer in the cryptocurrency industry. "The Altcoin Exchange team transferred 0.12345 ETH for 0.12345 BTC using an on-chain open source process. Altcoin Exchange plans to launch the project’s Github repository this Tuesday, the company’s CEO Andrew Gazdecki told news.Bitcoin.com"When China told their exchanges to shut down, they also demanded that their files be sent in to the government on compact discs. I'm romantic enough to be disappointed that the cryptocurrency files weren't demanded on punch cards. But even so, exchangeless swaps mean that personal details stored by the exchange when you login, aren't linked to your swap. It also has the ability to hamper or completely obstruct other attempts to regulate aspects of the cryptocurrency industry. If you can swap bitcoin for ethereum without an exchange, then you can invest in ICOs from a country that is trying to block them by closing exchanges. Exchanges will still be required for match making purposes. But because that is all they might be doing, setting up and running an exchange would be much cheaper, and not require users to trust them, or even have an account with them. It would be more like a search engine for open offers. But ultimately, I believe the most significant effect will be increased public trust in cryptocurrencies. Many people who are concerned about investing in cryptocurrency worry about news of bitcoin being stolen. But stealing a cryptocurrency is much harder than stealing cash or property. The news of stolen bitcoins comes from exchanges, and many believe they are inside jobs. If exchanges give way to atomic swaps made simple by building the functionality into wallets, we won't be hearing any more news about hacked exchanges. Trust in cryptocurrencies will rise dramatically. I was certain I'd never leave my money in an exchange because of all the negative press. But when I read that DNotes Vault held an equivalent duplicate balance in cold storage, and I looked up that address and found the DNotes sitting there, I decided to trust them. And while I understand that a DNotes Global Inc run exchange is on the road map, if atomic swaps remove the need for this, I don't see it harming their long-term vision of making DNotes a cryptocurrency for daily use. It would just mean someone solved a problem along that journey. I'd be interested to know if provisions to enable atomic swaps have been designed into DNotes2.0 Thanks for sharing the link with great comments. This is another technology advancement that will make it impossible for the government to shut down decentralized digital currency. However, I don’t think that it will put the likes of Coinbase and Poloniex Exchange out of business anytime soon. We have been studying both decentralized and full-services exchanges closely. At this point, I am inclined to believe that there is a need for both - integrated with various other exchanges to include the exchange of fiat currencies as well. DNotes’ model is to use the best technology that is most beneficial to our users and stakeholders. Our current ecosystem coupled with decentralized/centralized exchange, bank, partner banks, and multi-currencies card will differentiate us from our competition. Central to its success is the trusted brand of DNotes. After trust is; convenience and ease of use. Those factors will remain as our focus. How do you guys think regulators might react to decentralized exchange models? There will likely be push back as there is no central authority there is no one to report back on the users, but ultimately I don't believe they will try to block it. At some point the currency has to reach an off ramp into the real world, whether that be a bank, a fiat exchange, or a store. Live exchanges between users will only go so far before those coins reach an off ramp. The data is all there, on the blockchain, and eventually reaching some form of third party. At least for now. The rules and regulations may have to adapt to new technologies, and that has been true since the beginning of organized society, and will continue for as long as organized society exists. There is no reason, other than fear of the unknown or misunderstanding, to attempt to block new technologies because it's difficult to put rules and regulations in place. Rules and regulations are there to serve people and what they want, not to hinder them. I completely agree. Regulators will want to push back. But the reason they will want to push back is the very reason that they can't. Because it is decentralised there are too many semi-anonymous actors to efficiently shutdown. And it would be very difficult to legislate a criminal charge for exchanging directly while not criminalising exchanging via a third party. So direct exchanges are hard to prevent and hard to punish. I also like how you simplified the problem with on and off ramps. Where these are purchases of services, the uniqueness of both service and provider can lead to options for identification and control. But where the service is exchange into fiat currency, it is much harder to control. I could offer to transfer a value of bitcoin into a bitcoin address after payment of fiat currency via a wire transfer. There is no more of a trust issue here than there is walking into a back alley in a foreign country to get a better exchange rate for hard cash. I remember when that was such a booming industry in India that the exchange rates and trust levels were so close, you'd make your decision on which one gave you the best cup of chai while you waited. In fact online trust levels can be much higher while retaining anonymity with the use of PGP encryption. In hand to hand exchanges, you learn to trust an alley, maybe even a face or a runner. There is no reputation beyond personal experience and possibly a tiny circle of trust. But with PGP, you could gain a strong reputation for an email address that does not link to a real world actor. This email address would exist on a PGP keyserver with a public key. Private Fiat to Crypto:1) Search online for the most trusted bitcoin to fiat email address. Is there already a Reddit channel for that? 2) Send a proposal to that email address from your own burner email address, encrypted with the public key you got from the keyserver. This encrypted email address contains your second burner email address. 