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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756461 times)
pinarello
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March 06, 2014, 09:11:47 AM
 #41081

CALL FOR BUG REPORTS ON AE!

THANK YOU

sorry for the caps

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"Bitcoin: the cutting edge of begging technology." -- Giraffe.BTC
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jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:12:03 AM
 #41082

The gateways James is working on are multi-sig.  I agree the tx fees are too high.  In Ripple, there are no forging rewards.  You receive nothing for running a rippled server.

... and you receive cents for running NXT nodes which is not really that far from nothing.
It is spam prevention
How much should people earn for spam prevention?

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:12:45 AM
 #41083

I don't think many people will bother with forging if this is how it is.

Exactly
hence, nodecoin

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
wakasaki808
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March 06, 2014, 09:13:03 AM
 #41084

Anyone likes my idea a Electrum-like passphrase generator to be included in Nxt clients? Today there are two new stories of newbies who had their Nxt stolen because they used a weak password

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

Not sure about the Electrum passphrase generator. Offspring does have a passphrase generator since day one. This is the algorithm that generates that passphrase.

Code:
import org.apache.commons.lang3.RandomStringUtils;

private String generatePassphrase() {
    // No space, backslash, newline, tab
    String symbols = "!\"$%^&*()-_=+[{]};:'@#~|,<.>/?"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    String alphaNum = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01234567890"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    int low = 70;
    int high = 90;
    Random random = new Random();
    int count = random.nextInt(high - low) + low;
    return RandomStringUtils.random(count, symbols + alphaNum);
}

I always thought we should implement something like this in NXT during account creation. It takes out of hands of the average person who will likely create an easy to crack passphrase and gives one that will be much harder to crack.

Also thought if it was possible to have an average user just create an account (username and password) and with the account information generate a passphrase from that (without the user needing to think of one him/herself) where the user just has to make sure he/she has to save it somewhere safe in case he logs in from another client.
BrianNowhere
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March 06, 2014, 09:13:33 AM
 #41085

Current NXT circulation:
1. Buy NXT from initial stakeholder.
2. Register alias / send message / issue asset and pay fee to stakeholder.
3. Goto :1

As I always said, forging was created for stakeholders. You (community) always said that "when we'll have more transactions, fees would be better distributed". False! Forging is not dependent on fee in expected block. The only thing that will change is that stakeholders would get back their sold NXT faster.

Nxt is good platform. It is another P2P software like Bittorent. We need to find another way to prevent spam and get rid of NXT.

Ok.  All fees go to the genesis account.


If you send the fees to the genesis account you will destroy NXT because you will eventually run out of NXT.

With or without pooled forging, people with more NXT will get more NXT by forging.  People should view NXT as non-depreciating mining equipment.  The more NXT you own, the more NXT you will receive.  I'd rather purchase NXT than an ASIC because an ASIC will depreciate and I will earn less and less with my ASIC.  With my NXT, I will always recieve "MY NXT AMOUNT" / 1,000,000,000 NXT x 100% of the network's transaction fees.

The one worrisome thing about this Proof Of Stake concept is that it may very well turn out to be like a game of Risk. Where once a player passes a point where they have  a decisive advantage with troops, they quickly dominate the entire game, becoming more dominant with every battle until soon everyone else is slowly and methodically wiped out, or someone flips the board over, whichever comes first.

It seems like this might happen with something like NXT. The large stakeholders gaining the most out of forging, becoming more powerful with every block they win, achieving something of a compounding interest snowball type effect, until only a few big fish remain, sitting on their fat Jaba the Hut asses for the rest of NXT's existence gobbling up all the NXT while everyone else gives up forging at all; the network degrades until the Whales see the writing on the wall and push the SELL button, making NXT just another addition to the isle of coulda-shoulda-woulda.


Average fees per day is 7855 NXT
When the minimum fee is lowered to 0.1 or 0.01, it will probably go up to around 20000 NXT per day.
Thats one and a half years for 1% to be churned, more like 5 years at current rates.
This is not going to make anybody rich, it is enough to pay for server costs, but not much else.
forging fees are for spam prevention
nobody gets rich collecting spam prevention fees
please stop obsessing over the spam prevention and how it is fair or unfair about who gets the spam fees

If people spent half the effort actually building on NXT that they do complaining about whatever they dont like about it, NXT would be worth a lot more.

Isnt that what we all want? Distribution is what it is. No amount of complaining will change that. However, anybody can step up and start doing useful stuff and get rewarded. Anybody. Even a simple C programmer like me.

James

I am not a developer. I am just a guy who likes crypto and bought a few NXT and reads this thread to see how the development is coming.
I still can contribute a thought on what I think I see as a big flaw in NXT gaining widespread adoption and try to influence the developers by making suggestions. I can play musical instruments but if someone doesn't like what I'm playing I don't say "well if you spent more time learning to play you could play it yourself". That would be a copout.

