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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761351 times)
Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
 #41921

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You know even the term "money laundering" would make zero sense to someone from the 19th century (and money has been around for thousands of years).

Perhaps you are from the US?

Many other countries in the world don't "give a fuck" about money laundering (to them money is not "dirty or clean" it is just "money").

And what is considered criminal in one country is not in another (as for "terrorists" you do know that Nelson Mandella was labelled as that for many years and the US *agreed*).

If the US wants to become the "land of big brother" that is up to them - but I am not interested in being a part of that.


You are right Ciyam. it wasn't like that in the U.S. until about 100 years ago. Ever since then the people of this country have been getting legislatively gangstered, and because the gangsterism is done in the guise of law, it seems most people are OK with it. That is the battle we are fighting.  
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March 08, 2014, 04:15:08 PM
 #41922

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
NxtMinnow
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March 08, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
 #41923

Hi rickyjames,

Thanks for your hard work in Austin.  I will hand out the flyers in San Francisco and mail them on to the next Conference.

Texas Bitcoin Conference NXT Marketing Brochure

I would like to thank bitcoinpaul, w4llace, LiQio, EvilDave and especially mvag for their prompt and generous assistance in revising my primitive, clumsy attempt at an NXT marketing brochure into this thing of beauty:

http://nxt.sx/images/resources/NXT-Brochure-4.pdf

It's still wordy, and that's my fault.  Still, This Is A Great Job.

And thank you again, generous donor, in funding 5000 copies of this to be printed at Austin, TX for my pickup there on Tuesday.

NxtMinnow, I will be sending you what I don't use in Austin for you to hand out in San Francisco.  Mail 'em on to the next Conference when you're done with them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5398685#msg5398685

Now, on to getting my new new2nxt.com website shaped up over this weekend...

rickyjames
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March 08, 2014, 04:17:18 PM
 #41924

Coinpayments is closing down: https://www.coinpayments.net

What was this site for?
Processing bitcoin payments. USA's FinCen says they have authority over bitcoin and any company that touches it is a money transmitter. Now bitcoin is as troublesome as fiat in America. Isnt America nice

So, now you need at least $5 million to operation in USA, before you can even start. maybe you can choose a few states to lower the compliance cost, but every state has their own rules, add the federal stuff on top and the war on bitcoin escalates.

James

Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read up.

http://www.fincen.gov/

Read especially:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/testimony/html/20140220.html

FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

Internet no, a huuuuge asshole yes.


Wink
since when is writing software a crime anyway? What has the world become??

Americans writing custom cryptographic code that gets shared with non-Americans are breaking the law under the Code of Federal Regulations Title 15 chapter VII, subchapter C, also known as Export Administration Regulations (EAR),  administered and enforced by the Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS).

This almost certainly would include totally anonymous payment transaction software that is crypto signed.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States

Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 04:26:11 PM
 #41925

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

They could ban it from being accepted for trade, Both for exchanged fiat and for products or services. If You can't exchange it, it becomes worthless. Brian is right, in my opinion. There is going to have to be a level in the community that operates in full view. This will be a needed mode of business, not just for legal reasons. It will help to make people more trusting in using cryptos if there are options for conducting transactions that don't put off the shady vibe of a craigslist transaction.
chanc3r
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March 08, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
 #41926

... the community/early adopters should find a way to cover his (and the other core devs) expenses.
My personal opinion is that 1/3 of unclaimed funds should go for audit/whitepaper, 1/3 for core devs and 1/3 for marketing.
- agree 100% !  No infrastructure committee needed.

If you have no reliable network then you have no product.
At the moment the NXT network is unknown in capacity and performance.
Decentralisation is not a magic bullet guaranteeing performance.
People who commit to NXT in volume expect to know about the performance and capacity of what they are going to use.
Without this you will still get the unwary/foolish, but when they become aware & wise you will get a lot of bad publicity.

Without infrastructure what you will end up with is a prototype with lots of features and some funky websites...

Don't get me wrong we need the features and the marketing but the implementation needs to be industrialised and hardened.

Do you think that bitcoin is reliant on small miners everywhere with the amount of money it transacts? ... those miners are now an annoyance and big money has already gone into infrastructure to safeguard the mining of that coin to ensure transactions progress.

With NXT if we get it right we can still have a fast, reliant, resilient network for transactions AND people getting a return on their stakes.