3) Receive at the second email address a response from an unknown email address, but containing acceptance of the decrypted proposal. 4) Check that the PGP signature in the acceptance matches that with the good reputation, and wire transfer to the account provided. 5) Either receive the Bitcoin after the successful wire-transfer, or use your online reputation to trash their email's reputation in the Reddit channel. Alternatively, use https://telegram.org/ for the whole process after finding a trusted telegram identity on Reddit. Eventually there will be websites which profit from banner advertising by curating a list of fiat providers and their reputation with a hyperlink to their telegram addresses. Once atomic swaps are safe and common, the big resistance to using a private on or off ramp like this is the cost of wire transfers, or other fiat transfer services. But I suspect that these services are only so expensive because the fiat system is so dysfunctional and monopolised. As these services respond to the competitive pressure of fast and cheap value exchange via cryptocurrencies, their prices are certain to fall dramatically. Yes, I'm saying sell your shares in Western Union. Even so, providing semi-anonymous on and off ramps for fiat exchange will always be more expensive than the big exchanges with direct agreements and bulk rates with the fiat gatekeepers. So to answer your question more directly Brandon, I think regulators will do very little to directly impact atomic swaps. At a deeper, more conspiratorial level, I believe that we'll see a lot of scare campaigns, negative media, and so on that vilifies atomic swaps and attempts to make the broader consumer base distrustful of them. Of course the Streisand Effect will make this backfire by instantly raising public awareness of this service. |
Cryptocurrencies will level the playing field. I'm paid to write, but not paid to promote.
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Brandon Cheliak
Member
Offline
Activity: 171
Merit: 10
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October 10, 2017, 12:18:51 PM |
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Atomic Swap Between Bitcoin and Ethereum (on a test net)So it looks like the Altcoin Exchange team have successfully swapped BTC for ETH in an atomic swap. From my understanding of the process, this is a direct swap enabled and enforced by code without any requirement for a third party. https://news.bitcoin.com/altcoin-exchange-performs-first-atomic-swap-between-bitcoin-and-ethereum/If this holds up to scrutiny, survives the testing process, and is brought mainstream, it is a game changer in the cryptocurrency industry. "The Altcoin Exchange team transferred 0.12345 ETH for 0.12345 BTC using an on-chain open source process. Altcoin Exchange plans to launch the project’s Github repository this Tuesday, the company’s CEO Andrew Gazdecki told news.Bitcoin.com"When China told their exchanges to shut down, they also demanded that their files be sent in to the government on compact discs. I'm romantic enough to be disappointed that the cryptocurrency files weren't demanded on punch cards. But even so, exchangeless swaps mean that personal details stored by the exchange when you login, aren't linked to your swap. It also has the ability to hamper or completely obstruct other attempts to regulate aspects of the cryptocurrency industry. If you can swap bitcoin for ethereum without an exchange, then you can invest in ICOs from a country that is trying to block them by closing exchanges. Exchanges will still be required for match making purposes. But because that is all they might be doing, setting up and running an exchange would be much cheaper, and not require users to trust them, or even have an account with them. It would be more like a search engine for open offers. But ultimately, I believe the most significant effect will be increased public trust in cryptocurrencies. Many people who are concerned about investing in cryptocurrency worry about news of bitcoin being stolen. But stealing a cryptocurrency is much harder than stealing cash or property. The news of stolen bitcoins comes from exchanges, and many believe they are inside jobs. If exchanges give way to atomic swaps made simple by building the functionality into wallets, we won't be hearing any more news about hacked exchanges. Trust in cryptocurrencies will rise dramatically. I was certain I'd never leave my money in an exchange because of all the negative press. But when I read that DNotes Vault held an equivalent duplicate balance in cold storage, and I looked up that address and found the DNotes sitting there, I decided to trust them. And while I understand that a DNotes Global Inc run exchange is on the road map, if