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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761351 times)
igmaca
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March 08, 2014, 06:13:46 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 11:11:51 PM by igmaca
 #41961

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

@ Come-from-Beyond

RFC: Parallel Chains concept

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

Master Chain

Contains only checkpoints of all slave chains. Checkpointing is done once a day and only when 1440 blocks r built on top of the corresponding slave chain. Master chain is never pruned. Growth rate is [32 bytes * numberOfSlaveChain] per day.

Slave Chains

Contains only 1 type of transactions. Different currencies can be implemented as different chains. Forgers can choose what chains to secure. The market balances TPS rate.

Migration plan

Create slave chains that implement all transactions types existing in Nxt. Add a new type for checkpointing. Reject attempts to include non-checkpointing transactions into the master chain.

Side-effects

The Chinese could use a separate currency inside their borders for very high TPS rates. Only checkpointing transactions have to bypass Great Firewall of China. Speculators provide currency exchange service - the business they love to do. NXTs become "tokens", users buy them for fiat to spend for fees, it's similar to prepaid coupons/tickets for provided services.


perhaps are absurd ideas but I throw these


ultra hight TPS = 1000 TPS?
How Tps can drive a raspberry pi node?
if we limit the power of forging 1,000,000 nxt accounts then we have 1,000 nodes maximun and we can do the following with this 1.000 especial nodes;

can distribute the fees if a Raspberry pi node gets forge
can exchange fiat currency
can handle 1000 TPS

one Raspberry pi node to forge must be active.
if a raspberry pi node gets forge shares its fee with other nodes Raspberry Pi grouping. (which are grouped in one of the 1,000 nodes ultra hight TPS)

if blocks are forged 1440 per day means that a Raspberry Pi node with 10 nxt who shares his chance to forge receives fees every day since the probability to forge a grouping of 1,000,000 nxt is approximately 1 day.

therefore

Raspberry Pi node belonging whether to a grouping gets forge the grouping node also forging

the grouping node forges a block ultra hight TPS blok
And the Raspberry Pi node forges a lighter block

what happens if you attack one of the 1,000 nodes?

as the power to forge remains in raspberri pi nodes the network security remains unchanged.
it may happen that momentarily not reached 1,000 TPS

note the criteria to limit the power of forging an account 1,000,000 nxt is due to 1440 blocks are generated in a day and therefore the chance is about one day.

if the number of blocks per day for example increase to 14400 per day the criteria to limit the power of forging change to 100,000 nxt account as tantamount to a chance of about one day.

why one day?
because all accounts that they want to forge if they are always active every day receive fees
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March 08, 2014, 06:18:40 PM
 #41962

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

Man I just typed out a huge response as to why this doesn't make any sense and in so doing realized why it makes sense. That is brilliant. Yes it makes perfect sense. Though you dont need a 24 hour limitation. You only need to time limit it to as many blocks as we expect a merchant to need in order to feel secure. 6 maybe 10. 24 hour time lock would allow you to do thinks like buy your own private island with an instantly secure transaction but there is a tradeoff there. is it really worth locking people out of spending their funds for a full 24 hours just so a couple of guys who do HUGE transactions can feel instantly secure. Or is the better trade off to not let people make instantly secure HUGE transactions but also not have to have their nxt locked away for so long.

*edit* note that its still vulnerable against an attempted quintuple spend attack Cheesy.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 08, 2014, 06:19:47 PM
 #41963


FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

James is a machine Grin

looking forward to first delivery of that machine Grin

bla bla bla
https://github.com/jl777/multigateway

and what exactly do i buy with this multigateway what is its purpose, and its centralized

apperently this is of no value for nxt as price is declined even more. actualy i can do nothing with your code.
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March 08, 2014, 06:25:26 PM
 #41964

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...




That's adorable. It's called passing a law and enforcing it. 99% of citizens are pretty much law abiding. Yes crypto can survive as a blackmarket activity practiced by people willing to risk imprisonment, but it will be good only for drugs, guns, child porn and prostitution.

"That's adorable" Oh, okay. You're gonna go there, huh?

You should probably do a little fact checking there bro... 1/4 of the entire WORLD economy is black/grey market. On average, every American citizen commits something like 4 felonies a day. So your 99% figure isn't exactly accurate.

The day the crypto community at large adopts your attitude is the day I'll know this will fail and I and millions of other people will dump back to fiat, leaving you and your libertarian friends alone to play with your toys.

There's the way things oughta be and then there's the way things are.

And I'd really like to see some statistics regarding most citizens committing four felonies per day. That figure is highly specious.

