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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 942156 times)
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markm
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January 24, 2014, 05:30:09 PM
Last edit: January 24, 2014, 05:51:52 PM by markm
 #4541

You are not screwed for real on any sensible options setup designed to avoid anyone being screwed.

The worst that can happen, barring hacks, thefts, embezzling and such, is that you miss out on potential profits you could have made had you taken some other course of action.

For example if the DeVCoin Credit Union has ten thousand dollars on hand and makes a deal with you to let you buy up to ten thousand dollars for X number of DeVCoins the Credit Union makes a definite profit in terms of DeVCoins, not only on the actual sale if it happens but also in the form of the price of the option, that is, the service charge it charges you for making such a deal with you.

The Credit Union would already know how many DeVCoins it had paid for those dollars, thus how many DeVCoins of profit it would make if you did end up exercising the option.

So it would in effect be trading a guaranteed locked in profit against a chance that maybe it could have gotten more DeVCoins for those dollars had it instead waited for a better offer (someone offering a higher price for such an option) or for an exchange rate more in its favour (an exchange where it could buy more DeVCoins for those dollars than you exercising the option would end up providing it.)

Similarly the person buying the option would only be screwed to the same extent any insurance screws people. They could end up having paid for an option they end up choosing not to exercise, just like with fire insurance you could end up paying for the insurance then not having a fire.

So really the only unlimited losses involved are opportunity costs. You could end up not buying a winning lottery ticket or somesuch on account of getting into an options deal instead.

I suppose someone is going to argue that if DeVCoins become worthless then the Credit Union would lose a lot. But fergoshsakes it is a DeVCoin credit union, to it DeVCoins are profit, they are value, they are "worth". Its entire accounting system is based on how many DeVCoins it has, and if it has more now than it had before that is profit.

(Its shareholders might not think so, thinking gosh I should have invested in a dollars credit union instead of a DeVCoin credit union, but so what, either they were okay with that or they would not have invested so there would not have been a DeVCoin credit union in the first place. As long as such an institution does exist and it does gain more DeVCoins than it had it still gets to report that to its shareholders as "profit". The fact that dollars went up in value relative to DeVCoins or that a lottery ticket it did not buy did win billions of dollars or even billions of DeVCoins is fundamentally irrelevant.)

Maybe the best way to get an Olympian perspective on options is to think about the case where you print/mint yourself two different currencies then offer options between the two. Looking at it that way maybe you can see that frankly you come out ahead no matter which one gets to be worth how much more or less than the other one if you can manage to sell any at all of either one of them! (Well, enough to cover the cost of printing/minting the stuff anyway.) Plus you get paid a fee for the options themselves too! I guess ideally you would charge in bitcoins for for the options themselves, so that regardless of whether foo or bar comes out as worth more you got yourself some bitcoins regardless! Wink Cheesy (Or charge meals for the options themselves, so that regardless of whether foo or bar turns out to be worth more you got yourself some meals regardless. Etc.)

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January 24, 2014, 05:47:51 PM
 #4542

yep I was just joking. Using a short btc/usd position you're only ''screwed'' if the relationship breaks down and devcoin prices go down while bitcoin prices stay flat or go up. Speaking of devcoin prices in USD here.

I consider this to be a less likely scenario, a more likely outcome is that both cryptos rise/fall together in terms of fiat.

Another possible outcome is that devcoin prices rise a lot more then bitcoin, under this scenario you'll still gain by increased pay so if that part of the relationship breaks down you're not screwed.

A way to directly short devcoin or use devcoin options is of course preferred because it removes another moving risk variable. But I'm not sure this could be achieved with the small market cap devcoin has atm. A large player that already owns a lot of devcoins could maybe get into market making and start to offer this as a financial product.

The question to answer is will there be enough interest on the writers side for this product? With bitcoin and devcoin prices up over 1,000 percent in 2013, I'm not sure many will see the value in this type of risk protection.
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January 24, 2014, 05:54:08 PM
 #4543

http://www.cryptohits.info/index.php?coin=DVC

1 DVC = 0.00000076 BTC
1 DVC = 0.00002935 LTC
1 DVC = $0.00070262 USD (Based on BTC)
1 DVC = $0.00058935 USD (Based on LTC)
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January 24, 2014, 05:57:20 PM
 #4544

On that note I guess I might as well post these URLs:

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/indevcoins.html

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/plotdvc.html

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/sharesindvc.html

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/plotsharesindvc.html

In theory real options should help keep exchange rates more stable.

