[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[Athanasios Motok]

Does anyone know what the problem is?
On my devtome user page, http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:athanasios_motok a few articles appear red, this only happens on my page. When put into the homepage this issue does not happen. Is there a syntax error? Also one of my pages is not even showing up (Paper Thin Flash Drive)
Thanks so much for your help,
-AM

[sidhujag]

What about when you barter an apple share for an IBM share on an exchange site via the intermediary of the dollars or whatever that are used to measure both stocks, that is, sell an apple share and buy an IBM one?

It is all a matter when they get round to you. When consulting the lawyer about a football pool site she said that it would likely fly for a while yet once they got porn somewhat under control they would turn on gambling. This was back in the 90's and she was spot on.

If a raffle/pool is kept among the community it is not likely to get much attention. If payments back and forth are done through crypto wallets it will just be too hard to nail down. My guess is that it would not be worth the person power to try to litigate. In your area, MarkM, you can get one hour of free consulting from a lawyer as a free service. It is in the yellow pages, or was.

- Nova

So if we dont support fiat, payments are done via crypto wallets, how is that any different? Unless the business gets so big that it becomes a big enough fish for someone to care?

[markm]

People who take home real products from the sites without paying fiat for the things obtained the things as income in effect.

Possibly if the bitcoins had been held for a year prior to buying something with them then it could be argued the things bought are capital gains rather than income.

Re an auction site, there are probably laws about auctions, a law firm in the jurisdiction it is to be operated in should be consulted, also the laws where each customer lives might also need taking into account.

Basically it would be a full fledged "startup", so probably need a "totally puts his entire life into it" founder and a team of co-founders willing to work overtime and weekends for a few years for shares to get it started up then hopefully be rich enough to retire when the site is sold to quibids or google or who-ever for millions or billions, along of course with all the personal data on its users that its privacy policy pretends will not be given or sold...

-MarkM-

[markm]

Does anyone know what the problem is?
On my devtome user page, http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:athanasios_motok a few articles appear red, this only happens on my page. When put into the homepage this issue does not happen. Is there a syntax error? Also one of my pages is not even showing up (Paper Thin Flash Drive)
Thanks so much for your help,
-AM

Sounds like you maybe didn't use the colon that tells the wiki to look in the main articles section insead of the current (aa user homepage or homepages) section?

-MarkM-

[Bittzy78]

People who take home real products from the sites without paying fiat for the things obtained the things as income in effect.

Possibly if the bitcoins had been held for a year prior to buying something with them then it could be argued the things bought are capital gains rather than income.

Re an auction site, there are probably laws about auctions, a law firm in the jurisdiction it is to be operated in should be consulted, also the laws where each customer lives might also need taking into account.

Basically it would be a full fledged "startup", so probably need a "totally puts his entire life into it" founder and a team of co-founders willing to work overtime and weekends for a few years for shares to get it started up then hopefully be rich enough to retire when the site is sold to quibids or google or who-ever for millions or billions, along of course with all the personal data on its users that its privacy policy pretends will not be given or sold...

-MarkM-

i think it would be almost impossible for this type of auction site to not take the crypo world by storm.  It would probably be quickly duplicated but, the ones who get their foot in the door first might have the best chance of making it.

[sidhujag]

People who take home real products from the sites without paying fiat for the things obtained the things as income in effect.

Possibly if the bitcoins had been held for a year prior to buying something with them then it could be argued the things bought are capital gains rather than income.

Re an auction site, there are probably laws about auctions, a law firm in the jurisdiction it is to be operated in should be consulted, also the laws where each customer lives might also need taking into account.

Basically it would be a full fledged "startup", so probably need a "totally puts his entire life into it" founder and a team of co-founders willing to work overtime and weekends for a few years for shares to get it started up then hopefully be rich enough to retire when the site is sold to quibids or google or who-ever for millions or billions, along of course with all the personal data on its users that its privacy policy pretends will not be given or sold...

-MarkM-

I think the goal is to help stablilize the exchange rate by providing a monthly weekly profit. This will do that. They cannot trace which coins were used so they cannot undo the transactions, but they can shut the website down if it gets big enough, so I would bet we wouldn't see that for a long time. In the mean while we would benefit from the profit it brings in. Just like all the other bitcoin sites allowing exchange of bitcoins for goods, im sure some of them are just plain old websites with a web wallet too.