As I stated, personally I would forge for free and am doing that now. My concern is about down the road when more users come along and less of them are going to be intimately involved and willing to run a program on their computer, especially one that opens them up to DDOS attacks or potentially worse for no reason. People follow the path of least resistance. I'm just one guy, but not the only one, who sees this as a potential serious flaw. The developers are busy with higher minded stuff and I think are a little bit removed from average users. That's why suggestions from nobodies like me can be helpful, or not. But to say we should be doing your job and developing your program for you is a little much.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
antanst
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March 06, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
 #41086

WE ARE testing it, what do they more want.

AFAIK there is one bug reported and J-L is working on it.

Just throw AE in the water... it will either swim or drown!

best test is production, if it breaks we can fix it.

Who's gonna fix it? You? What about the coins you lose if it breaks?

jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:14:44 AM
 #41087

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.


How many AE tests have you run?
It is easy complaining about why isnt is ready yet, when is it going to be ready.

NXT peoples, please stop complaining. It is annoying to those of us that are working. If you want to help speed things up, then HELP!

There is a web interface that lets ANYBODY test. You can issue assets, hold trading competitions, all stuff any end user can do.

STOP COMPLAINING
START TESTING

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
BrianNowhere
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March 06, 2014, 09:15:18 AM
 #41088

I don't think many people will bother with forging if this is how it is.

Exactly
hence, nodecoin

I am looking forward to learning more about this and seeing it develop. I think it may be a good solution.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 06, 2014, 09:16:51 AM
 #41089

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.


How many AE tests have you run?
It is easy complaining about why isnt is ready yet, when is it going to be ready.

NXT peoples, please stop complaining. It is annoying to those of us that are working. If you want to help speed things up, then HELP!

There is a web interface that lets ANYBODY test. You can issue assets, hold trading competitions, all stuff any end user can do.

STOP COMPLAINING
START TESTING

James

I can do that. I've been a bit intimidated to try. I am going to bed but will ask for some testNXT tomorrow and do some testing.
I didn't mean to be a distraction, was just venting to whoever might happen to be reading at this late hour.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
pinarello
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March 06, 2014, 09:17:01 AM
 #41090

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.


How many AE tests have you run?
It is easy complaining about why isnt is ready yet, when is it going to be ready.

NXT peoples, please stop complaining. It is annoying to those of us that are working. If you want to help speed things up, then HELP!

There is a web interface that lets ANYBODY test. You can issue assets, hold trading competitions, all stuff any end user can do.

STOP COMPLAINING
START TESTING

James

whatever ! I rest my case with this. I was testing constantly!

james, I will not COMPLAIN ANYMORE.

wish you all the best and hope you finally produce something out of your pages of ideas and dreams.



jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:17:22 AM
 #41091

NXT is a great infrastructure for future projects, but by NO MEANS does NXT create economic freedom and most certainly not regardless of socio-economic status. NXT is for people who have money to spare and are computer literate.

Ones NXT gets adopted on a massive scale things WILL get regulated the sh*t out of. Just like every other internet project that gets to big and imposes a risk for the (world) economy and infrastructure.

I love NXT, but please be realistic.  Wink

NXT does create economic freedom by removing our dependence on the ever increasing centralization of PoW blockchain security.  All PoW currencies are vulnerable to a 51% computational attack, which means that any entity that can generate 51% of the network's hashpower controls the economic freedom of the users of the currency.  NXT is immune to computational attacks, because it is secured by its currency.  Anyone holding NXT, big or small, is helping to secure the network.

Anyone who is forging is helping to secure the network. As a "small fry" holding 10k NXT for over a month all the while being told I'm 20 days 1 hour 14 minutes 29 seconds away from generating a block I am having my doubts that many people like me will bother to forge. I really hope this nodecoin thing works out as a way to get normal people forging.

Suit yourself.  Everyone receives the same ROI from forging.  Imo, you'd be better off purchasing more NXT and forging than buying an ASIC/GPU and mining PoW.

Only a small percentage of bitcoin users mine and that appears to work for Bitcoin. My question, which no one has answered yet when I ask it, is whether NXT will survive if the same percentage of users forge as do bitcoiners mine or does POS require more than that?  Has any analysis been done on what percentage of NXTers will be needing to forge for the system to be secure? If someone tells me that a similar ratio to bicoin miners is needed to forge I will shut up about this.
At any given time if X% of the stake is forging, then X/2% can do a 51% attack.
So yes, this is quite important
It is NOT about earning spam prevention fees
It is about securing the network
If you own NXT. FORGE.
Otherwise it is like letting a mining pool get 75% of the new blocks. Just asking for trouble.

Stop focusing on what fees you are earning or not. Start forging to protect the network. Every little bit counts

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
farl4web
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March 06, 2014, 09:17:34 AM
 #41092

Some cool pics from Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nxtcrypto:



Guerilla marketing  Cool


The founder of Litecoin, Charles Lee, can't stop reading about Nxt!  Wink

Follow the latest blockchain news: https://twitter.com/blockchainguide
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:18:24 AM
 #41093

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.




