Incoming Avalon News 8/9/2013

[Flying Hellfish]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Additionaly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

[erk]

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Secondly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

I thought this discussion was about ASICs not how companies got started?

[Flying Hellfish]

Actually BFL was a start up when they started selling FULL PAYMENT PRO-ORDERS for their FPGA line up which was late and they missed the power consumption.  BFL used customer pre-order money to start up the FPGA line and the ASIC line.  Secondly when you purchase some pre-order PS4 or game, Sony, EA, Blizzard DO NOT use the pre-order monies to develop the product.  Secondly because a lot of those pre-orders are done with CC through a retailer, the retailer doesn't even get the money from the CC company UNTIL the product ships (the CC company puts a "hold" on the funds on the card so you can't spend it again) but the company doesn't receive a nickel until the product ships.  Not to mention that both PS4 and game pre-orders do not lock your money into them form months, if you want a refund you will have it quickly (mostly because it would be against the law not to lol).

You can certainly justify this model to yourself and lots of others can justify it as well, however using full payment pre-order money to develop a product is not common in the real world and I assure if any of these companies end up in a court of law they will find out very quickly the law does not allow a company to shed most of their risk onto a CONSUMER.

I thought this discussion was about ASICs not how companies got started?

I was responding to statements you made directly.  You stated my assessment was flawed for your two reasons, I responded to those two points, that's how a discussion works, isn't it?  Now you insinuate I am going OT on those points? (I agree this tangent is OT from the OP)

[Flying Hellfish]

I would say that all this talk about PS4 game pre-orders etc. is what Yifu considers noise.

I don't really care what the Prima Donna considers noise.  A civil discussion is taking place, sure it's OT to this thread but this thread is way past being anywhere near on topic or relevant to the OP anyways.  If he, you or anyone else can't handle a civil conversation, feel free to ignore it, its not that difficult.

[bigbeninlondon]

I would say that all this talk about PS4 game pre-orders etc. is what Yifu considers noise.

I don't really care what the Prima Donna considers noise.  A civil discussion is taking place, sure it's OT to this thread but this thread is way past being anywhere near on topic or relevant to the OP anyways.  If he, you or anyone else can't handle a civil conversation, feel free to ignore it, its not that difficult.

I prefer to stay on topic and create a new topic to discuss game pre-orders.

Otherwise we might just create 1 BIG topic for everything!

This is a discussion on the fact that Yifu's model is not normal.  Pre-orders aren't generally used to fund development.  How is this OT?  It's a comparison of Yifu's business model, and Yifu's business is the topic of this thread.

[markm]

But is it actually "news" ?

-MarkM-

[markm]

So far there doesn't even seem to be any indication that anyone, even Yifu, actually knows how many chips were manufactured and where they went?

-MarkM-

[Bitcoinorama]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

They damn well do if companies offer pre-order payments funded by protected payment means with third-party liability. Quite frankly any company not offering that as a choice, clearly wants to use their customers to assume all the risk of their gamble and not be held liable to over promising and delays beyond reasonable expectation (purposeful or not).

[baloo_kiev]

Main question for Yifu is now: How many chips (batches) are left and by when can they be delivered?

Why asking any questions at all? Any answer from a person with zero trust and sub-zero reputation would be completely useless.
In other words, there's no sense in waiting for Yifu's answer. I can tell you: in two weeks™.

[itod]

So far there doesn't even seem to be any indication that anyone, even Yifu, actually knows how many chips were manufactured and where they went?

What are you talking about? YIFU knows exactly, to the single chip, how many were manufactured and who bought them. He has shipping addresses. How by any chance he could not know?

[jspielberg]

What are you talking about? YIFU knows exactly, to the single chip, how many were manufactured and who bought them. He has shipping addresses. How by any chance he could not know?

Agreed.   Manufacturing chips isn't like buying gas, or tomatoes.  You have a contract with a fab with legal commitment in that contract on both sides.  They know exactly how many were manufactured, how many were shipped, when they were shipped, etc.

[Bicknellski]

I want incoming Avalon Refunds or a reply to our group buys support ticket for the refund. That is what this thread should be about... refunding everyone now not later.

[Syke]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

I wish more ASIC vendors followed the PS4 pre-order model. I can pre-order a PS4 for 10% down.

[kano]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

I wish more ASIC vendors followed the PS4 pre-order model. I can pre-order a PS4 for 10% down.

I'd prefer a PS4 - stuff this ASIC problematic crap ...

[g83]

Only difference is ps4 will be delivered

[RoadStress]

Sooo BitSyncom you said you are sending 40k chips per day, but zefir only received Batch 2 of chips and nobody else on the forums received any chips. Where are our chips?

I don't think he will answer me, but i had to ask. Your lies and your bullshit keeps getting bigger every day.

[HorseRider]

Sooo BitSyncom you said you are sending 40k chips per day, but zefir only received Batch 2 of chips and nobody else on the forums received any chips. Where are our chips?

I don't think he will answer me, but i had to ask. Your lies and your bullshit keeps getting bigger every day.

I tell you the truth, shipping ?? chips per day is another bullshit made by Yifu

[alfabitcoin]

I gues we should start to make big noise again, start new threads with caps locks! Its only way yifu do something.

His 19/8 announce was odd from the start. He start saying that chips are shipping 40k-50k per day and then in addition of 140k what went out already, another 40k is shipped today (why to repeat)
That last -another 40k is shipped today- is only accurate statemant and nothing else.
Also don't understand how yifu from 19/8 till recently does not know how scrypt for refunds doesn't work? How he does not care?
I would not be able to sleep at night!

[Grinny]

NEWS(LETTER)!!

Avalon ASIC
Chips Delivery Update, September Edition

Due to events outside of our control, the delivery of chips have been delayed so far. While the situation are improving and chips are shipping, we have ultimately decided to revert our policy on no refunds and offer the option for customers to request a full refund(in bitcoin) if so desired.

The link to the request form is below, please note this only applies to orders made earlier than June 1st.

In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.

In addition, we hope to wrap up generation one, finish shipping the chips, construct the modules and build the 2 module Avalon mini, put this pre-order mess behind us in general and switch gear into 55nm production, tape out generation 3, and start work on improving chip design for generation 4. Only sell what we can produce in a day on the assembly line, and only what's in stock.

[ibminer]

I thought it was funny, and I was bored... my tribute to Avalon & BFL
http://youtu.be/zKspfMkOnMk
http://tinypic.com/r/jacjth/5   (Avalon & BFL working together to destroy the BTC community)