Im sure it would get duplicated but yea the original one would be popular enough at that point that it would be generating profit right? That's the goal? Also we would have funding rather than the competitors which would be a private venture and the person would have to risk quite a bit to get it up and running him/herself to justify any potential profits considering that we would be a direct competitor with a community behind us.

For those who still are thinking, why the heck would I go to this auction site when I can go to quibids.com or any of the other auction sites? Well that market is big, but we are after a different market. We are after the crypto-currency market and actually we really care about the devcoins mostly, as if you are paying via devcoins you must either earn or purchase them, directly benefits all of us who hold. Those who hold coins and cant spend? Well we all know that the biggest issue is there is nowhere cool to spend coins on... this tries to solve that problem. Other people from other crypto communities would come in and try to emulate us, but I think we would be good for a while because we would have developers willing to make features etc for coins, we already have a bounty process thats probably better than most other coins and is giong to get better. It serves the purpose of devcoin well, any business that any competitor would emulate we should have market advantage only because of the share system. If we leverage that we win.

I think of it this way, in the worldwide marketplace for goods vs crypto's there are bids and offers for goods and we are essentially giving very low offers for the same thing that another one gives higher offer, the buyer will come eat up our offer first, like for example if vircurex had an offer alot lower than crypsty, it just takes knowledge that vircurex exists(marketing), and to check it and transfer the coins if its a big enough difference.

[markm]

People who take home real products from the sites without paying fiat for the things obtained the things as income in effect.

Possibly if the bitcoins had been held for a year prior to buying something with them then it could be argued the things bought are capital gains rather than income.

Re an auction site, there are probably laws about auctions, a law firm in the jurisdiction it is to be operated in should be consulted, also the laws where each customer lives might also need taking into account.

Basically it would be a full fledged "startup", so probably need a "totally puts his entire life into it" founder and a team of co-founders willing to work overtime and weekends for a few years for shares to get it started up then hopefully be rich enough to retire when the site is sold to quibids or google or who-ever for millions or billions, along of course with all the personal data on its users that its privacy policy pretends will not be given or sold...

-MarkM-

i think it would be almost impossible for this type of auction site to not take the crypo world by storm.  It would probably be quickly duplicated but, the ones who get their foot in the door first might have the best chance of making it.

So basically if quibid has any competitors yet the competitor that starts accepting cryptocoins before quibids does should take the crypto world by storm?

Is the crypto world not yet big enough for any of their competitors to bother, do you think?

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

So why make any businesses that accept anything to do with crypto? Lets just all hold crypto stuck up our butts and hope that one day someone will keep eating our sell offers and we just recycle our stash through bids.. hmm that sounds about right.

Even for bitcoin overstock.com, cheapoair.com etc dont see adding bitcoin as a market advantage at all right? Why bother creating a service that already exists when it already exists?

Like I said if the big players accept devcoin? hey cool, we win either way.

[markm]

One massive advantage of free open source would be that hundreds or thousands of people will be able to try to make such a site profitable.

I still wonder how many people have managed to make a site built with the commercial scripts profitable, and also how many have even tried.

(Of how many licenses/keys sold, how many are still running profitably how many years later?)

I don't think you realise what a massive undertaking such a site would be, especially if it does take off.

It is a classic "startup".

Who is the dedicates his or her entire life into it he or she believes in it so much founder?

Who are their tight knit team-members who will work full time overtime and weekends on it for shares of it for a year or two or three to get it started?

Given a compelling enough team who has demonstrated such dedication to it maybe buying some equity in their startup by buying them a license to use the script would be a good investment.

But remember the vast majority of startups fail so we really do need totally dedicated totally determined people.

How many words would those people have to write for Devtome in order to earn enough devcoins to buy themselves the script license and the dot com, net, org and maybe some national top level domains of their proposed name?

(Maybe the dot AUCTION too if an auction top level domain is available yet.)

If that is too much work for them, a startup is almost certainly massively too much work for them.

In fact one could probably pretty much guarantee that if writing enough words is more work than they are willing to do they are not the team to do such a project.