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March 08, 2014, 04:32:09 PM
 #41927

Is the issue all about the speed of tx? If we want higher speed we have to use less nodes or hubs with better equipments. If we want lower speed we can have more small nodes running with cheaper equipments. How about security? Which one has more security for the network?

This could be more interesting when we consider the "parallel chains" idea.

Perhaps we can "have our cake and eat it to" by having say an NHS (NXT high speed) parallel chain that is only being forged by powerful hubs capable of handling huge amounts of TPM whilst the main part of the network could be forging standard NXT on low-grade hardware.

Smiley


This is a very good approach - transaction segmentation, i know of finance platforms that already use it if they know the transaction context which can be determined.
There are a lot of transaction cases where a few seconds or minutes do not matter.
In a number of cases where there is a physical or RL context e.g. paying in a shop - time is critical - and I would use the term Time Critical not 'Real Time'
Every transaction has a time criticality - there don't need to be many classes - if we can implement this and use it to prioritise block content and nodes certified to accept these TX, also possibly with a fee relationship i.e. faster means bigger %age fee then we can implement a TX service level.

Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 04:37:02 PM
 #41928

Is there a post somewhere of committee election results? Could someone provide a link? Thanks.
marcus03
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March 08, 2014, 04:37:44 PM
 #41929

Is there a post somewhere of committee election results? Could someone provide a link? Thanks.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5578891#msg5578891
chanc3r
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March 08, 2014, 04:39:23 PM
 #41930

Sorry guys - another one from me.... I circulated this to the Infrastructure guys ... Ricky has correctly identified this 'unfinished business' should be commented on by the community and the committees should then coordinate, ratify and publish hopefully a commonly agreed charter.

This below is my personal view at the moment and should not be taken as agreed or representative of any committee

Ian

Some thoughts on committee basics which don't seem to have covered and perhaps can be aligned across all... I don't remember any of this being stated but below is kind of my expectations - what do you think?

Its not inf stuff but general - how do we demonstrate that we are doing this well and honestly.

Not sure if its been stated 'tenure' - 1 year - all committees? - re-election all at same time with a non-candidate election officer every 12 months.

Election officer for committee should be known 3 months before election is due to take place and start candidacy process.

If a committee member stands down or is inactive (to be agreed) - invite 6th candidate from previous vote to join.

If committee has less than 6 months to election then it can run with 4 members, committee is not quorate with less than 4 members.

No funds to be paid directly to committee members for committee work.

For projects - members can apply/be part of an application but cannot vote on own project or a project they are part of, whether as investor or contributor.

Removal of a committee member requires N-1 votes - i.e. unanimous by all remaining members with a public statement of why.

BrianNowhere
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March 08, 2014, 04:42:42 PM
 #41931

Is the issue all about the speed of tx? If we want higher speed we have to use less nodes or hubs with better equipments. If we want lower speed we can have more small nodes running with cheaper equipments. How about security? Which one has more security for the network?

This could be more interesting when we consider the "parallel chains" idea.

Perhaps we can "have our cake and eat it to" by having say an NHS (NXT high speed) parallel chain that is only being forged by powerful hubs capable of handling huge amounts of TPM whilst the main part of the network could be forging standard NXT on low-grade hardware.

Smiley


This is starting to get a little exciting!

NXT: 4957831430947123625
jl777
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March 08, 2014, 04:45:18 PM
 #41932

Coinpayments is closing down: https://www.coinpayments.net

What was this site for?
Processing bitcoin payments. USA's FinCen says they have authority over bitcoin and any company that touches it is a money transmitter. Now bitcoin is as troublesome as fiat in America. Isnt America nice

So, now you need at least $5 million to operation in USA, before you can even start. maybe you can choose a few states to lower the compliance cost, but every state has their own rules, add the federal stuff on top and the war on bitcoin escalates.

James

Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read up.

http://www.fincen.gov/

Read especially:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/testimony/html/20140220.html

FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

Internet no, a huuuuge asshole yes.


Wink
since when is writing software a crime anyway? What has the world become??

Americans writing custom cryptographic code that gets shared with non-Americans are breaking the law under the Code of Federal Regulations Title 15 chapter VII, subchapter C, also known as Export Administration Regulations (EAR),  administered and enforced by the Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS).

This almost certainly would include totally anonymous payment transaction software that is crypto signed.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States


I didnt write the crypto code, Daniel Bernstein did http://nacl.cr.yp.to/box.html
what happened to freedom of speech? Since I am a machine, C code IS my speech

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
alxx77
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March 08, 2014, 04:50:50 PM
 #41933

... the community/early adopters should find a way to cover his (and the other core devs) expenses.
My personal opinion is that 1/3 of unclaimed funds should go for audit/whitepaper, 1/3 for core devs and 1/3 for marketing.
- agree 100% !  No infrastructure committee needed.