Pfft! How old are you? You do realize things written down arbitrarily on pieces of paper that can change at any moment according to the political whims of whoever is in power, mean NOTHING (except for consequences) to people, right? How do you explain file sharing? Do you know all the laws currently on paper? If not, then gtfo. You're probably committing a felony right now.

And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 06:27:20 PM
 #41965

Plus the unclaimed fund wont last that long

I hope you are right, because that would mean that there were a lot of good projects in a small time that got funded.



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March 08, 2014, 06:27:56 PM
 #41966

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

Man I just typed out a huge response as to why this doesn't make any sense and in so doing realized why it makes sense. That is brilliant. Yes it makes perfect sense. Though you dont need a 24 hour limitation. You only need to time limit it to as many blocks as we expect a merchant to need in order to feel secure. 6 maybe 10. 24 hour time lock would allow you to do thinks like buy your own private island with an instantly secure transaction but there is a tradeoff there. is it really worth locking people out of spending their funds for a full 24 hours just so a couple of guys who do HUGE transactions can feel instantly secure. Or is the better trade off to not let people make instantly secure HUGE transactions but also not have to have their nxt locked away for so long.

*edit* note that its still vulnerable against an attempted quintuple spend attack Cheesy.

I agree, its a great idea to hold NXT for instant transactions, I just put a response in the linked thread to see why it can't be done using a reserve balance on the normal account otherwise we have further complexity for the user.

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March 08, 2014, 06:28:31 PM
 #41967

Plus the unclaimed fund wont last that long

I hope you are right, because that would mean that there were a lot of good projects in a small time that got funded.


+1

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March 08, 2014, 06:31:01 PM
 #41968

Sorry guys - another one from me.... I circulated this to the Infrastructure guys ... Ricky has correctly identified this 'unfinished business' should be commented on by the community and the committees should then coordinate, ratify and publish hopefully a commonly agreed charter.

This below is my personal view at the moment and should not be taken as agreed or representative of any committee

Ian

Some thoughts on committee basics which don't seem to have covered and perhaps can be aligned across all... I don't remember any of this being stated but below is kind of my expectations - what do you think?

Its not inf stuff but general - how do we demonstrate that we are doing this well and honestly.

Not sure if its been stated 'tenure' - 1 year - all committees? - re-election all at same time with a non-candidate election officer every 12 months.

Election officer for committee should be known 3 months before election is due to take place and start candidacy process.

If a committee member stands down or is inactive (to be agreed) - invite 6th candidate from previous vote to join.

If committee has less than 6 months to election then it can run with 4 members, committee is not quorate with less than 4 members.

No funds to be paid directly to committee members for committee work.

For projects - members can apply/be part of an application but cannot vote on own project or a project they are part of, whether as investor or contributor.

Removal of a committee member requires N-1 votes - i.e. unanimous by all remaining members with a public statement of why.



Sounds good to me. 1 year or "until all funds are spent" seems like a good period.

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March 08, 2014, 06:31:10 PM
 #41969

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

Man I just typed out a huge response as to why this doesn't make any sense and in so doing realized why it makes sense. That is brilliant. Yes it makes perfect sense. Though you dont need a 24 hour limitation. You only need to time limit it to as many blocks as we expect a merchant to need in order to feel secure. 6 maybe 10. 24 hour time lock would allow you to do thinks like buy your own private island with an instantly secure transaction but there is a tradeoff there. is it really worth locking people out of spending their funds for a full 24 hours just so a couple of guys who do HUGE transactions can feel instantly secure. Or is the better trade off to not let people make instantly secure HUGE transactions but also not have to have their nxt locked away for so long.

*edit* note that its still vulnerable against an attempted quintuple spend attack Cheesy.

I agree, its a great idea to hold NXT for instant transactions, I just put a response in the linked thread to see why it can't be done using a reserve balance on the normal account otherwise we have further complexity for the user.

also note that transparent forging would have to be proven first before this could be proven to be 100% secure.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 08, 2014, 06:32:51 PM
 #41970

So it is about TPS (or TPM).

Some random thoughts:
Should we aim high and make TPS one of the big distinction form other crypto currencies? Are we realistic with such a high TPS - do we really need it? It could be a VISA alternative. Do we get there? Maybe only if great things are made on top of Nxt the next months. Will there be great things on top of Nxt if we are called the next ripple, which is mostly a negative conjunction in the crypto world? Do we ever get there when we cannot market the super-decentralized-idea, raspberryPis and nice things? Are we the business solution of crypto currencies? Do businesses need cryptos? The business world is still very hesitated in regards to crypto currencies - if we fail in the business world in the next month and decided today to go this route, Nxt would be dead? How realistic is it to establish Nxt big in the business world? Are there other possibilities with ultra hight TPS, if not business related? Can we aim for both worlds? Maybe 200 TPS? (Could parallel blockchains help?) Can we aim high with all the other stuff without hight TPS?