So, back to free open source. Supporting free open source is part of devcoin's mandate. Maybe if someone is writing a free open source version of such a site, and they spend forty hours a month doing so freely of their own accord, they might become eligible to get onto the devcoin receivers list.

Then if the thing works and works well, real code out there real team still working on it etc like bitcoin and open transactions, and at that time devcoin finds it good enough to be essential to the devcoin plan like bitcoin and open transactions are, maybe only ten hours a month would suffice to stay on the list maintaining and improving the thing. Heck maybe more than one developer on the team could get on the list, both bitcoin and open transactions have more than one developer each receiving a whole share per round.

Consider that quite likely both open transactions and bitcoin are getting 48 shares a year or so if they each have four developers who each get one share.

That is after they already developed the software, they got nothing from us until they already had good code proven and working for a long time, albeit in Open Transactions case it was not ready for grandma. (Nor is bitcoin yet, arguably.)

-MarkM-

[dalamar96]

Ok, I guess I am out as far as the auction site is concerned. There are too many pitfalls that people are looking over or are just brushing off. I think it is a good idea, but I don't think it is being gone about the right way so I wish you the best! I hope it works out as I too agree that it would be a great boon for DevCoin if it made it.

Chad

[sidhujag]

One massive advantage of free open source would be that hundreds or thousands of people will be able to try to make such a site profitable.

I still wonder how many people have managed to make a site built with the commercial scripts profitable, and also how many have even tried.

(Of how many licenses/keys sold, how many are still running profitably how many years later?)

I don't think you realise what a massive undertaking such a site would be, especially if it does take off.

It is a classic "startup".

Who is the dedicates his or her entire life into it he or she believes in it so much founder?

Who are their tight knit team-members who will work full time overtime and weekends on it for shares of it for a year or two or three to get it started?

Given a compelling enough team who has demonstrated such dedication to it maybe buying some equity in their startup by buying them a license to use the script would be a good investment.

But remember the vast majority of startups fail so we really do need totally dedicated totally determined people.

How many words would those people have to write for Devtome in order to earn enough devcoins to buy themselves the script license and the dot com, net, org and maybe some national top level domains of their proposed name?

(Maybe the dot AUCTION too if an auction top level domain is available yet.)

If that is too much work for them, a startup is almost certain massively too much work for them.

-MarkM-

Im down to get it up and running and I think we start small, I think I will need a few admins to help out. Its funny, that Devcoin was one of the first things I looked at getting into crypto. It turned into a hobby after I spend a few k $ and watched the charts like a hawk and cried as it flew down, and it turned into a passion after I learned how the bitcion code worked and worked on the qt wallet and android. I think when im motivated I am able to do some good things and thats where I am at. But I am first making the proposal so we can see black and white and then change it to how we want it to work best for us.

Again, the bounty is just the initial teaser for me, I think the bounty helps get the people involved and it will help. But for me any coins recieved are all to the cold wallet, so ofcourse I care about the bounty, who wouldn't but it is not for the purpose I think that you are thinking. I like to develop things, yes but for me to spend a month slaving away to get this thing working and I have a day job too I would expect some coins in return which I would keep for a good day, being on the reciever list is up to someone else. I thinkt hose who do it for fun, then pay them for their good work that is good will, but what is the purpose of this? Is the purpose to simply give donations thats it? Who would ever buy to support donations? We support the top 100 developers, and they develop things that help us and bitcoin and other crypto's, maybe other things. Those developers crank out applications quickly and are of good quality. Yes I support that long term vision. Supporting a self supporting business is the same. I consider devtome closed source, I dont see it on github anywhere? Same thing here... paying someone for the scripts is negligible I was going to do that myself anyway but probably not now that we are questioning shares etc, you seem to question integrity rather than a business proposal. Yes it will be alot of work im sure even if we start small, but manageable with help? Probably. Better than what we have now? You be the judge. You're asking how many writing shares would cover the bounty? 50 shares plus however many for inventory? You can do the math its not much.

[markm]

Well maybe you could develop such software, prove it and all that, then try to convince us that we need it as much as bitcoin and open transactions so that you can get away with only working on it ten hours a month instead of forty and still get one share per round for being a developer?

