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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761351 times)
bitcoinpaul
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March 07, 2014, 07:45:48 AM
Last edit: March 07, 2014, 08:54:52 AM by bitcoinpaul
 #41341

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

I received this PM today.  He is interested in becoming a fiat gateway for NXT AE.


What's up with that - who's gonna help 'em?
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March 07, 2014, 08:05:16 AM
Last edit: March 07, 2014, 08:43:11 AM by igmaca
 #41342

I had a very interesting chat with one of my economist friends. He asked me a question, which I would like to forward to you, as I am very keen to hear what you think about it.

What gives value to Bitcoin? Why would someone buy 1 digital currency for $1000?


He looks at Bitcoin as a type of Ponzi scheme: all people joining Bitcoin after you, make you money.

Your friend must be a true "economist"... What gives value to anything (fiat, gold, stocks, your time)? The fact that someone else is willing to give you something for it.

If all the people joining bitcoin after me are only willing to pay less than I did, they will never make me a dime.

I love "economists" that don't understand the basic principle of market and exchange of value. They're simply brainwashed by government and their "precious" fiat.

But gold is used for manufacturing, so the price of gold NOT only dependent of speculation as the price of Bitcoin is. What can Bitcoin be used except of sending money back and forth?

What gives Fed. Reserve notes value? There is a demand for them. This is a legislated demand in the sense that they are what the government accepts for payment of debt; despite the fact that they are just pieces of paper that have no sustainable market value and their value can be manipulated by forces outside the market, and therefore the use of Fed. Reserve notes is not beneficial to the users of the market.

 What gives Bitcoin (and other cryptos) value? There is a demand for them; Due to the fact that there is a need for a stable decentralized currency whose value is not subject to tampering from forces outside of the market. In short, Bitcoin and other cryptos have value because people want a free market economy, and there is a demand for a currency to facilitate trade in that free market that cannot possibly be filled by traditional fiat currencies; and the value of Bitcoin is based in peoples confidence in it, as a currency for that free market, to fill that need that fiats can't fill.

Where did your friend get his economics training?

The value of Bitcoin is everything but not stable. And it is still depending on fiat as the value of bitcoin is represented in fiat. You can buy an iphone for 1 bitcoin today, as the price of btc is 600 usd. If the price goes to 1200, you pay 0,5 btc. So bitcoin is just another currency depending on usd and eur.

The price of Bitcoin can never be stable because you look at stability from the bullshit stability point of view. Fiat imposes and enforces apparant stability due to goverments manipulation. But thw truth is because our economies are ever changing,  growing and shrinking rapidly, you can never reach true stability unless you let the market balance naturally, there are steps, and because bitcoin is still at price discovery step, much to come, and me much comma uses.... I WILL SHUT UP NOW.

In Search of a Stable Electronic Currency  Nxt?  Smiley

would be interesting to study the creation of a coin on top of nxt that If you check this coin for example “baskets,” the computer would calculate the amount of local currency the recipient would need to buy that basket at that time, and it would transmit it, too. or maybe nxt coin could perform this conversion. i do not know

make much sense the article. what do you think?

ROBERT J. SHILLER is Sterling Professor of Economics at Yale.

Bitcoin, an experiment with a radically new kind of electronic money, has exhibited many of the characteristics of a speculative bubble. That was clear long before the collapse of the Bitcoin exchange Mt. Gox last week.

Bitcoin’s future is very much in doubt. Yet whatever becomes of it, something good can arise from its innovations — even if the results are very different from its current form or its numerous competitors. What I have in mind isn’t another wave of price speculation. Instead, I believe that electronic forms of money could give us better pricing, contracting and risk management.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/business/in-search-of-a-stable-electronic-currency.html?ref=business&_r=2

Mark Karpeles, second from left, attended a news conference after his company, Mt. Gox, filed for bankruptcy.DealBook: Erosion of Faith Was Death Knell for Mt. GoxFEB. 28, 2014....

......

With electronic software in the background, we can improve on the Chilean idea and make it more useful. First, we should use more evocative words and avoid jargon. I’d suggest calling the unit of account a “basket.” A basket is a simple description for something rather complicated. In its basic form, it is the equivalent of one day’s common consumption items, like the local marketbasket of typical purchases that already underlies the Consumer Price Index. The value from one base year would be chosen so that, with inflation, the price of a basket in local currency terms would rise.

A second improvement could be achieved by a credit card company or an entity like PayPal or Square Cash: Set up the electronic machinery to allow people to easily send conventional money, denominated in baskets, to anyone in the world. You would just check off a box indicating whether your payment was in dollars or pesos or euros — or baskets. If you check “baskets,” the computer would calculate the amount of local currency the recipient would need to buy that basket at that time, and it would transmit it, too.