atomic swaps remove the need for this, I don't see it harming their long-term vision of making DNotes a cryptocurrency for daily use. It would just mean someone solved a problem along that journey. I'd be interested to know if provisions to enable atomic swaps have been designed into DNotes2.0 Thanks for sharing the link with great comments. This is another technology advancement that will make it impossible for the government to shut down decentralized digital currency. However, I don’t think that it will put the likes of Coinbase and Poloniex Exchange out of business anytime soon. We have been studying both decentralized and full-services exchanges closely. At this point, I am inclined to believe that there is a need for both - integrated with various other exchanges to include the exchange of fiat currencies as well. DNotes’ model is to use the best technology that is most beneficial to our users and stakeholders. Our current ecosystem coupled with decentralized/centralized exchange, bank, partner banks, and multi-currencies card will differentiate us from our competition. Central to its success is the trusted brand of DNotes. After trust is; convenience and ease of use. Those factors will remain as our focus. How do you guys think regulators might react to decentralized exchange models? There will likely be push back as there is no central authority there is no one to report back on the users, but ultimately I don't believe they will try to block it. At some point the currency has to reach an off ramp into the real world, whether that be a bank, a fiat exchange, or a store. Live exchanges between users will only go so far before those coins reach an off ramp. The data is all there, on the blockchain, and eventually reaching some form of third party. At least for now. The rules and regulations may have to adapt to new technologies, and that has been true since the beginning of organized society, and will continue for as long as organized society exists. There is no reason, other than fear of the unknown or misunderstanding, to attempt to block new technologies because it's difficult to put rules and regulations in place. Rules and regulations are there to serve people and what they want, not to hinder them. I completely agree. Regulators will want to push back. But the reason they will want to push back is the very reason that they can't. Because it is decentralised there are too many semi-anonymous actors to efficiently shutdown. And it would be very difficult to legislate a criminal charge for exchanging directly while not criminalising exchanging via a third party. So direct exchanges are hard to prevent and hard to punish. I also like how you simplified the problem with on and off ramps. Where these are purchases of services, the uniqueness of both service and provider can lead to options for identification and control. But where the service is exchange into fiat currency, it is much harder to control. I could offer to transfer a value of bitcoin into a bitcoin address after payment of fiat currency via a wire transfer. There is no more of a trust issue here than there is walking into a back alley in a foreign country to get a better exchange rate for hard cash. I remember when that was such a booming industry in India that the exchange rates and trust levels were so close, you'd make your decision on which one gave you the best cup of chai while you waited. In fact online trust levels can be much higher while retaining anonymity with the use of PGP encryption. In hand to hand exchanges, you learn to trust an alley, maybe even a face or a runner. There is no reputation beyond personal experience and possibly a tiny circle of trust. But with PGP, you could gain a strong reputation for an email address that does not link to a real world actor. This email address would exist on a PGP keyserver with a public key. Private Fiat to Crypto:1) Search online for the most trusted bitcoin to fiat email address. Is there already a Reddit channel for that? 2) Send a proposal to that email address from your own burner email address, encrypted with the public key you got from the keyserver. This encrypted email address contains your second burner email address. 3) Receive at the second email address a response from an unknown email address, but containing acceptance of the decrypted proposal. 4) Check that the PGP signature in the acceptance matches that with the good reputation, and wire transfer to the account provided. 5) Either receive the Bitcoin after the successful wire-transfer, or use your online reputation to trash their email's reputation in the Reddit channel. Alternatively, use https://telegram.org/ for the whole process after finding a trusted telegram identity on Reddit. Eventually there will be websites which profit from banner advertising by curating a list of fiat providers and their reputation with a hyperlink to their telegram addresses. Once atomic swaps are safe and common, the big resistance to using a private on or off ramp like this is the cost of wire transfers, or other fiat transfer services. But I suspect that these services are only so expensive because the fiat system is so dysfunctional and monopolised. As these services respond to the competitive pressure of fast and cheap value exchange via cryptocurrencies, their prices are certain to fall dramatically. Yes, I'm saying sell your shares in Western Union. Even so, providing semi-anonymous on and off ramps for fiat exchange will always be more expensive than the big exchanges with direct agreements and