Or even if we don't need it that badly, maybe by the time you have it done our market cap will be high enough that we will again be willing to put people on the shares list who spend forty hours a month working on free open source stuff that the devcoin project itself doesn't particularly need?

-MarkM-

[dalamar96]

Well maybe you could develop such software, prove it and all that, then try to convince us that we need it as much as bitcoin and open transactions so that you can get away with only working on it ten hours a month instead of forty and still get one share per round for being a developer?

-MarkM-

I would love to see this. I can almost guarantee you that the person that started Quibids, didn't do it on their own and they are spending a hell of a lot more then 40 hours a week making sure it got started. They may not be doing so now, but it has been years since they wrote the initial code.

[markm]

Well maybe you could develop such software, prove it and all that, then try to convince us that we need it as much as bitcoin and open transactions so that you can get away with only working on it ten hours a month instead of forty and still get one share per round for being a developer?

-MarkM-

I would love to see this. I can almost guarantee you that the person that started Quibids, didn't do it on their own and they are spending a hell of a lot more then 40 hours a week making sure it got started. They may not be doing so now, but it has been years since they wrote the initial code.

If the guy who wrote the commercial script was running a site he would point at it, he only seems to run a demo.

We don't even have a free open source script for it yet so thinking about whether to actually run such a site is maybe premature.

Or lets do a real startup. We get a devcoin venture capital corp going then look for projects worth investing devcoins into.

A number of shares could be set aside for the devcoin project (if it existed: setting it up as a legal entity able to own shares and such would also be useful maybe) to buy shares of the venture capital corp so there will definitely be some capital available and so the devcoin project itself can directly benefit from the success of the venture business and thus indirectly from any ventures it finds worthy of investing in.

Meanwhile still if someone does make a free open source auctions script maybe that will provide the code lots of people will find is the inspiration they need to think about doing an auction site startup.

So far giving away shares to try to finance a site seems to have only brought us people, not profits.

Maybe if we just keep on running devtome eventually one of the people it finds for us will turn out to be the kind of totally dedicated person it takes to found a startup, though whether an auction site will turn out to be what they plan to dedicate their life to remains to be seen.

Currently the person who seems most dedicated to the idea of running an auction site seems not to even find the idea of doing enough writing for devtome to finance his dream to be worth doing thus does not seem a dedicated enough person to found a startup.
 
Even Shaggy was more dedicated than that!

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

Well maybe you could develop such software, prove it and all that, then try to convince us that we need it as much as bitcoin and open transactions so that you can get away with only working on it ten hours a month instead of forty and still get one share per round for being a developer?

-MarkM-

I would love to see this. I can almost guarantee you that the person that started Quibids, didn't do it on their own and they are spending a hell of a lot more then 40 hours a week making sure it got started. They may not be doing so now, but it has been years since they wrote the initial code.

If the guy who wrote the commercial script was running a site he would point at it, he only seems to run a demo.

We don't even have a free open source script for it yet so thinking about whether to actually run such a site is maybe premature.

Or lets do a real startup. We get a devcoin venture capital corp going then look for projects worth investing devcoins into.

A number of shares could be set aside for the devcoin project (if it existed: setting it up as a legal entity able to own shares and such would also be useful maybe) to buy shares of the venture capital corp so there will definitely be some capital available and so the devcoin project itself can directly benefit from the success of the venture business and thus indirectly from any ventures it finds worthy of investing in.

Meanwhile still if someone does make a free open source auctions script maybe that will provide the code lots of people will find is the inspiration they need to think about doing an auction site startup.

-MarkM-

The demo looks usable, I used it not problem. If the ebay one is not good there is another link I gave. Either one will do the job we are looking to do. If we market it people will come. If there is a bounty I will do it and prove it.

Well that is another option, invest in many small risk:small reward projects, I just think we need to do something. The auction site would give HIGH margins and profits, but is alot of work. Funding smaller projects with less work less reward, but put more shares towards it is another way to bring in profit. Just that if you can assess that the risk is less than that with what I am dealing with here I think it maybe better... most of the projects on like cryptostock.com I think all carry a high degree of risk no?