A third improvement would be to move beyond just one new unit of account to a whole system of them, so that we could have baskets for different purposes. There should be senior baskets representing items consumed by older people in one day in a given country, as well as subsistence baskets representing the consumption of the poor. There should also be a day-wage unit of account representing a day’s work by an average unskilled wage earner.

with this concept nxt coin would become the reference currency. would become the Stable Electronic Currency

someone dares with the idea?. I'm interested in collaborating  Shocked
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March 07, 2014, 08:10:30 AM
 #41343

What's up with that - who's gonna help 'em?

Contacting other dev team members



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TRUSTEE 
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March 07, 2014, 08:10:56 AM
 #41344

What's up with that - who's gonna help 'em?

Certainly someone is going to have to explain to him how "cold storage" has to be "done differently" in Nxt (am also not sure if the "hash chain security" idea was still going to be added to AC as CfB and I realised that it could also be done via an AT).

For those wondering about a "hash chain security" AT let me give you a simplified example (using MD5 for readability):

md5( 'secret' ) = 5ebe2294ecd0e0f08eab7690d2a6ee69
md5( md5( 'secret' ) ) = 7022cd14c42ff272619d6beacdc9ffde
md5( md5( md5( 'secret' ) ) ) = 19ff59e135cce19e3493402cb3884628

You would create an AT that has the value '19ff59e135cce19e3493402cb3884628' hard-coded in it and load it up with "balance". You would then send an AM with an "output" account to the AT which would "lock in" that output account for the next x blocks (so that other AMs sent by would be thieves before that block is reached to try and change accounts would simply be ignored - you could also ignore such AMs unless they were sent by the AT "creator").

After "locking in the payout account" (and perhaps payout amount) you would then send an AM with '7022cd14c42ff272619d6beacdc9ffde' which the AT would hash and verify it equals the hard-coded value it currently has. It would then update that hard-coded value to '7022cd14c42ff272619d6beacdc9ffde' and release funds to the address that was previously locked in.

To repeat you would next use '5ebe2294ecd0e0f08eab7690d2a6ee69' and then finally 'secret' (you can make the chain as long as you like as it takes very little time to do thousands and even millions of hash rounds on modern hardware).

This gives you a 2FA built right into the blockchain (requiring the thief to not only know your private key but also your "hash chain key").

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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March 07, 2014, 08:18:58 AM
 #41345

Do we have a well organised swarm-team with email notification? A guy, who has all the emails of supporting members and everytime when there is a important article, video, ... the whole swarm-team gets an email with the link and everybody likes, shares, ... this content.

I think this would be a great opportunity for guys like me, who cant develop but want to help as well.
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March 07, 2014, 08:27:33 AM
 #41346

Please Devs, Help BTC38!!! The y want to add NXT to their exchange and need help!!:

Quote
I'll keep updating this post.
Sorry I don't have time to reply all of your love replies. But they are really appreciated. Most of them are very informative.

Update 2014.03.07

I have learned about BlackCoin and DarkCoin. But it seems that both of them mining a bit too fast. I am a bit afraid on this.
I'll go on spending time on NXT as it's a bit complex for me. If you have any data related to NXT or XCP, please post them here or on our own forum(prefered, thanks!).

I'll checked the data and post of some other most voted coins tomorrow.(It's deep night in China now.)
Hope all of you who read this post happy. Smiley

THANKS!!!  Smiley
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March 07, 2014, 08:38:36 AM
 #41347

The value of Bitcoin is everything but not stable. And it is still depending on fiat as the value of bitcoin is represented in fiat. You can buy an iphone for 1 bitcoin today, as the price of btc is 600 usd. If the price goes to 1200, you pay 0,5 btc. So bitcoin is just another currency depending on usd and eur.

The fact you can trade BTC for USD, doesn't mean that BTC depends on USD. This goes for *any* currency.

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March 07, 2014, 08:49:19 AM
 #41348

Do we have a well organised swarm-team with email notification?
yes, 2
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March 07, 2014, 09:01:43 AM
 #41349

Nxt :: Asset Exchange Testing
Let´s get things organized!

I´ve created a project for Nxt AE on TestPad.

https://nxt.ontestpad.com

Anyone willing to test AE please join the site so I can add you to the project.

What is TestPad for and why to join?

We can

- write test cases
- run tests step-by-step
- track tests step-by-step
- track bugs
- track bugfixing progress


Please PM me your username after registration.

Edit: TestPad is charging $9/month for every new user. I will pay for the subscription from my own pocket, so please, only join if you are serious about testing.


Still looking for some candidates WHO ARE ABLE TO WRITE TESTCASES!