How important is ultra hight TPS? What are your opinions? What did I forgot?

I want a big discussion about this.

The system that provides the fastest transactions securely will surpass Bitcoin as the number once currency. TF and high TPS is the #1 reason for the recent surge in interest in NXT in my opinion. In fact many people think it's already implemented and are out there talking around 'the water cooler' about this. The other factor will be easy FIAT conversion, which means being somewhat friendly to the banking system. Ease of use for regular people is also very very important. Ripple is beating NXT already in all of these areas. So to beat ripple and the others NXT needs to win on these fronts AND be more decentralized and free-standing.

The real question is if the goal is for NXT to be the currency that takes Bitcoin's place, or if it's happy as a 2nd or 3rd tier system that co-exists with other Alt currencies and becomes known as merely a decentralized platform to trade your fake money for different fake money that no one wants or needs or can use except for speculation. Once the current coin boom ends there will probably be a few cryptos that survive and interest in exchanges will die down. People may exchange real world assets with the AE but it's really hard to get people to change old habits. And unless AE gets accepted by the banking system AND the government, centralized exchanges will still be needed for FIAT conversion. The one way around that problem is to be so awesome as a form of currency that easy conversion to FIAT is not needed. That means popular usage amongst buyers, suppliers and consumers. Then everyone can HODL their NXT and not worry about converting. Volatility/Stability is also an issue here, where BTC is obviously lacking.

There's a VERY limited amount of people who dream about issuing their own currency or starting an IPO or even investing in one, but EVERYBODY needs to spend money and EVERYBODY would consider using an alternative that works easier and better than credit and debit cards and also protects against identity theft. EVERYONE also needs a way to perform fast, secure MICRO-TRANSACTIONS on the internet. Being able to quickly send .25 can potentially solve music and movie piracy, revive the online newspapers and allow people to monetize internet content.

Once these important fronts are won, then people might start looking more closely at the other features, such as AE, Aliasing, etc. But if no one is using NXT for the everyday stuff, no one may discover them or they will discover them on another platform like Ripple, Ethereum, EMunie etc. It's a very darwinian thing going on right now. The fittest will survive.

My two cents, or should I say .5 NXT


I don't know. It depends on why people want a fast transaction. If the sole reason is for point of purchase sales slow transaction speed of the network could potentially be overcome be other means. I think that the overall structure of NXT allows for more responsiveness and flexibility of use, and that fact will allow for people to identify more innovative ways to solve problems. NXT has more uses than Bitcoin does. This is what we have to make people aware of. This is the strength of NXT, and should be the focal selling point.

Ripple (which puts these selling points first as well) has been around longer than Bitcoin or at least nearly as long I believe. Which one is getting more attention? It's the one that is known for it's potential to revolutionize remittance and payments. It's the sexiest feature and I believe it is downplayed at our peril.


I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.
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March 08, 2014, 06:34:01 PM
 #41971

@BrianNowHere
there are 2 things why cryptos will be successfull:

- Superior, costefficent system
- No governments can control the system


I thought your were a cool guy, but your attitute here sucks, to be honest

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March 08, 2014, 06:37:20 PM
 #41972

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

This thread is dedicated to discussion of Nxt features (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.0), don't confuse it with Bitcoin or other altcoins.


In Bitcoin a payment is made by transferring all coins from input to output addresses with difference between input and output paid as transaction fee.  If someone wants to send only part of the coins they must send the rest back to one of their own addresses.  An attempt to use the same input twice is a double-spending, only one of the transactions will be confirmed even if enough money is sent back.

Unlike Bitcoin and its forks, Nxt uses a single account instead of multiple addresses for each user.  It is possible to send multiple transactions from the same source address (called "account"), all these transactions will be confirmed if the account holds enough coins.  Someone still can attempt a double-spending by paying for something with low fee and then sending all their coins to other account with higher fee, making it impossible to confirm the first payment.

We can counteract a double-spending attack in Nxt by using special accounts.  A special account has certain limits that don't let to create transactions for more than (for example) 1/10th of the balance in total within a 24 hour timeframe.  The network will simply ignore transactions and blocks that violate this rule.

A merchant (or a vending machine) can accept payments from special accounts without waiting for confirmations.  The only thing should be done is checking that a received transaction doesn't violate the rule.

Does anybody see flaws or disadvantages in such design?

P.S.  Payment privacy in Nxt will be provided via mixing.