BTW I am writing something up... so atleast I am dedicated enough to trying to do something instead of trying to "recycle" coins for a profit? Which one do you think is more beneficial to the project in the long run? I thought you were a programmer, atleast your a source admin, yet you can't even review my code to ensure everything is working properly? Or run the latest software to test the boundary conditions? Right, you don't have time for that, just like you didn't have time to update the source to 0.8.5 before.

[markm]

So why make any businesses that accept anything to do with crypto? Lets just all hold crypto stuck up our butts and hope that one day someone will keep eating our sell offers and we just recycle our stash through bids.. hmm that sounds about right.

Even for bitcoin overstock.com, cheapoair.com etc dont see adding bitcoin as a market advantage at all right? Why bother creating a service that already exists when it already exists?

Like I said if the big players accept devcoin? hey cool, we win either way.

Great, yes, what do they respond when asked when they will start accepting devcoin?

Also here is yet another idea for your auction site: set it up then see if you are by then too late to get one of the "starting a business that accepts devcoin" bounties.

How much were/are the bounties for setting up businesses that accept devcoins? I forgot. Six shares? Maybe it was twelve for the first few? Yet you want 45 or more?

-MarkM-

[RaffleMan]

novacadian, that is a sweet idea! In fact I thought I would give it a try for you. There is no need for a web sight down in the islands. You can do it on any forum. This one or the new forum that is getting underway if no one has any objections. If anyone does then I will try to figure out somewhere else that payment hashes can be posted.

What I have in mind is this....

Each ticket on the raffle is 100,000 devcoins. You will send me that amount and the hash of that payment will be assigned a number. First payment I will make number 1, the second payment will be number 2. You get the idea. Every time someone buys a ticket I will post it to the forum so there is no funny business. You will see the number and the hash so you will know it is your ticket. You will also know how many tickets have been purchased and the payoff to expect. At the end of the week I will make a draw using a random number generator or maybe something more random and totally out of my control in case there are doubters in the crowd. Hmmm.... let me think on that. I will also make a wallet for this express purpose so there is no confusion. Anyone sending 100,000 devcoins to that wallet will get a ticket on the raffle. When the winner is picked I will send half of the devcoins collected to the winner. I will buy more devcoins with the other half at the going rate to steady the market. I will post the wallet hash once it is created and we can get this baby up and running.

PS. Just shout out if you don't want the postings to go to new forum and I will find somewhere else where I will just post the hash payments and leave the link where everyone can find it.

Stay tuned for the devcoin raffle!!!!!!!

[markm]

Do it like Satoshi dice and all the other provably fair lottery/gambling sites.

For example hash all the hashes along with the hash of the block at which the "draw" is scheduled to happen. That resulting hash determines the winner in some deterministic well defined way.

Isn't there free open source code for provably fair dice / roulette / raffle / etc games yet?

Maybe we could do a raffle per round, with the hash of the last block of the round being hashed together with the hash of each ticket purchase to determine the winner by using the last ten or sixteen or whatever digits of the hash as a random number by putting a decimal point in front of it?

Unthinkingbit could probably whip up a python script that would not only do that but also, in addition, use the hashes of the receiver transactions to give all receivers one ticket per fifth of a share or something like that so that everyone on the shares gets gets a free raffle ticket. The decision of who won could be part of the scripts we run at end of a round to determine the shares people get in the next round.

So the announcements that the new receiver files are all uploaded could also include an announcement of who won the lottery.

Heck we could raffle shares instead of direct already mined coins, so the tickets become even more attractive because once you win, you will be getting more tickets too since you will be getting shares and shares get free tickets.

Well maybe not shares plural as prize, we already are giving out large enough numbers of them that granularity is probably starting to make noticeable variances in incomes. But maybe one share, and have the price for buying tickets be much cheaper than 100,000 devcoins.

-MarkM-

[dalamar96]

See, this is why I am out... Good luck to whomever gives it a try for bounty or not...

[ThinkI]

Hi a DevTome question for a change

Are there any Policy documents on DevTome explaining what can and cannot be published there?

Thanks

On a different note a way of finding people that will take DevCoin as payment for services (ie a plumber or choose your own example ) would be useful.