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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761356 times)
BrianNowhere
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March 08, 2014, 05:19:51 PM
 #41941

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...


That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

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March 08, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
 #41942

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

If you want to be a niche product go for it... we don't need a thousand TPS or any infrastructure a few nodes with mixing will probably do it ...
if you want volume you need B2C / C2B transactions i.e. between customers and businesses, legitimate businesses have to comply with AML laws whether they are in the finance industry or not.

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March 08, 2014, 05:27:36 PM
 #41943

Realistically, to have stable 1Ktps operation with TF will require nearly 100% cooperation of all forgers.  Or we run into the case when its time for someone to forge who hasnt published their IP address then there will be a throughput drop then.

So It looks like for stable 1Ktps operation we will need ability to lease out effectiveBalances, and set up a forging VPSs out there forging from an account pool master with TF enabled that has 1 NXT, but who has tons of effectiveBalance via accounts that lease out to it.  And we need this setup replicated many times.

Im guessing we will want to hallmark these nodes.  Will the hallmark reflect the aggregate of effectiveBalances?
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March 08, 2014, 05:29:17 PM
 #41944

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...


That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

"That's adorable" Oh, okay. You're gonna go there, huh?

You should probably do a little fact checking there bro... 1/4 of the entire WORLD economy is black/grey market. On average, every American citizen commits something like 4 felonies a day. So your 99% figure isn't exactly accurate.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 05:29:30 PM
 #41945

1way exchange to fiat and zero coin or 2way for marketing and transaction speed for retailers
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March 08, 2014, 05:35:57 PM
 #41946

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...


That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

"That's adorable" Oh, okay. You're gonna go there, huh?

You should probably do a little fact checking there bro... 1/4 of the entire WORLD economy is black/grey market. On average, every American citizen commits something like 4 felonies a day. So your 99% figure isn't exactly accurate.

If zerocoin/mixing is only an option for those who want to use it and do not become the standard of nxt core, then i see no problem. It would be the best of the two world. I just hope that  zerocoin/mixing  will simply be a layer on top of nxt for which user will have the choice to use it or not. Legal business will then simply not use the zerocoin/mixing functions.

 

Nxt official forum at: https://nxtforum.org/
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March 08, 2014, 05:36:45 PM
 #41947

in my opinion you are going all ways possible ,maybe better just decide which way is more important
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March 08, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
 #41948


Level-3 multi-bid-ask match test cases,contain 3 test case

3-1
Purpose:    multi-bidorder VS  multi-ask-order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,n ask orders(n=2,3,10,100)
Test Data:    bid orders (n=2,3,10,100) ,
 total quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi bid orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify place bid orders are correct or not
3.   verify balances are ok
4.   verify assets are ok
5.   cancel ask orders,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.

3-2
Purpose:    1k+ bidorders match a ask order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,a ask order
Test Data:    bid orders (n=1000-10.000) ,
 quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi bid orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify balances are ok
3.   verify assets are ok
4.   cancel ask order,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.

3-3
Purpose:    1k+ askorders match a bid order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,a bid order
Test Data:    ask orders (n=1000-10.000) ,
 quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi ask orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify balances are ok
3.   verify assets are ok
4.   cancel ask order,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.




Thank you very much for your test cases!
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March 08, 2014, 05:37:17 PM
 #41949

Coinpayments is closing down: https://www.coinpayments.net

What was this site for?
Processing bitcoin payments. USA's FinCen says they have authority over bitcoin and any company that touches it is a money transmitter. Now bitcoin is as troublesome as fiat in America. Isnt America nice

So, now you need at least $5 million to operation in USA, before you can even start. maybe you can choose a few states to lower the compliance cost, but every state has their own rules, add the federal stuff on top and the war on bitcoin escalates.

James

Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read up.

http://www.fincen.gov/

Read especially:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/testimony/html/20140220.html

FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

Internet no, a huuuuge asshole yes.


Wink
since when is writing software a crime anyway? What has the world become??

Americans writing custom cryptographic code that gets shared with non-Americans are breaking the law under the Code of Federal Regulations Title 15 chapter VII, subchapter C, also known as Export Administration Regulations (EAR),  administered and enforced by the Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS).

This almost certainly would include totally anonymous payment transaction software that is crypto signed.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States


I didnt write the crypto code, Daniel Bernstein did http://nacl.cr.yp.to/box.html
what happened to freedom of speech? Since I am a machine, C code IS my speech


Good argument for the supreme court. Counter-argument: just as you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded movie theater, or incite riots, free speech is trumped when said speech endangers others. If crypto code enables enemies of the state, the public is endangered, therefore crypto-code is not free speech worthy of protections.