If you have no reliable network then you have no product.
At the moment the NXT network is unknown in capacity and performance.
Decentralisation is not a magic bullet guaranteeing performance.
People who commit to NXT in volume expect to know about the performance and capacity of what they are going to use.
Without this you will still get the unwary/foolish, but when they become aware & wise you will get a lot of bad publicity.

Without infrastructure what you will end up with is a prototype with lots of features and some funky websites...

Don't get me wrong we need the features and the marketing but the implementation needs to be industrialised and hardened.

Do you think that bitcoin is reliant on small miners everywhere with the amount of money it transacts? ... those miners are now an annoyance and big money has already gone into infrastructure to safeguard the mining of that coin to ensure transactions progress.

With NXT if we get it right we can still have a fast, reliant, resilient network for transactions AND people getting a return on their stakes.

+1000000


There is no way that robust industrial grade network will be formed by small miners. Only way to go is to have certain numer of supernodes...

Average users can form network for sharing movies and songs, but infrastructure for serious-real-world business..??  Roll Eyes
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March 08, 2014, 05:04:59 PM
 #41934

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You know even the term "money laundering" would make zero sense to someone from the 19th century (and money has been around for thousands of years).

Perhaps you are from the US?

Many other countries in the world don't "give a fuck" about money laundering (to them money is not "dirty or clean" it is just "money").

And what is considered criminal in one country is not in another (as for "terrorists" you do know that Nelson Mandella was labelled as that for many years and the US *agreed*).

If the US wants to become the "land of big brother" that is up to them - but I am not interested in being a part of that.


Yes I am from the U.S and money laundering is taken seriously by our government, like it or not. The U.S is still the world's largest economy for at least the next five to ten years after that it will be China, who is also known to be a little fussy about that sort of thing.  If NXT dismisses the US and China and Ripple, Ethreuum and others do not, where does that leave NXT but as some weird exotic European thing?

NXT: 4957831430947123625
Uniqueorn
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March 08, 2014, 05:05:41 PM
 #41935

Sorry guys - another one from me.... I circulated this to the Infrastructure guys ... Ricky has correctly identified this 'unfinished business' should be commented on by the community and the committees should then coordinate, ratify and publish hopefully a commonly agreed charter.

This below is my personal view at the moment and should not be taken as agreed or representative of any committee

Ian

Some thoughts on committee basics which don't seem to have covered and perhaps can be aligned across all... I don't remember any of this being stated but below is kind of my expectations - what do you think?

Its not inf stuff but general - how do we demonstrate that we are doing this well and honestly.

Not sure if its been stated 'tenure' - 1 year - all committees? - re-election all at same time with a non-candidate election officer every 12 months.

Election officer for committee should be known 3 months before election is due to take place and start candidacy process.

If a committee member stands down or is inactive (to be agreed) - invite 6th candidate from previous vote to join.

If committee has less than 6 months to election then it can run with 4 members, committee is not quorate with less than 4 members.

No funds to be paid directly to committee members for committee work.

For projects - members can apply/be part of an application but cannot vote on own project or a project they are part of, whether as investor or contributor.

Removal of a committee member requires N-1 votes - i.e. unanimous by all remaining members with a public statement of why.


No. This committee is only going to exist for months. NXT is supposed to be decentralized, not have a "official committee" for years to come. Plus the unclaimed fund wont last that long
CIYAM
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March 08, 2014, 05:09:01 PM
 #41936

Yes I am from the U.S and money laundering is taken seriously by our government, like it or not. The U.S is still the world's largest economy for at least the next five to ten years after that it will be China, who is also known to be a little fussy about that sort of thing.

Actually money laundering is not something the Chinese government cares about at all - you should look into the "stored value cards" underground business to get just an inkling about how things work here.

Cheesy

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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March 08, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
 #41937

So it is about TPS (or TPM).