I am not sure MPOE style options really accomplish that since they don't actually involve going to exchanges and actually buying dollars using bitcoins nor going to exchanges and actually buying bitcoins using dollars. They deal only with bitcoins, no dollars actually exchanged at all.

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January 24, 2014, 06:44:43 PM
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It is too bad that MPOE is not free open source, as options do sound like just what we need.

I ran around enquiring about the possibility of generic options code a long log time ago, I wanted something where you basically tell it here are the two items of a pair, I want to enable options on that pair.

No luck though.

I also tried working through a bunch of concepts using "long coins" and "short coins" but the big probem with een the best of those ideas was that people are nowadays spiled by options that give you massive leverage so the idea of having to lock up collateral equal to the maximum amount you could lose was a major turn-off for people.

But realistically, look at Lex Cryptographia even, you do need surety bonds aka collateral of some kind if you are not going to depend on the ability to send in the marines or the sheriff or whatever.

MPOE's method of doing options is a kind of zero sum system in which MPOE itself cannot possibly lose, and all potential loses are secured/covered by third party investors who in effect loan capital to the system or to the option writers or something.

It seems a shame to have to re-write the wheel from scratch over and over and over again which is why I tend to prefer to just get it over with by doing free open source in the first place. There should be code for all those kinds of things off the shelf as free open source so that any currency can easily equip itself with such important tools of finance.

-MarkM-


Hedging the writer's risk is exactly what I'm working on atm. Here's a part of my writing application I sent to Fuzzybear yesterday.

-----

One of my crypto related articles I’m working on atm is on hedging the devtome writers risk. Since I’ve started thinking about the prospect of getting paid in devcoins I started brainstorming about the possibility of hedging some of the risk due to the large fluctuations in the writers compensation month to month. As you’re aware, pay can wary from 10 to 200 usd per share. One of my ideas is to partially hedge this exposure by shorting bitcoins. Here’s the thinking behind it. Because to my knowledge, there is no way to short devcoin outright, by using btc as a proxy and shorting it instead you stand to gain if cryptocurrencies decline in value.

From the data I’ve seen so far (could only find data since June 2013) devcoin’s price in usd tends to follow bitcoin/litecoin’s rise or fall. In the 8 months I have data for, DVC traded within a 30% band against bitcoin/litecoin. In other words, as bitcoin/litecoin price in USD skyrocketed in 2013, devcoin followed suit and only lagged/outperformed by 30%. So basically by shorting btc ( or even ltc) you could in theory cover some of the risk associated with the fluctuating writers pay. If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge. I’m still trying to find more data on dvc and see how it performed versus bitcoin before June 2013.

-------

Still trying to find more data on DVC/BTC going prior to June of last year. If It is something that I can import in MT4 it would be even better. If this turns out to be a somewhat viable plan to partially hedge the risk I plan to write an article on this for devtome. I think bitcoin options would be an even better option but I'm not sure that the broker's edge on these makes it worthwhile as a hedging mechanism. With a short btc option you win if bitcoin prices fall but you won't get ''violated'' if btc prices rise by tenfold like in November.

Another bonus of a short bitcoin position or option is that the devcoin price won't be affected at all.

It's an interesting discussion. Smiley

So a synthetic hedge via correlation.. What happens if the band is broken and difference is greater than 30%?

I believe the technical term for that is ''you're screwed''.  Grin

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.

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January 24, 2014, 06:57:04 PM
 #4546

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.

Yeah I've seen the thread on FF but not really read a lot of it. That's certainly true if for example you're running a fund with the aim of profiting entirely from correlation. And yes  I do believe that all correlations break down at some point. Here we're only talking about hedging the risk until the next devcoin payday, so the most you would lose with a hedge done correctly should be 1 or 1/2 of a paycheck even if unpredictable few SD events occur.
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January 24, 2014, 07:00:15 PM
 #4547

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.

Yeah I've seen the thread on FF but not really read a lot of it. That's certainly true if for example you're running a fund with the aim of profiting entirely from correlation. And yes  I do believe that all correlations break down at some point. Here we're only talking about hedging the risk until the next devcoin payday, so they most you would lose with a hedge done correctly should be 1 or 1/2 of a paycheck.

True if we only allow hedge of one round of shares.. I guess its a good compromise although for devtome something would have to be figured out about the rolling share system across to the next round.

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January 24, 2014, 08:34:27 PM
 #4548

Hedging the writer's risk is exactly what I'm working on atm. Here's a part of my writing application I sent to Fuzzybear yesterday.