Tto be clear,  I am playing Devil's Advocate..I believe freedom wants to be free like water wants to seek it's own level.

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March 08, 2014, 05:38:44 PM
 #41950

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...


That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

"That's adorable" Oh, okay. You're gonna go there, huh?

You should probably do a little fact checking there bro... 1/4 of the entire WORLD economy is black/grey market. On average, every American citizen commits something like 4 felonies a day. So your 99% figure isn't exactly accurate.

If zerocoin/mixing is only an option for those who want to use it and do not become the standard of nxt core, then i see no problem. It would be the best of the two world. I just hope that  zerocoin/mixing  will simply be a layer on top of nxt for which user will have the choice to use it or not. Legal business will then simply not use the zerocoin/mixing functions.


+1 Yeah, that's the way I envisioned it.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
 #41951

Realistically, to have stable 1Ktps operation with TF will require nearly 100% cooperation of all forgers.  Or we run into the case when its time for someone to forge who hasnt published their IP address then there will be a throughput drop then.

So It looks like for stable 1Ktps operation we will need ability to lease out effectiveBalances, and set up a forging VPSs out there forging from an account pool master with TF enabled that has 1 NXT, but who has tons of effectiveBalance via accounts that lease out to it.  And we need this setup replicated many times.

Im guessing we will want to hallmark these nodes.  Will the hallmark reflect the aggregate of effectiveBalances?

It becomes more and more clear that the network of nodes performing high-performance transactions cannot be anonymous anymore.

This is why we need balance leasing. The accounts stay anonymous but share there power with public nodes. If a node turns out to be malicious, accounts pull off their power.

This is also what CfB meant as he said: 'the good guys conspire'. Good guys (majority in terms of balance) support those nodes they trust aka which have done the least damage.
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March 08, 2014, 05:43:45 PM
 #41952

OK this will upset some people here but IMO hardware/Rpi/etc network for TF@1Ktps isnt way to go.  Certainly not one funded from unclaimed coins.  Sure, if you want to run a pool and want to use that go for it and buy one and operate it.  Personally, I plan on just using a pair of VPSs and I will configure for five nines operation via HA mechanism of polling between the 2 where 2 VPSs are on different providers in different locations..  I have already created a very short vanity account that I plan on using for it.  Hopefully my ROI from forging will pay for it.  It will require lots of traffic but IMO this is the way to go.  Like others Im still not quite sold on the infrastructure committee which is one reason I didnt even run for it.

To do it with owned hardware such as rpi THE RIGHT WAY will require 2 of them in separate locations with power redundancy, etc etc etc.  IMO much simpler to VPS it.
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March 08, 2014, 05:44:23 PM
 #41953

Yes I am from the U.S and money laundering is taken seriously by our government, like it or not. The U.S is still the world's largest economy for at least the next five to ten years after that it will be China, who is also known to be a little fussy about that sort of thing.

Actually money laundering is not something the Chinese government cares about at all - you should look into the "stored value cards" underground business to get just an inkling about how things work here.

Cheesy


Admittedly I speak in complete ignorance when it comes to China.

Still a moot point as far as I'm concerned as 1. I am in the US and 2. U.S is the largest economy and will be 2nd largest once China leads.
The winning formula is going to involve the U.S. like it or not. Ideology & Morality are irrelevant when it comes to finance.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 05:44:51 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 06:30:38 PM by chanc3r
 #41954


No. This committee is only going to exist for months. NXT is supposed to be decentralized, not have a "official committee" for years to come. Plus the unclaimed fund wont last that long

Hmmm I hadn't thought of that one - it is quite simple - when the coins run out the committees shutdown...
Therefore the only reason people will do this is to spend the unclaimed coins and then stop...

So by then NXT is strong enough to have a life of its own...
So No one needs to represent it to the outside world... at conferences etc at their own cost.
If someone does represent NXT as an individual because they decide to this will still work...
Development will be finished... No more investment in the core needed.
Individuals/Businesses can just take the public code, change it, get it on lots of nodes and then it becomes the standard.
Individuals/Businesses will individually decide to run reliable nodes, able to forge at multiple hundred TPS.

Individuals/Businesses will be able to access NXT simply and easily and it will be so prominent its an obvious thing for them to do.

NXT will continue to achieve growth by the decentralised actions of individuals doing their own thing but the sum of these actions.

I would like to mention NXT itself is decentralised, the community of people that support NXT have an opportunity to decide if they are 'decentralised' - not sure what that means but to decide how they want to organise - if its not committees then we still need to be organised - this is an important point you have helped to raise because you are right the committees are not forever!