AE (0.8.7) looks pretty good and stable. I made following pretty "complicated" test that involves multiple characteristics of the AE order matching algorithm in one test case. If such test cases succeed, we can be pretty sure that all the simple functions involved work as intended.

The test case was the following:
3 Accounts involved, account A and B are sellers of "Peanuts", account C is a buyer of "Peanuts", they sell and buy different amounts for different prices.

Possessions before trade:
Account A: 1000 NXT, 2000 Peanuts
Account B: 500 NXT, 5000 Peanuts
Account C: 2000 NXT, 1000 Peanuts

Offers:
A makes a sell offer: 300 Peanuts, Price: 2 NXT, Fee: 1 NXT
B makes a sell offer: 200 Peanuts, Price: 1 NXT, Fee: 1 NXT
C makes a buy offer, 350 Peanuts, for 3 NXT each, Fee: 3 NXT

The AE Order matching algorithm assumes (correctly) that a buyer wants to buy as cheap as possible. So, C buys 200 Peanuts from B for 1 NXT each (200 NXT total), and 150 Peanuts from A for 2 NXT each (total 300 NXT).

Final possessions after trades:
Account A: 1000 NXT + 300 NXT - 1 NXT (fee) = 1299 NXT,
   2000 Peanuts - 150 Peanuts = 1850 Peanuts
Account B: 500 NXT + 200 NXT - 1 NXT (Fee) = 699 NXT,
   5000 Peanuts - 200 Peanuts = 4800 Peanuts
Account C: 2000 NXT - (200*1 NXT) - (150*2 NXT) - 3 NXT (Fee) = 1497 NXT
   1000 Peanuts + 200 Peanuts + 150 Peanuts = 1350 Peanuts

And finally, there is still a sell offer active from account A about 150 Peanuts for 2 NXT each.

Additionall, the total amount of Peanuts before and after the trades must be the same:
before: 2000 + 5000 + 1000 = 8000 Peanuts
after: 1850 + 4800 + 1350 = 8000 Peanuts

Also the amount of NXT must be the same, minus the fees:
before: 1000 + 500 + 2000 = 3500 NXT
after: 1299 + 699 + 1497 = 3495 NXT (5 NXT are "lost" as fees)

This testcase succeeded!
We should do some additional similar testcases, creating also scenarios where orders are cancelled at the same time (in the same block) when they would be fulfilled


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March 07, 2014, 09:03:58 AM
 #41350

Do we have a well organised swarm-team with email notification?
yes, 2

Where can we sign up?

Uniqueorn
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NXT.org


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March 07, 2014, 09:05:32 AM
 #41351

Do we have a well organised swarm-team with email notification?
yes, 2

Where can we sign up?

PM me your mail
ChuckOne
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☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


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March 07, 2014, 09:08:53 AM
 #41352

Nxt :: Asset Exchange Testing
Let´s get things organized!

I´ve created a project for Nxt AE on TestPad.

https://nxt.ontestpad.com

Anyone willing to test AE please join the site so I can add you to the project.

What is TestPad for and why to join?

We can

- write test cases
- run tests step-by-step
- track tests step-by-step
- track bugs
- track bugfixing progress


Please PM me your username after registration.

Edit: TestPad is charging $9/month for every new user. I will pay for the subscription from my own pocket, so please, only join if you are serious about testing.


Still looking for some candidates WHO ARE ABLE TO WRITE TESTCASES!

AE (0.8.7) looks pretty good and stable. I made following pretty "complicated" test that involves multiple characteristics of the AE order matching algorithm in one test case. If such test cases succeed, we can be pretty sure that all the simple functions involved work as intended.

The test case was the following:
3 Accounts involved, account A and B are sellers of "Peanuts", account C is a buyer of "Peanuts", they sell and buy different amounts for different prices.

Possessions before trade:
Account A: 1000 NXT, 2000 Peanuts
Account B: 500 NXT, 5000 Peanuts
Account C: 2000 NXT, 1000 Peanuts

Offers:
A makes a sell offer: 300 Peanuts, Price: 2 NXT, Fee: 1 NXT
B makes a sell offer: 200 Peanuts, Price: 1 NXT, Fee: 1 NXT
C makes a buy offer, 350 Peanuts, for 3 NXT each, Fee: 3 NXT

The AE Order matching algorithm assumes (correctly) that a buyer wants to buy as cheap as possible. So, C buys 200 Peanuts from B for 1 NXT each (200 NXT total), and 150 Peanuts from A for 2 NXT each (total 300 NXT).