-----

One of my crypto related articles I’m working on atm is on hedging the devtome writers risk. Since I’ve started thinking about the prospect of getting paid in devcoins I started brainstorming about the possibility of hedging some of the risk due to the large fluctuations in the writers compensation month to month. As you’re aware, pay can wary from 10 to 200 usd per share. One of my ideas is to partially hedge this exposure by shorting bitcoins. Here’s the thinking behind it. Because to my knowledge, there is no way to short devcoin outright, by using btc as a proxy and shorting it instead you stand to gain if cryptocurrencies decline in value.

From the data I’ve seen so far (could only find data since June 2013) devcoin’s price in usd tends to follow bitcoin/litecoin’s rise or fall. In the 8 months I have data for, DVC traded within a 30% band against bitcoin/litecoin. In other words, as bitcoin/litecoin price in USD skyrocketed in 2013, devcoin followed suit and only lagged/outperformed by 30%. So basically by shorting btc ( or even ltc) you could in theory cover some of the risk associated with the fluctuating writers pay. If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge. I’m still trying to find more data on dvc and see how it performed versus bitcoin before June 2013.

-------

Still trying to find more data on DVC/BTC going prior to June of last year. If It is something that I can import in MT4 it would be even better. If this turns out to be a somewhat viable plan to partially hedge the risk I plan to write an article on this for devtome. I think bitcoin options would be an even better option but I'm not sure that the broker's edge on these makes it worthwhile as a hedging mechanism. With a short btc option you win if bitcoin prices fall but you won't get ''violated'' if btc prices rise by tenfold like in November.

Another bonus of a short bitcoin position or option is that the devcoin price won't be affected at all.

It's an interesting discussion. Smiley
I don't know what the actual correlation is, but assuming the 30% band implies it's high then that's trading correlation risk really, rather than hedging - a basis trade. Basis trades are great until they're not. You wrote: 'If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge.' That also means if devcoin rises in tandem you will lose some of your gains with the bitcoin hedge.

The issue is that as a writer, writing for devcoins, the only risk you're really concerned about is dvc price falls, not rises. If it falls > 30% tolerance you've given yourself then you can be left worse off than just being long devcoin. So really you'd need to structure it so that the trade has skew which would need options.
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January 24, 2014, 08:35:21 PM
 #4549

Novacadian made two way email on his test forum at:
http://trollkeep.com/forum/

I sent an email from my forum account to unthinkingbit@gmail.com and replied to it from gmail, and it went my forum inbox. For this Novacadian gets half of the 48 shares plus 6 million devcoin bounty forum email bounty. That bounty is closed. When Novacadian gets it working on coinzen, then he and Tenthirtyone will share the remainder, each will get 12 shares plus 1.5 million devcoins.

The ultimate email plan is to have a challenge response system, where a sender not on the recipient's whitelist has to pay about 30 cents in cryptocurrency to send to a coinzen account. This would stop spam completely and is a difficult project. I suggest a payment of 96 shares to Novacadian and Tenthirtyone to implement challenge response. Then another 96 shares to implement payment challenge response. This would be 3/4 for Novacadian and 1/4 for Tenthirtyone. If the basic challenge response is not implemented in two months, this would become an open bounty.

Any objections, or should something be changed?

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January 24, 2014, 08:42:16 PM
 #4550

Sent from the forum to gmail and gmail back to the forum. Deja vu.
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January 24, 2014, 08:44:25 PM
 #4551

A dvc/fiat exchange, bank or investment fund might be a good idea. But they need to be subject to simple market forces and risk of loss like everything else. I'm not getting how a fund could be managed without reference to the market pricing you said was being avoided, except in just being a new market?

Im not sure what Ive come up with Weisoq, I wrote it up last night : http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_fund

Ive never done anything like this and I admit absolute ignorance but the idea wouldnt go away lol

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January 24, 2014, 08:46:25 PM
 #4552

Novacadian made two way email on his test forum at:
http://trollkeep.com/forum/

I sent an email from my forum account to unthinkingbit@gmail.com and replied to it from gmail, and it went my forum inbox. For this Novacadian gets half of the 48 shares plus 6 million devcoin bounty forum email bounty. That bounty is closed. When Novacadian gets it working on coinzen, then he and Tenthirtyone will share the remainder, each will get 12 shares plus 1.5 million devcoins.

The ultimate email plan is to have a challenge response system, where a sender not on the recipient's whitelist has to pay about 30 cents in cryptocurrency to send to a coinzen account. This would stop spam completely and is a difficult project. I suggest a payment of 96 shares to Novacadian and Tenthirtyone to implement challenge response. Then another 96 shares to implement payment challenge response. This would be 3/4 for Novacadian and 1/4 for Tenthirtyone. If the basic challenge response is not implemented in two months, this would become an open bounty.