bulk rates with the fiat gatekeepers. So to answer your question more directly Brandon, I think regulators will do very little to directly impact atomic swaps. At a deeper, more conspiratorial level, I believe that we'll see a lot of scare campaigns, negative media, and so on that vilifies atomic swaps and attempts to make the broader consumer base distrustful of them. Of course the Streisand Effect will make this backfire by instantly raising public awareness of this service. Thanks for the thorough answer Tim and I hope you're right. The only problem I see with online trust levels is that they can be faked (or unduly raised) to give the appearance of trustworthiness. I will also give the centralized services this, it is exponentially easier to match buyers and sellers, but on the other hand it's good for people to have multiple options so they can choose a method that best suits their needs. |
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Dyna
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1060
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October 10, 2017, 02:40:31 PM |
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Atomic Swap Between Bitcoin and Ethereum (on a test net)So it looks like the Altcoin Exchange team have successfully swapped BTC for ETH in an atomic swap. From my understanding of the process, this is a direct swap enabled and enforced by code without any requirement for a third party. https://news.bitcoin.com/altcoin-exchange-performs-first-atomic-swap-between-bitcoin-and-ethereum/If this holds up to scrutiny, survives the testing process, and is brought mainstream, it is a game changer in the cryptocurrency industry. "The Altcoin Exchange team transferred 0.12345 ETH for 0.12345 BTC using an on-chain open source process. Altcoin Exchange plans to launch the project’s Github repository this Tuesday, the company’s CEO Andrew Gazdecki told news.Bitcoin.com"When China told their exchanges to shut down, they also demanded that their files be sent in to the government on compact discs. I'm romantic enough to be disappointed that the cryptocurrency files weren't demanded on punch cards. But even so, exchangeless swaps mean that personal details stored by the exchange when you login, aren't linked to your swap. It also has the ability to hamper or completely obstruct other attempts to regulate aspects of the cryptocurrency industry. If you can swap bitcoin for ethereum without an exchange, then you can invest in ICOs from a country that is trying to block them by closing exchanges. Exchanges will still be required for match making purposes. But because that is all they might be doing, setting up and running an exchange would be much cheaper, and not require users to trust them, or even have an account with them. It would be more like a search engine for open offers. But ultimately, I believe the most significant effect will be increased public trust in cryptocurrencies. Many people who are concerned about investing in cryptocurrency worry about news of bitcoin being stolen. But stealing a cryptocurrency is much harder than stealing cash or property. The news of stolen bitcoins comes from exchanges, and many believe they are inside jobs. If exchanges give way to atomic swaps made simple by building the functionality into wallets, we won't be hearing any more news about hacked exchanges. Trust in cryptocurrencies will rise dramatically. I was certain I'd never leave my money in an exchange because of all the negative press. But when I read that DNotes Vault held an equivalent duplicate balance in cold storage, and I looked up that address and found the DNotes sitting there, I decided to trust them. And while I understand that a DNotes Global Inc run exchange is on the road map, if atomic swaps remove the need for this, I don't see it harming their long-term vision of making DNotes a cryptocurrency for daily use. It would just mean someone solved a problem along that journey. I'd be interested to know if provisions to enable atomic swaps have been designed into DNotes2.0 Thanks for sharing the link with great comments. This is another technology advancement that will make it impossible for the government to shut down decentralized digital currency. However, I don’t think that it will put the likes of Coinbase and Poloniex Exchange out of business anytime soon. We have been studying both decentralized and full-services exchanges closely. At this point, I am inclined to believe that there is a need for both - integrated with various other exchanges to include the exchange of fiat currencies as well. DNotes’ model is to use the best technology that is most beneficial to our users and stakeholders. Our current ecosystem coupled with decentralized/centralized exchange, bank, partner banks, and multi-currencies card will differentiate us from our competition. Central to its success is the trusted brand of DNotes. After trust is; convenience and ease of use. Those factors will remain as our focus. How do you guys think regulators might react to decentralized exchange models? There will likely be push back as there is no central authority there is no one to report back on the users, but ultimately I don't believe they will try to block it. At some point the currency has to reach an off ramp into the real world, whether that be a bank, a fiat exchange, or a store. Live exchanges between users will only go so far before those coins reach an off ramp. The data is all there, on the blockchain, and eventually reaching some form of third party. At least for now. The rules and regulations may have to adapt to new technologies, and that has been true since the beginning of organized society, and will continue for as long as organized society exists. There is no reason, other than fear of the unknown or misunderstanding, to attempt to block new technologies because it's difficult to put rules and regulations in place. Rules and regulations are there to serve people and what they want, not to hinder them. I completely agree. Regulators will want to push back. But the reason they will want to push back is the very reason that they can't. Because it is decentralised there are too many semi-anonymous actors to efficiently shutdown. And it would be very difficult to legislate a criminal charge for exchanging directly while not criminalising exchanging via a third party. So direct exchanges are hard to prevent and hard to punish. I also like how you simplified the problem with on and off ramps. Where these are purchases of services, the uniqueness of both service and provider can lead to options for identification and control. But where the service is exchange into fiat currency, it is much harder to control. I could offer to transfer a value of bitcoin into a bitcoin address after payment of fiat currency via a wire transfer. There is no more of a trust issue here than there is walking into a back alley in a foreign country to get a better exchange rate for hard cash. I remember when that was such a booming industry in India that the exchange rates and trust levels were so close, you'd make your decision on which one gave you the best cup of chai while you waited. In fact online trust levels can be much higher while retaining anonymity with the use of PGP encryption. In hand to hand exchanges, you learn to trust an alley, maybe even a face or a runner. There is no reputation beyond personal experience and possibly a tiny circle of trust. But with PGP, you could gain a strong reputation for an email address that does not link to a real world actor. This email address would exist on a PGP keyserver with a public key. Private Fiat to Crypto:1) Search online for the most trusted bitcoin to fiat email address. Is there already a Reddit channel for that? 2) Send a proposal to that email address from your own burner email address, encrypted with the public key you got from the keyserver. This encrypted email address contains your second burner email address. 3) Receive at the second email address a response from an unknown email address, but containing acceptance of the decrypted proposal. 4) Check that the PGP signature in the acceptance matches that with the good reputation, and wire transfer to the account provided. 5) Either receive the Bitcoin after the successful wire-transfer, or use your online reputation to trash their email's reputation in the Reddit channel. Alternatively, use https://telegram.org/ for the whole process after finding a trusted telegram identity on Reddit. Eventually there will be websites which profit from banner advertising by curating a list of fiat providers and their reputation with a hyperlink to their telegram addresses. Once atomic swaps are safe and common, the big resistance to using a private on or off ramp like this is the cost of wire transfers, or other fiat transfer services. But I suspect that these services are only so expensive because the fiat system is so dysfunctional and monopolised. As these services respond to the competitive pressure of fast and cheap value exchange via cryptocurrencies, their prices are certain to fall dramatically. Yes, I'm saying sell your shares in Western Union. Even so, providing semi-anonymous on and off ramps for fiat exchange will always be more expensive than the big exchanges with direct agreements and bulk rates with the fiat gatekeepers. So to answer your question more directly Brandon, I think regulators will do very little to directly impact atomic swaps. At a deeper, more conspiratorial level, I believe that we'll see a lot of scare campaigns, negative media, and so on that vilifies atomic swaps and attempts to make the broader consumer base distrustful of them. Of course the Streisand Effect will make this backfire by instantly raising public awareness of this service. Thanks for the thorough answer Tim and I hope you're right. The only problem I see with online trust levels is that they can be faked (or unduly raised) to give the appearance of trustworthiness. I will also give the centralized services this, it is exponentially easier to match buyers and sellers, but on the other hand it's good for people to have multiple options so they can choose a method that best suits their needs. Correct, Brandon. It is always a good thing to have options and choices. Let the users decide. We all have different preferences and I believe that it is best for things to evolve. As people become more knowledge and comfortable they will learn to make the best choice. Mass acceptance of digital currency is likely to take many more years as people learn to accept "decentralized trust". However, I don't believe that our traditional "trust preference" can be completely replaced. |
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sl-avik
Member
Offline
Activity: 158
Merit: 10
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October 10, 2017, 08:09:41 PM |
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Good day,
BTC rising again so it good motivation for dev team accelerate the development))
and for example give weekly info about progress in DN1 to DN2 moving...
