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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761351 times)
ChuckOne
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March 08, 2014, 07:25:43 PM
 #42001

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.msg5592244#msg5592244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.msg5592388#msg5592388
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March 08, 2014, 07:25:54 PM
 #42002


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

I am pragmatic. I see clearly that ideology and finance need to be separated because finance is math and ideology is opinion.
I am not insulting anyone, only imploring people to not let ideology cloud judgement. I'd say the same sorts of things to a liberal or a communist who tried to inject theirs into this technology.

Cool people are confident enough in themselves not to need validation from others, so your opinion on my coolness is very much irrelevant. You don't know me at all and you never will.

Please... You're telling me little condescending remarks like "That's adorable" and "leaving you and your libertarian friends alone to play with your toys." are NOT meant to be insulting? Your insecurities are clearly showing if you have to include little remarks like those when talking to others that have different opinions.

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March 08, 2014, 07:26:00 PM
 #42003

New iNxt version 1.0.8 in AppStore

Changelog:
New exchange:Cryptsy, Poloniex
Now exchange are sorted for Volume (03/03/14)
App now uses POST instead of GET (more secure)
New API to know if account is forging
Bug fix


Download link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/inxt/id802351888?l=it&ls=1&mt=8


Donations:
4894174904569783391

Very nice job, thnak you very much!!
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March 08, 2014, 07:26:51 PM
 #42004

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

You are only interested in the deadline if you are interested in forging. So the descision you have to make is "Is it safe to send the secret to the node I am connected to?". It doesn't matter how often you want to send the secret only if.

Apart from that: You can calculate the deadline yourself with the totalEffectiveBalance from getState:

chance_to_forge = AccountEffectiveBalance / totalEffectiveBalance.Value * 100

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March 08, 2014, 07:28:16 PM
 #42005

New iNxt version 1.0.8 in AppStore

Changelog:
New exchange:Cryptsy, Poloniex
Now exchange are sorted for Volume (03/03/14)
App now uses POST instead of GET (more secure)
New API to know if account is forging
Bug fix


Download link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/inxt/id802351888?l=it&ls=1&mt=8


Donations:
4894174904569783391

Would it be possible to select the exchanges I want to see?
Would it be possible to set the ip/host of the node I want to connect to?
chanc3r
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March 08, 2014, 07:28:39 PM
 #42006


I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.

If you want volume the vast majority of transactions are still cash and instant - these are C2B - Customer to Business... and i'm talking about the 'world as a whole' not the 'western world'.

If you want to play in this space you need to be instant, card transactions are not 'instant' - the are authorised, the transaction is accepted with ZERO confirmations but based on a validity check - it requires one confirmation from the card issuer and this is done later.. There is also a complex liability model because of this and that is one reason why fee's are so high. BTW this is also true of pre-pay cards.

Prepay cards exist for FIAT, people will only use them for NXT if there is a reason, why not use FIAT. