[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[Vezunchik]

And why Ciphermine.B1 is so important? I mean - is there any other asserts or so in DMS portfolio that can be sold for dividends payout? Or main problem sounds like "there is no way to make manually such a big number of transfers?".

I'm back.

Sorry for the lack of communication recently - I only intended to be away for a few days but it ended up being a fortnight.  As I hadn't intended to be away long I didn't have my laptop etc with me (and 3G coverage was terrible for the android).

Got a bunch of things to catch up on (including DMS) - will make a longer post later tonight or tomorrow.  Here's the main points:

All funds remain intact and untouched (the BTC address holding the main funds was listed earlier in the thread and hasn't changed)

No dividends will be paid yet for a few reasons:

DMS.SELLING can't have dividends paid until Ciphermine.B1 is liquid - at present those have an effective value well below face value.
I have a few mails from people whose BTC addresses were inputs.io addresses.  If I want to pay dividends direct then those would need to be fixed first (haven't even read up on the news yet but one of my mails says TF was either hacked or pretending to be hacked and stole the funds).
Some people haven't got BTC addresses listed from BTC-TC (only a few).  As soon as I make a dividend payment to some but not all investors it makes it a nightmare to relist - as the shares are no longer fungible until all have received same dividends.

I've skimmed though my emails (which includes copies of all PMs to this board) and will now start answering the ones that need a speedy response.

[Deprived]

And why Ciphermine.B1 is so important? I mean - is there any other asserts or so in DMS portfolio that can be sold for dividends payout? Or main problem sounds like "there is no way to make manually such a big number of transfers?".

I'm back.

Sorry for the lack of communication recently - I only intended to be away for a few days but it ended up being a fortnight.  As I hadn't intended to be away long I didn't have my laptop etc with me (and 3G coverage was terrible for the android).

Got a bunch of things to catch up on (including DMS) - will make a longer post later tonight or tomorrow.  Here's the main points:

All funds remain intact and untouched (the BTC address holding the main funds was listed earlier in the thread and hasn't changed)

No dividends will be paid yet for a few reasons:

DMS.SELLING can't have dividends paid until Ciphermine.B1 is liquid - at present those have an effective value well below face value.
I have a few mails from people whose BTC addresses were inputs.io addresses.  If I want to pay dividends direct then those would need to be fixed first (haven't even read up on the news yet but one of my mails says TF was either hacked or pretending to be hacked and stole the funds).
Some people haven't got BTC addresses listed from BTC-TC (only a few).  As soon as I make a dividend payment to some but not all investors it makes it a nightmare to relist - as the shares are no longer fungible until all have received same dividends.

I've skimmed though my emails (which includes copies of all PMs to this board) and will now start answering the ones that need a speedy response.

I'm working on an updated format for reports right now - but basically DMS has assets worth around 412 BTC (valuing Ciphermine.B1 at face value) of which nearly 2/3 (260 BTC) are the ciphermine bonds.  All other assets were liquidated (there was nothing else listed on exchanges).  Do remember that since BTC-TC closure was announced well over half the total assets have been paid out just in SELLING dividends.

There's plenty of cash to pay MINING dividends for the forseeable future.

The reasons MINING dividends can't be paid are in a nutshell this:

1.  The moment some shares of MINING get dividends but others don't the shares cease to be fungible and can't be relisted easily on an exchange (dividends would have to be caught up with on all of them first).
2.  No dividends could be paid anyway until the payment per share was at least 5000 satoshis (the limit for transactions to be spendable at all).
3,  Some accounts don't have BTC addresses listed - those can't have dividends paid to direct.
4.  Some accounts used inputs.io addresses (I've been emailed/PMed by a a few people with that problem).  Those need to be changed first - which can't be done in a rush as if they can't sign with the address I have to wait a reasonable period to make sure noone else shows up saying "my email address was hacked, it wasn't an inputs.io address and here's me signing with the address to prove that".

3/4 are the issue now - I can sort the existing ones of type 4 within a week or so, type 3 I can in theory group together manually and account for them seperately (i.e. hold them all with a BTC address I control and manually transfer them/funds when the owners show up).  But as I expect us to be listed on an exchange within a week it's just not worth it.

Anyway, time for a break for some food then I'll finish off the updated report (dealing with owed dividends, reporting NAV/U as X BTC + Y CIPHERMINE.B1).

[Rannasha]

But as I expect us to be listed on an exchange within a week it's just not worth it.

I'd love to learn more about this part.

[Deprived]

But as I expect us to be listed on an exchange within a week it's just not worth it.

I'd love to learn more about this part.

I hope to be able to give a proper explanation on that by Monday.