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DNotes (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1932
Merit: 1111
DNotes
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October 10, 2017, 09:01:02 PM |
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Good day,
BTC rising again so it good motivation for dev team accelerate the development))
and for example give weekly info about progress in DN1 to DN2 moving...
Good day sl-avik, working on front end and should have some screen shots tonight or tomorrow morning. |
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TeeGee
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October 11, 2017, 12:34:20 AM
Last edit: October 11, 2017, 01:11:15 AM by TeeGee |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. |
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TimMarsh
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Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.
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October 11, 2017, 04:11:21 AM |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. You're absolutely right TeeGee, that governments should enact the will of the people. I'm just struggling to find an instance where corporations wanted one thing, and the people wanted the opposite and then the government legislated in favour of the people's will. You'd think that in democracies that would happen all of the time. But apparently not. Instead I think that we'll see the old financial sector lobbying their governments to act against cryptocurrencies and governments doing what they're asked. Some governments will recognise the economic benefits of being a technological leader in the field, I'm looking at you Tallinn, and push back against the financial sector and their lobby groups. Other governments will recognise the economic benefits of their population's increased wealth so will regulate to stop losses through fraudulent ICOs while encouraging the cryptocurrency industry in general. I'm thinking of Japan as an example of this. But neither of these positions may have a significant effect on the industry over the long term. Where there is a will there is a way. Frequently the chip to override Sony Playstation security was available for purchase before the box with that security update was on the market. Whatever actions governments take to limit the use or accessibility of cryptocurrencies, enterprising groups will design work-arounds and solutions that welcome those citizen's trade. I see a country banning the use of cryptocurrencies as about as effective as a country banning the uploading of images onto the Internet. And the more they squeeze the blacker the market gets. If on the other hand, governments rewarded citizens for declaring their wallet addresses, that same market would become a lot less black. So I'm enjoying watching all of this unfold in your good company, and see some unpredictable chaos ahead like a crazy pattern on a blanket. But this blanket is settling down over a landscape of valleys well worn by history. The prohibition of alcohol, the Tulip bubble, the dotcom bubble, the introduction of bank cards and ATM machines. All of these reflect human behaviour and are good predictors of both government and public response. |
Cryptocurrencies will level the playing field. I'm paid to write, but not paid to promote.
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DNotes (OP)
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DNotes
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October 11, 2017, 12:34:17 PM |
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Screenshots from DNotes 2.0: |
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Dyna
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October 11, 2017, 01:45:09 PM |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. You're absolutely right TeeGee, that governments should enact the will of the people. I'm just struggling to find an instance where corporations wanted one thing, and the people wanted the opposite and then the government legislated in favour of the people's will. You'd think that in democracies that would happen all of the time. But apparently not. Instead I think that we'll see the old financial sector lobbying their governments to act against cryptocurrencies and governments doing what they're asked. Some governments will recognise the economic benefits of being a technological leader in the field, I'm looking at you Tallinn, and push back against the financial sector and their lobby groups. Other governments will recognise the economic benefits of their population's increased wealth so will regulate to stop losses through fraudulent ICOs while encouraging the cryptocurrency industry in general. I'm thinking of Japan as an example of this. But neither of these positions may have a significant effect on the industry over the long term. Where there is a will there is a way. Frequently the chip to override Sony Playstation security was available for purchase before the box with that security update was on the market. Whatever actions governments take to limit the use or accessibility of cryptocurrencies, enterprising groups will design work-arounds and solutions that welcome those citizen's trade. I see a country banning the use of cryptocurrencies as about as effective as a country banning the uploading of images onto the Internet. And the more they squeeze the blacker the market gets. If on the other hand, governments rewarded citizens for declaring their wallet addresses, that same market would become a lot less black. So I'm enjoying watching all of this unfold in your good company, and see some unpredictable chaos ahead like a crazy pattern on a blanket. But this blanket is settling down over a landscape of valleys well worn by history. The prohibition of alcohol, the Tulip bubble, the dotcom bubble, the introduction of bank cards and ATM machines. All of these reflect human behaviour and are good predictors of both government and public response. What is going on is a massive technology revolution that is too big for any government to stop. There will be a lot of push backs and lobbying but eventually things will settle. For those who are willing to take some risk, there are still many ground-floor opportunities. |