Any objections, or should something be changed?


96 shares is on par with an open source devcoin atm machine... is this equivalent work?

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January 24, 2014, 08:56:36 PM
 #4553

Since the email is already being intercepted firing off a response to it does not sound hard, the same procmail or whatever tool that does the intercepting is designed already to do recipes that send responses as well as recipes that file the emails into different places or recipients or mailboxes or send them to scripts etc etc so respondng is trivial.

Figuring out whether someone paid something would be the hard part.

There would need to be some way of checking whether the address they were told to pay to did get paid to.

This could be an income for the forum by the sound of it?

Since it wouldn't probably be giving out addresses belonging to the email recipient as payment addresses but, rather, addresses belonging to the forum email interception system itself?

Would they be paying via a third party payment processor so that they have choices of what kinds of (crypto)currencies to pay with?

Presumably using a third party of that kind would be easier than dealing directly with one or more coin daemons?

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January 24, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
 #4554

..
96 shares is on par with an open source devcoin atm machine... is this equivalent work?

It is much less work than an open source devcoin atm. However, 96 shares is nowhere near enough for the atm, it would probably be at least a thousand shares. All the bounty for the atm got was complaints that it was not big enough. The reason the boounty was offered is because it was asked for, it is not enough to get the atm because devcoin can't afford that yet.

Since the email is already being intercepted firing off a response to it does not sound hard, the same procmail or whatever tool that does the intercepting is designed already to do recipes that send responses as well as recipes that file the emails into different places or recipients or mailboxes or send them to scripts etc etc so respondng is trivial.

The email bounty was there for about 6 months before it worked when I tested it. The challenge response is harder than just email. I don't want to wait another 6 months, I want it now.

Quote
Figuring out whether someone paid something would be the hard part.

There would need to be some way of checking whether the address they were told to pay to did get paid to.

It would go to a forum wallet, so the forum would have to check that wallet or a block explorer.

Quote
This could be an income for the forum by the sound of it?

Yes, but it would be small, that's just a nice bonus from stopping spam.

Quote
Since it wouldn't probably be giving out addresses belonging to the email recipient as payment addresses but, rather, addresses belonging to the forum email interception system itself?

Would they be paying via a third party payment processor so that they have choices of what kinds of (crypto)currencies to pay with?

The addresses would belong to the forum email system. It's up to the developer how to the handle payments.

Quote
Presumably using a third party of that kind would be easier than dealing directly with one or more coin daemons?

Alternately, they could check existing block explorers. That would mean a lag of typically ten minutes, but that's not a big deal because the average lag from answering an email is at least several hours.

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January 24, 2014, 10:26:59 PM
 #4555

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag

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January 24, 2014, 10:30:31 PM
 #4556

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag

Oh gosh don't accept paypal! YOu need non-reversible money otherwise you just become a place where people can turn stolen paypal accounts into easily resold good such as iPads iPhones or whatever you plan to auction.

Also get rid of this idea buying objects with shares then auctioning the objects.

Sell bids, and do not buy any objects that you do not have enough cash on hand (from sales of bids) to buy.

It is bad enough that likely we will end up having to spend shares on staff for this thing. If it cannot sell enough bids to buy things to auction forget it as untenable.

Also this makes sure it stays tenable, since if people keep it secret enough that they end up buying each item for one bid per item at least the damn item won't have cost us more than $0.60 (one bid) to buy. If people want nice things to bid on let them buy enough bids to enable us to get nice things to put up for auction.

There is enough incentive already for the site operators to deliberately have promotion fail so they are the only bidders, without letting what they bid on be worth more than the amount of bids they their cronies their families etc bought.

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January 24, 2014, 10:53:33 PM
 #4557

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag

Oh gosh don't accept paypal! YOu need non-reversible money otherwise you just become a place where people can turn stolen paypal accounts into easily resold good such as iPads iPhones or whatever you plan to auction.

Also get rid of this idea buying objects with shares then auctioning the objects.

Sell bids, and do not buy any objects that you do not have enough cash on hand (from sales of bids) to buy.

It is bad enough that likely we will end up having to spend shares on staff for this thing. If it cannot sell enough bids to buy things to auction forget it as untenable.

Also this makes sure it stays tenable, since if people keep it secret enough that they end up buying each item for one bid per item at least the damn item won't have cost us more than $0.60 (one bid) to buy. If people want nice things to bid on let them buy enough bids to enable us to get nice things to put up for auction.