Some random thoughts:
Should we aim high and make TPS one of the big distinction form other crypto currencies? Are we realistic with such a high TPS - do we really need it? It could be a VISA alternative. Do we get there? Maybe only if great things are made on top of Nxt the next months. Will there be great things on top of Nxt if we are called the next ripple, which is mostly a negative conjunction in the crypto world? Do we ever get there when we cannot market the super-decentralized-idea, raspberryPis and nice things? Are we the business solution of crypto currencies? Do businesses need cryptos? The business world is still very hesitated in regards to crypto currencies - if we fail in the business world in the next month and decided today to go this route, Nxt would be dead? How realistic is it to establish Nxt big in the business world? Are there other possibilities with ultra hight TPS, if not business related? Can we aim for both worlds? Maybe 200 TPS? (Could parallel blockchains help?) Can we aim high with all the other stuff without hight TPS?

How important is ultra hight TPS? What are your opinions? What did I forgot?

I want a big discussion about this.

The system that provides the fastest transactions securely will surpass Bitcoin as the number once currency. TF and high TPS is the #1 reason for the recent surge in interest in NXT in my opinion. In fact many people think it's already implemented and are out there talking around 'the water cooler' about this. The other factor will be easy FIAT conversion, which means being somewhat friendly to the banking system. Ease of use for regular people is also very very important. Ripple is beating NXT already in all of these areas. So to beat ripple and the others NXT needs to win on these fronts AND be more decentralized and free-standing.

The real question is if the goal is for NXT to be the currency that takes Bitcoin's place, or if it's happy as a 2nd or 3rd tier system that co-exists with other Alt currencies and becomes known as merely a decentralized platform to trade your fake money for different fake money that no one wants or needs or can use except for speculation. Once the current coin boom ends there will probably be a few cryptos that survive and interest in exchanges will die down. People may exchange real world assets with the AE but it's really hard to get people to change old habits. And unless AE gets accepted by the banking system AND the government, centralized exchanges will still be needed for FIAT conversion. The one way around that problem is to be so awesome as a form of currency that easy conversion to FIAT is not needed. That means popular usage amongst buyers, suppliers and consumers. Then everyone can HODL their NXT and not worry about converting. Volatility/Stability is also an issue here, where BTC is obviously lacking.

There's a VERY limited amount of people who dream about issuing their own currency or starting an IPO or even investing in one, but EVERYBODY needs to spend money and EVERYBODY would consider using an alternative that works easier and better than credit and debit cards and also protects against identity theft. EVERYONE also needs a way to perform fast, secure MICRO-TRANSACTIONS on the internet. Being able to quickly send .25 can potentially solve music and movie piracy, revive the online newspapers and allow people to monetize internet content.

Once these important fronts are won, then people might start looking more closely at the other features, such as AE, Aliasing, etc. But if no one is using NXT for the everyday stuff, no one may discover them or they will discover them on another platform like Ripple, Ethereum, EMunie etc. It's a very darwinian thing going on right now. The fittest will survive.

My two cents, or should I say .5 NXT


I don't know. It depends on why people want a fast transaction. If the sole reason is for point of purchase sales slow transaction speed of the network could potentially be overcome be other means. I think that the overall structure of NXT allows for more responsiveness and flexibility of use, and that fact will allow for people to identify more innovative ways to solve problems. NXT has more uses than Bitcoin does. This is what we have to make people aware of. This is the strength of NXT, and should be the focal selling point.

Ripple (which puts these selling points first as well) has been around longer than Bitcoin or at least nearly as long I believe. Which one is getting more attention? It's the one that is known for it's potential to revolutionize remittance and payments. It's the sexiest feature and I believe it is downplayed at our peril.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 05:10:02 PM
 #41938

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

They could ban it from being accepted for trade, Both for exchanged fiat and for products or services. If You can't exchange it, it becomes worthless. Brian is right, in my opinion. There is going to have to be a level in the community that operates in full view. This will be a needed mode of business, not just for legal reasons. It will help to make people more trusting in using cryptos if there are options for conducting transactions that don't put off the shady vibe of a craigslist transaction.

It's going to come down to what people want more. Do they want a currency that is going to comply with a bunch of regulations, or do they want a currency that is going to provide stuff like anonymity and other free market tools. I don't know exactly what's going to happen as far as regulations go, because it seems like it will be impossible with all the different arbitrary laws all over the world. I think cryptos in general are going to open up a HUGE can of worms for the entire world. I'm excited about it.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 05:17:08 PM
 #41939

if nxt will do an exchange alt currencies to fiat and zerocoin they will have trouble for mass adoption for legal businieses, because governments could ban legal businises for using nxt as payment system (visa, mastercard)
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March 08, 2014, 05:18:59 PM
 #41940

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.
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