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Dyna
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October 11, 2017, 01:48:34 PM |
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Screenshots from DNotes 2.0: I appreciate the great efforts our team has put in to make DNotes 2.0 a success. Please share your comments. Thanks. |
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Newtiy
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October 11, 2017, 01:57:12 PM |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. I'm not sure, but I heard that in one of the Russian Universities they launch an educational programme on blockchain technologies. So may be it means that Russia is on the way to accept it? (Sorry for off-topic in this thread, just saw a post about Russia and decided to answer  ) |
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TeeGee
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October 11, 2017, 02:30:32 PM
Last edit: October 11, 2017, 02:52:55 PM by TeeGee |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. I'm not sure, but I heard that in one of the Russian Universities they launch an educational programme on blockchain technologies. So may be it means that Russia is on the way to accept it? (Sorry for off-topic in this thread, just saw a post about Russia and decided to answer ) Hey Newtiy, great to have you here. IT's difficult to tell what the Russians are doing in terms of Bitcoin and blockchain technologies. It appears many ICO come from there, and it could be a great vehicle for wealth to come into the country. At the same time, the government seem to view cryptocurrencies as a risk for their citizens. They could also be considering banning the exchange of bitcoin etc, while allowing research on blockchain technologies. Some of their banks are already releasing blockchain products. |
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Chase
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October 11, 2017, 03:17:45 PM |
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There is certainly a lot of mixed messaging coming out of Russia. It is highly likely that there will form a crypto-divide between those that ban use of cryptocurrency, and those who endorse their use. We will quickly see which approach is more economically beneficial, whereupon some of those countries will either reevaluate their position, or double down on it. Cryptocurrencies are made by the people, for the people, so I think there is a case to be made that if enough people want to use them, and the government should reflect the will of the people, then that should be mirrored in policy. I'm not sure, but I heard that in one of the Russian Universities they launch an educational programme on blockchain technologies. So may be it means that Russia is on the way to accept it? (Sorry for off-topic in this thread, just saw a post about Russia and decided to answer ) Hey Newtiy, great to have you here. IT's difficult to tell what the Russians are doing in terms of Bitcoin and blockchain technologies. It appears many ICO come from there, and it could be a great vehicle for wealth to come into the country. At the same time, the government seem to view cryptocurrencies as a risk for their citizens. They could also be considering banning the exchange of bitcoin etc, while allowing research on blockchain technologies. Some of their banks are already releasing blockchain products. Hi Newtiy, and welcome to the DNotes forum. "IT's difficult to tell what the Russians are doing in terms of Bitcoin and blockchain technologies." A week ago, Russia announced it was including cryptocurrency as part of its financial literacy program, and there are June pictures of Vladimir Putin with Vitalik Buterin in what looked like a BFF moment. And next week, something else will be banned. lol |
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Chase
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October 11, 2017, 03:19:39 PM |
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Screenshots from DNotes 2.0: The wallet is amazing - Great job to everyone who is working on it! |
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TwoCorn
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October 11, 2017, 03:22:19 PM |
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And so many developers on the ICO teams (even the multi-national ones) are Russian. There is a lot of activity in the crypto space coming from Russia. I have started studying Russian just so I can begin to follow what they are all talking about! Very confusing messages coming from the Russian government.
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Brandon Cheliak
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October 11, 2017, 03:54:15 PM |
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Screenshots from DNotes 2.0: The wallet is amazing - Great job to everyone who is working on it! Agreed, it looks great! I can't wait to test out the new features. Keep up the great work everyone. |
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erv
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October 11, 2017, 05:45:28 PM |
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the wallet looks great, but i think need a bit polish
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