There is enough incentive already for the site operators to deliberately have promotion fail so they are the only bidders, without letting what they bid on be worth more than the amount of bids they their cronies their families etc bought.

-MarkM-


Ahh I see, yea I just said IF we accept paypal(fiat)... but I suggested we do not offer paypal just coinpayments.

I guess we can start off by selling bids before auctions, just that I don't see how this would work. People want to "see" first then act... rather than acting first then "seeing". We will only have people sign up that fully get ahead of time what we are trying to do, rather than inticing people through things that they may want or need. We can avoid any upfront costs by selling the bids just to see using your method, since people were already interested in it! and go from there... lets see what others have to say.

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January 24, 2014, 10:57:32 PM
Last edit: January 24, 2014, 11:16:37 PM by markm
 #4558

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-

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January 24, 2014, 11:09:43 PM
 #4559

Hey Unthinkabit

Are bounties these still active?  Do you have any additional specs for what the end result should look like?

18 shares for a price ticker in a forum

24 shares for automatic vote counting of public 0-99 range votes

12 shares for a link generated from a post title


..
Maybe with the new DVC value (and it's still rising) we could have a new bounty for upgraded clients across all platforms - with some nice new features integrated such an integrated exchange, price ticker, messaging, voting on new open source projects to sponsor even, easypost to Devtome? etc

I don't want to add anything to the client, because every feature is a potential monetary exploit.

However, a forum doesn't hold money, so features could be added there safely. The integrated exchange would itself be exploited if the forum was hacked into, so it shouldn't be integrated. A price ticker is safe, and would be great for each alt coin. Messaging is already there. Voting on new open source projects to sponsor, or anything else, would be good. For easypost to devtome, sharing login might be a security risk, but it would be safe for a link to be generated to a devtome page from the post title.

I suggest the following:
18 shares for a price ticker in a forum
24 shares for automatic vote counting of public 0-99 range votes
12 shares for a link generated from a post title

These bounties would be doubled if the other forum bounties are doubled. Any objections, or should anything be changed?

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Hey with the rising price may as well think big Smiley

I agree, we just have to think of good ways of spending the windfall Smiley
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January 25, 2014, 01:15:23 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2014, 01:30:02 AM by sidhujag
 #4560

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-


No I do not have an alternative motive don't worry. lol the way I think about it is that people would not join to buy bids unless the product offered infront of their eyes. So there is the drwaback of people keeping it a secret yes.. and to combat that I think your idea of preselling bids is good so we don't fall into that trap, and it might work out better as when demand picks up we will have more bids selling and more funds to buy things etc etc... Im not sure how it would work trying to presell people on bids based on telling them what they may get after they have the bids... just not sure about that, but it is a safer strategy, and really up to everyone else. Personally I prefer to have inventory upfront, its a safer approach to be able to sell what you have. We can always make sure we have inventory sold for atleast breakeven by setting a reserve auction at first, that maybe will re leave some of your suspicion? I will leave others to read it and decide what the best way to go about it is. I think what you said is a possibility and it is an option. I think some healthy competition to devtome would be good however and it is badly needed.

Remember that profits go to devcoin and not me so by you saying maybe the founders should have built up a list of more people to market it to, doesn't make much sense to me because whoever does it is for the good of everyne here, so why dont YOU do that and help get that list bigger and if YOU don't know how then get someone that does or help in any way you could to help market? After all the idea is looking or trying to look after YOUR best interest in rising coin value.

The early penny auction sites did have people feeling ripped off, and quibids still does but competition helped that... what others did was allow people to buy it now and give back the bids they used for the auction. If you read my proposal you would have seen the part I talked about the worst case buying the item at marked value we deem appropriate probably plus a small markup for our service (since they had a chance to buy it cheaper, but decided to take back their bids). That way if they feel they are overspending, they can simply use buy it now and buy it... this is a way for people NOT to feel ripped off. I think we should probably support this. This means that we would have to be able to buy the product on demand based on a buy it now, and tell the user that hey if you use buy it now, you may be waiting a little while until we procure another item of the same description.. since mostly it would be people who ended up overbidding and didn't want to throw their bids away.

However im not sure how preselling bids would work with this, and may not work with it... so at first we may want to do a presale, and later on switch over to be funded by devcoin after it gets going with enough people who already know about it. That is when we turn on the buy it now feature and really get the ball rolling.

Im probabyl going to buy this template that gives us full source, and it has all of these features that I proposed... I will play with it and make it look good I want to change a few things, text font etc add devcoin logo etc and then get people to try it out.... I want to talk to the developer first though... waiting for a response.

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