Here's the current status of DMS finances:

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   0
CIPHERMINE Bonds    260.56000000
BTC Balance (Wallet)    150.79576392
Dividends (Wallet)    3.27310018
TOTAL ASSETS    414.62886410
   
Outstanding MINING   152575
Outstanding SELLING   152575
Outstanding PURCHASE   10479
Effective Units   163054
   
Dividends/Mining Owed   0.00006849
Total Dividends Owed   11.16756846
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   510,929,738
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00000492
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00024607
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00049215
365 days (Buyback)    0.00179634
405 days (IPO)    0.00199320
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00196859
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00201781

NAV/U    0.00087640    BTC +    0.1598    CIPHERMINE.B1   
NAV/U (if CM.B1 at face)    0.00247440             

All funds were received back from BTC-TC (including a final tiny payment for the bit that couldn't manually be withdrawn).

Dividends have been received for CIPHERMINE.B1 for the weels up to and including last week - they're received in a seperate address and listed seperately above.

You'll see above the owed dividends per share (and total) for MINING up to and including tomorrow's dividend.  Here's the breakdown of how that was calculated:

Date   Dividend
04-Nov    0.00000643
05-Nov    0.00000643
06-Nov    0.00000643
07-Nov    0.00000492
08-Nov    0.00000492
09-Nov    0.00000492
10-Nov    0.00000492
11-Nov    0.00000492
12-Nov    0.00000492
13-Nov    0.00000492
14-Nov    0.00000492
15-Nov    0.00000492
16-Nov    0.00000492
   
Total    0.00006849

The figures above aren't completely accurate for two reasons:

1.  The value for the dividend wallet actually includes a tiny amount of personal funds (I had my personal BTC-TC address and the DMS one in same multi-bit wallet and it's added them together).  I'll probably just leave that in DMS as it's only a fraction of a BTC.
2.  I believe I owed the fund a small amount for the Nov 6th dividend (pretty sure it changed after 16:00 but before midnight - where, by terms of an earlier promise by me, MINING get the old dividend and I personally pay the difference between old and new dividends).  The usual site I use to check exact times of difficulty changes seems to have stopped updating - will updated accounts once I've verified the precise time for that.

We have somewhere around 150 days of MINING dividends in cash - which is likely to be more than will ever be needed for it (as difficulty isn't likely to stop rising just yet).  If CIPHERMINE.B1 were liquid then SELLING would be getting a dividend of around .0005 BTC each.

As soon as we relist then redemptions for MINING+SELLING pairs (and PURCHASE) will be available - per the contract at 98% of NAV/U.  With NAV/U being X BTC + Y CIPHERMINE.B1.  As soon as we sell enough to get it back below 25% of NAV/U I'd revert to buying back in cash (and paying SELLING dividends).  Realistically I can't expect to sell any/many PURCHASE whilst we're too illiquid to pay SELLING dividends.

[Lohoris]

Since you'll be listing at a new exchange, while you're at it, will you change the denomination of MINING to bigger units, or you will keep with these tiny dividends?
Currently the "rounding error" is 1/100, but once it will be 1/10 it won't be negligible anymore...

[Deprived]

Since you'll be listing at a new exchange, while you're at it, will you change the denomination of MINING to bigger units, or you will keep with these tiny dividends?
Currently the "rounding error" is 1/100, but once it will be 1/10 it won't be negligible anymore...

So what would you propose happened to someone who had 1 of the current mining shares?  Would they get 0 (and lose their investment) or 1 (and have it worth 10 times the value) of the new ones?  There's no practical way to do it without either rounding down (where people lose money) or rounding up (where different people lose money).

[eltopo]

As soon as DMS is listed on a new exchange and tradable, you could announce that in n days 1 unit will be converted to 10 units, and everybody who has an amount of shares that's not divisible by 10 will be rounded down. Perhaps you could put up a vote, I guuess majority will approve it.

BTW: On litecoin forums Kate said she plans to announce some news on the new exchange tomorrow (saturday)

[twentyseventy]

Deprived, it was mentioned while you were away - does DMS still have significant CoinLenders exposure? The fall of Inputs.io looks to have possibly taken CL along with it.

[Rannasha]

Deprived, it was mentioned while you were away - does DMS still have significant CoinLenders exposure? The fall of Inputs.io looks to have possibly taken CL along with it.

DMS pulled out of CoinLenders after it became a "demo website" some time ago. Right now all assets are in liquid BTC or CIPHERMINE bonds.

Regarding the rounding of mining dividends: Perhaps dividends can be paid once per difficulty-period rather than daily. With a difficulty-period lasting between 10 and 12 days, this gives the one extra significant digit to make rounding errors less pronounced.