Final possessions after trades:
Account A: 1000 NXT + 300 NXT - 1 NXT (fee) = 1299 NXT,
   2000 Peanuts - 150 Peanuts = 1850 Peanuts
Account B: 500 NXT + 200 NXT - 1 NXT (Fee) = 699 NXT,
   5000 Peanuts - 200 Peanuts = 4800 Peanuts
Account C: 2000 NXT - (200*1 NXT) - (150*2 NXT) - 3 NXT (Fee) = 1497 NXT
   1000 Peanuts + 200 Peanuts + 150 Peanuts = 1350 Peanuts

And finally, there is still a sell offer active from account A about 150 Peanuts for 2 NXT each.

Additionall, the total amount of Peanuts before and after the trades must be the same:
before: 2000 + 5000 + 1000 = 8000 Peanuts
after: 1850 + 4800 + 1350 = 8000 Peanuts

Also the amount of NXT must be the same, minus the fees:
before: 1000 + 500 + 2000 = 3500 NXT
after: 1299 + 699 + 1497 = 3495 NXT (5 NXT are "lost" as fees)

This testcase succeeded!
We should do some additional similar testcases



Great idea.

We need to have performance tests and boundary tests, too.

Could you write a script for that? I would like to see how AE performs in extreme conditions. Especially, when the underlying NXT infrastructure make transition to the next block.
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March 07, 2014, 09:09:05 AM
 #41353

Do we have a well organised swarm-team with email notification?
yes, 2

With mail chimp (free accounts up to 2000 registered subscribers) linked to a single email we could easily implement a swarm system with self-registration

http://eepurl.com/PT-qb (this is a test at the moment do not enter your details)

You sign up receive swarm requests.

If a swarm is needed

Someone logs into the mail chimp account enters the details and sends out a call-to-swarm.

At the moment its linked to a generic email nxtnews@hotmail.com but it can be linked to anything.

Someone from marketing want to pick up something like this?

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March 07, 2014, 09:09:31 AM
 #41354

This testcase succeeded!
We should do some additional similar testcases

Great to see people creating test cases - but it would also help if people created "extreme test cases" that "purposely try to break AE".

Devs unfortunately have a habit of only testing the "expected use cases" themselves (so generally you'd expect that you won't find a bug that way). It is when you do something "only an idiot would do" that you are more likely to uncover any flaws.

Simple examples of such "idiotic" ideas might be things like "0 value" bids/asks or other "out of range values" as well as edge cases to do with zero or potentially negative balances.

Don't just "test that it works" try and "test that you can't screw it no matter how hard you try".

Some bounties for "breaking things" might be in order also (hint to technical funding committee).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
cc001
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March 07, 2014, 09:15:30 AM
 #41355

This testcase succeeded!
We should do some additional similar testcases

Great to see people creating test cases - but it would also help if people created "extreme test cases" that "purposely try to break AE".

Devs unfortunately have a habit of only testing the "expected use cases" themselves (so generally you'd expect that you won't find a bug that way). It is when you do something "only an idiot would do" that you are more likely to uncover any flaws.

Simple examples of such "idiotic" ideas might be things like "0 value" bids/asks or other "out of range values" as well as edge cases to do with zero or potentially negative balances.

Don't just "test that it works" try and "test that you can't screw it no matter how hard you try".

Some bounties for "breaking things" might be in order also (hint to technical funding committee).


exactly. "unexpected" tests could involve also multiple bid, sell AND CANCEL orders, all at the same time (in the same block), involving also buys and sells from the same account ("I buy my own Peanuts, which I cancelled at the same time") Smiley

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March 07, 2014, 09:16:17 AM
 #41356

Yeah, I want to participate in swarm too, but last time I asked I got kinda ignored. I suspect because Uniqueorn doesn't like my views on anthropogenic global warming.

Maybe consider having someone without such a volatile temper in charge of things like marketing and swarms...

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 07, 2014, 09:17:42 AM
 #41357

if someone needs testNXTs - ask them here: https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=832

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, the Next platform.  Magis quam Moneta (More than a Coin)
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March 07, 2014, 09:21:48 AM
 #41358

added 4th testnxt vps - US Smiley so now there are;

testnxt-we - western europe
testnxt-ne - northern europe
testnxt-jp - japan
testnxt-us - USA

all @cloudapp.net

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March 07, 2014, 09:23:10 AM
 #41359

Great idea.

We need to have performance tests and boundary tests, too.

Could you write a script for that? I would like to see how AE performs in extreme conditions. Especially, when the underlying NXT infrastructure make transition to the next block.

Maybe, will try during the weekend. To really test the core, we should not use the great frontends/web clients, because often they already prevent the input of the "interesting" values (like 0 or negative amounts). We need to test directly the core apis with such special values. Is this possible with FreeRider? Didn't test it yet.

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zorke
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March 07, 2014, 09:30:23 AM
 #41360

Wow somebody has just bought up 500,000 on NXT and eaten up through that 500,000 sell wall.
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