At first the best date for a launch seemed to be in the beginning of April, coinciding with the release of BCNext's plan and the AT CIYAM is developing, but given the fact that Mastercoin launches it's AE very soon, I think we should move the date forward.
Really? Just like that? Wave a magic wand, make all the bugs go away? PLEASE TEST. PLEASE HELP FIND ALL BUGS. PLEASE MAKE A TEST PLAN.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
mikesbmw
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March 06, 2014, 09:18:34 AM
 #41094

...

the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.

...

Slow? Maybe. Low? No, everyone gets the same percentage. Anyways, you can't have high forging rewards and low fees.
I estimate that average forging fees per day will triple if we lower the min. fee to 0.1 NXT

Most NXT is traded within exchanges, no fees are paid to the network for those transactions. Am I correct?

How then would a lowering of the fees triple the income for forging? Would people, all of a sudden, start sending more NXT over te network?

NXT: Next Generation of Cryptocurrency http://nxtcrypto.org
NEM:New Economy Movement http://www.ournem.com/
Eadeqa
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March 06, 2014, 09:18:49 AM
 #41095

Anyone likes my idea a Electrum-like passphrase generator to be included in Nxt clients? Today there are two new stories of newbies who had their Nxt stolen because they used a weak password

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

Not sure about the Electrum passphrase generator. Offspring does have a passphrase generator since day one. This is the algorithm that generates that passphrase.

Code:
import org.apache.commons.lang3.RandomStringUtils;

private String generatePassphrase() {
    // No space, backslash, newline, tab
    String symbols = "!\"$%^&*()-_=+[{]};:'@#~|,<.>/?"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    String alphaNum = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01234567890"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    int low = 70;
    int high = 90;
    Random random = new Random();
    int count = random.nextInt(high - low) + low;
    return RandomStringUtils.random(count, symbols + alphaNum);
}


Java.util.Random is not cryptographically secure.

Change it to SecureRandom or people using Offspring to create Nxt accounts would be vulnerable

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11051205/difference-between-java-util-random-and-java-security-securerandom


NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://nxtforum.org
Fatih87SK
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March 06, 2014, 09:19:01 AM
 #41096

Some cool pics from Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nxtcrypto:



Guerilla marketing  Cool


The founder of Litecoin, Charles Lee, can't stop reading about Nxt!  Wink


Hahaha nice!

jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:19:47 AM
 #41097

This is weird. One one hand people complain about "fees" being too high, on the other hand they want to make money by "forging" These are contradictory statements.

Well, I guess the point is that there is actually no incentive to secure the network as one is not suitably rewarded by forging. This is a critical issue.
HuhHuh
No incentive?
Isnt making sure NXT isnt destroyed incentive enough
How short sighted are people?
For a few NXT that they are not getting, they will risk NXT being attacked?

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:21:49 AM
 #41098

If people spent half the effort actually building on NXT that they do complaining about whatever they dont like about it, NXT would be worth a lot more.
Isnt that what we all want? Distribution is what it is. No amount of complaining will change that. However, anybody can step up and start doing useful stuff and get rewarded. Anybody. Even a simple C programmer like me.

James, critical input is of extreme importance to any project as well and not to be neglected. It is necessary for improvement.
What is the point in complaining about the past unless you have a time machine?
Initial distribution cannot be changed. End of story.
Lets move on and change what we can, the future

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
instacalm
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March 06, 2014, 09:23:46 AM
 #41099

Isnt making sure NXT isnt destroyed incentive enough

I wish it was...

This is weird. One one hand people complain about "fees" being too high, on the other hand they want to make money by "forging" These are contradictory statements.

Well, I guess the point is that there is actually no incentive to secure the network as one is not suitably rewarded by forging. This is a critical issue.
HuhHuh
No incentive?
Isnt making sure NXT isnt destroyed incentive enough
How short sighted are people?
For a few NXT that they are not getting, they will risk NXT being attacked?

Yes, they will risk exactly that.

It does not work like this. You can not expect the average user -- who is indeed short sighted -- to forge when there is no incentive to do so. People do not protect the bitcoin network in order to protect the bitcoin network but to mine Bitcoins. Likewise, people will not forge just in order to protect the NXT network.

If there is no incentive, this is not going to work and the result is what you described, mining pools getting 75%+ of the blocks.


Lets move on and change what we can, the future
+1
wakasaki808
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March 06, 2014, 09:26:00 AM
 #41100

Some cool pics from Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nxtcrypto:



Guerilla marketing  Cool


The founder of Litecoin, Charles Lee, can't stop reading about Nxt!  Wink


In happier news...

YAY!

 Grin Grin Tongue Grin Grin
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