One disadvantage I see is that people might be reluctant to do it because what happens if a crisis occurs? Ie: a major bug is found, the NXT economy collapses, Mt Gox scenario, etc. However, it might work for people's hot wallets ie: an account set up for "mad money" with only trivial amounts held there.

In that scenario I think it should be as easy o set up as possible ie: checking a box saying "designate this account as hot wallet" with a clear explanation of the implications posted and warning about putting large amounts there.

Iis there a way to simply have the client watch for double-spends until confirmations come in? I thought that's what the "double-spending transactions" servlet was going to be for when implemented.

Quote
P.S.  Payment privacy in Nxt will be provided via mixing.

IMHO I think mixing stands a high chance of being made illegal in the future. Tread with caution.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 06:40:22 PM
 #41973

@BrianNowHere
there are 2 things why cryptos will be successfull:

- Superior, costefficent system
- No governments can control the system


I thought your were a cool guy, but your attitute here sucks, to be honest

I can say the same for a lot of others here. If you think I have a bad attitude that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

I am not trolling, I am contributing my .5 nxt to the conversation. I am saying the things I believe and gauging reactions so I
can see where this thing is going. If I see it heading towards a wall you won't have to worry about my attitude any more.

I am a cool guy.

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March 08, 2014, 06:40:38 PM
 #41974

Sounds good to me...  it's basically the same thing as issuing and funding an electronic Debit Card (BCNext: special account) through online banking... Debit Cards usually have spending limits too regardless of the balance (BCNext: 1/10th of the balance in total within a 24 hour timeframe)...   Wink

This also could be used as a semi-cold wallet...
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March 08, 2014, 06:41:54 PM
 #41975


IMHO I think mixing stands a high chance of being made illegal in the future. Tread with caution.

I struggle to see how they would be able to define a "mixer". If they outlaw a certain type, just make another slighty modified one.
They would have to downright outlaw anonymity then...
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March 08, 2014, 06:42:27 PM
 #41976


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 06:42:41 PM
 #41977

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

They could ban it from being accepted for trade, Both for exchanged fiat and for products or services. If You can't exchange it, it becomes worthless. Brian is right, in my opinion. There is going to have to be a level in the community that operates in full view. This will be a needed mode of business, not just for legal reasons. It will help to make people more trusting in using cryptos if there are options for conducting transactions that don't put off the shady vibe of a craigslist transaction.

It's going to come down to what people want more. Do they want a currency that is going to comply with a bunch of regulations, or do they want a currency that is going to provide stuff like anonymity and other free market tools. I don't know exactly what's going to happen as far as regulations go, because it seems like it will be impossible with all the different arbitrary laws all over the world. I think cryptos in general are going to open up a HUGE can of worms for the entire world. I'm excited about it.

I think you are right. And I think that there is going to be no way to avoid regulation. There are going to have to be levels of the crypto community that will be forced to operate in plain view. There is no way that government is not going to do there damdest to get there share. But there will still be levels of anonymity. Regulations will be more focused toward business. They will find a way to tax what tax.
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March 08, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
 #41978

Any online nodes have enabled APICors? (for ajax cross domain)
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March 08, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
 #41979


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 11:14:42 PM by igmaca
 #41980

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

@ jl777

We need high TPS and also support lightweight nodes

perhaps are absurd ideas but I throw these


ultra hight TPS = 1000 TPS?
How Tps can drive a raspberry pi node?
if we limit the power of forging 1,000,000 nxt accounts then we have 1,000 nodes maximun and we can do the following with this 1.000 especial nodes;

can distribute the fees if a Raspberry pi node gets forge
can exchange fiat currency
can handle 1000 TPS

one Raspberry pi node to forge must be active.
if a raspberry pi node gets forge shares its fee with other nodes Raspberry Pi grouping. (which are grouped in one of the 1,000 nodes ultra hight TPS)

if blocks are forged 1440 per day means that a Raspberry Pi node with 10 nxt who shares his chance to forge receives fees every day since the probability to forge a grouping of 1,000,000 nxt is approximately 1 day.

therefore

Raspberry Pi node belonging whether to a grouping gets forge the grouping node also forging

the grouping node forges a block ultra hight TPS blok
And the Raspberry Pi node forges a lighter block

what happens if you attack one of the 1,000 nodes?

as the power to forge remains in raspberri pi nodes the network security remains unchanged.
it may happen that momentarily not reached 1,000 TPS

note the criteria to limit the power of forging an account 1,000,000 nxt is due to 1440 blocks are generated in a day and therefore the chance is about one day.

if the number of blocks per day for example increase to 14400 per day the criteria to limit the power of forging change to 100,000 nxt account as tantamount to a chance of about one day.

why one day?
because all accounts that they want to forge if they are always active every day receive fees
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