[Lohoris]

Since you'll be listing at a new exchange, while you're at it, will you change the denomination of MINING to bigger units, or you will keep with these tiny dividends?
Currently the "rounding error" is 1/100, but once it will be 1/10 it won't be negligible anymore...

So what would you propose happened to someone who had 1 of the current mining shares?  Would they get 0 (and lose their investment) or 1 (and have it worth 10 times the value) of the new ones?  There's no practical way to do it without either rounding down (where people lose money) or rounding up (where different people lose money).

Well, you could start selling PURCHASE in blocks of 1000 and, as @eltopo suggested, you could give a time limit to round the amount of owned shares.
After that you don't even need to cut them, just to prevent selling amounts of shares <1000 if you already have >= 1000: doing so will ensure there won't be new people owning <1000 shares, just old ones.

But... yes, it's getting a bit complicated, and maybe it's not worth the effort.

[limit2718]

ok。。。。fine

[Rannasha]

Here's some info on the new exchange that'll list DMS, CIPHERTRADE, primarily operated by the folks at CIPHERMINE. Deprived is apparently in its advisory board.

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

[Progressive]

Here's some info on the new exchange that'll list DMS, CIPHERTRADE, primarily operated by the folks at CIPHERMINE. Deprived is apparently in its advisory board.

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7176.0.html

Thanks for the link.

[matt4054]

Any idea if MINING dividend will be sent directly before moving to the new exchange?

Cheers

PS: thanks for not vanishing like other prominent figures of the forum did, worryingly

[stripykitteh]

Can't wait for DMS to be tradeable again. It's fun. And I think the next six months or so will be very interesting as new players are attracted to mining by the recent appreciation in the btc:fiat exchange rate.

I need something to stop me being tempted into forex speculation...

[HowlingMad]

I need something to stop me being tempted into forex speculation...

Here is your wish fulfilled   

Stripykitteh!  Though shalt not play with FOREX!

[CtmanGer]

Is there a way to find out how much I have invested now?
think i had some 30 or 40 sahres only or even less

[Deprived]

Any idea if MINING dividend will be sent directly before moving to the new exchange?

Cheers

PS: thanks for not vanishing like other prominent figures of the forum did, worryingly

Ideally not.  As mentioned before, if I pay dividends to some shares but not all then the shares stop being fungible (i.e. they aren't interchangable - as some have owed dividends on and others don't) which means they can't be traded on an exchange.  And I can't pay dividends to all - as some people didn't ever specify a BTC address to BTC-TC (it's not just small investors either - the person with the largest number of PURCHASE - a few thousand - hasn't provided a BTC address).  So best solution is to move to an exchange, create accounts for everyone based on email addresses then catch up on MINING dividends there.

[Deprived]

Is there a way to find out how much I have invested now?
think i had some 30 or 40 sahres only or even less

Yeah, send me an email at deprivedltcasset@hotmail.co.uk (it MUST be from the email address you used for your BTC-TC account) and tell me which you held shares in (Mining/Selling/Purchase) - and I'll look up how how many you had and reply telling you.

Will be making a more substantive post here in a few hours - just going to finish off replying to all PMs/emails first.

[Deprived]

Still working through my back-log of non-urgent PMs/mails - but wanted to correct an error in an earlier post by me.

I stated that the largest holder of PURCHASE hadn't provided a BTC address - that's no longer true.  I'd been using an old list from a few days before BTC-TC finally closed - appears they provided an address prior to it finally shutting its doors.  Here's the stats on accounts without BTC addresses:

Mining

152575 shares
193 Investors
16 investors with no BTC address
1933 shares with no BTC address

Selling

152575 shares
153 Investors
5 investors with no BTC address
227 shares with no BTC address

PURCHASE

10479 shares
71 investors
6 investors with no BTC address
40 shares with no BTC address

If you haven't provided a BTC address and want to (or have provided one and need to change it - e.g. because it's an inputs.io address or an address you for some other reason can't sign) then this is the procedure:

1.  Email me (MUST be from the email address you used on BTC-TC) at deprivedltcasset@hotmail.co.uk stating the BTC address you want to use and which shares you own.
2.  I'll wait a few days then reply to you.
3.  You then reply to my email (this exchange of emails is necessary to prevent anyone spoofing an email address in the header)
4.  I'll wait another few days then update my records at which point I'll email you again.

If you already emailed me about this and haven't received an initial reply it'll either be because you only emailed me in the last few days OR you'll be being emailed within the next hour or so.
The delays are necessary to ensure someone with short-term access can't change your BTC address on record.