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March 08, 2014, 05:45:23 PM
 #41955

Realistically, to have stable 1Ktps operation with TF will require nearly 100% cooperation of all forgers.  Or we run into the case when its time for someone to forge who hasnt published their IP address then there will be a throughput drop then.

So It looks like for stable 1Ktps operation we will need ability to lease out effectiveBalances, and set up a forging VPSs out there forging from an account pool master with TF enabled that has 1 NXT, but who has tons of effectiveBalance via accounts that lease out to it.  And we need this setup replicated many times.

Im guessing we will want to hallmark these nodes.  Will the hallmark reflect the aggregate of effectiveBalances?

It becomes more and more clear that the network of nodes performing high-performance transactions cannot be anonymous anymore.

This is why we need balance leasing. The accounts stay anonymous but share there power with public nodes. If a node turns out to be malicious, accounts pull off their power.

This is also what CfB meant as he said: 'the good guys conspire'. Good guys (majority in terms of balance) support those nodes they trust aka which have done the least damage.

that make sense

Nxt official forum at: https://nxtforum.org/
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March 08, 2014, 05:54:11 PM
 #41956

All: Please watch this video about the future of Nxt and comment it (here), thank you very much!

http://youtu.be/RtTWUwRL9mQ

Good video overall...  but I am not sure the music in the background helps much...    Undecided

thank you, the music is just a tribute to social network film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB95KLmpLR4
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March 08, 2014, 05:55:08 PM
 #41957

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...




That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

"That's adorable" Oh, okay. You're gonna go there, huh?

You should probably do a little fact checking there bro... 1/4 of the entire WORLD economy is black/grey market. On average, every American citizen commits something like 4 felonies a day. So your 99% figure isn't exactly accurate.

The day the crypto community at large adopts your attitude is the day I'll know this will fail and I and millions of other people will dump back to fiat, leaving you and your libertarian friends alone to play with your toys.

There's the way things oughta be and then there's the way things are.

And I'd really like to see some statistics regarding most citizens committing four felonies per day. That figure is highly specious.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 05:55:34 PM
 #41958

OK this will upset some people here but IMO hardware/Rpi/etc network for TF@1Ktps isnt way to go.  Certainly not one funded from unclaimed coins.  Sure, if you want to run a pool and want to use that go for it and buy one and operate it.  Personally, I plan on just using a pair of VPSs and I will configure for five nines operation via HA mechanism of polling between the 2 where 2 VPSs are on different providers in different locations..  I have already created a very short vanity account that I plan on using for it.  Hopefully my ROI from forging will pay for it.  It will require lots of traffic but IMO this is the way to go.  Like others Im still not quite sold on the infrastructure committee which is one reason I didnt even run for it.

To do it with owned hardware such as rpi THE RIGHT WAY will require 2 of them in separate locations with power redundancy, etc etc etc.  IMO much simpler to VPS it.

You assume that infrastructure fund simply will buy a load of hardware and run it... this would not be wise,
I have never seen that written down and personally I wouldn't support it.

I too would run VPS anyway and am donating 4 to test net.

Do I see this ending up as owning and running H/W - "No" - never seen it that way.

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March 08, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
 #41959


Level-3 multi-bid-ask match test cases,contain 3 test case

3-1
Purpose:    multi-bidorder VS  multi-ask-order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,n ask orders(n=2,3,10,100)
Test Data:    bid orders (n=2,3,10,100) ,
 total quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi bid orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify place bid orders are correct or not
3.   verify balances are ok
4.   verify assets are ok
5.   cancel ask orders,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.

3-2
Purpose:    1k+ bidorders match a ask order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,a ask order
Test Data:    bid orders (n=1000-10.000) ,
 quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi bid orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify balances are ok
3.   verify assets are ok
4.   cancel ask order,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.

3-3
Purpose:    1k+ askorders match a bid order, Level 3
Prereq:   secretphrase,a bid order
Test Data:    ask orders (n=1000-10.000) ,
 quantity<,=,> askorder.quantity
price = or > askorder.price
Steps:   1.   at same time place multi ask orders,using multi-secretphrase
2.   verify balances are ok
3.   verify assets are ok
4.   cancel ask order,bid orders,recheck balance,asset are ok.




Thank you very much for your test cases!

I don't understand how these test cases work or what the procedure is. Are there instructions available somewhere? I've just gone in and tried to break it and reported any feedback here.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 06:03:11 PM
 #41960

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.
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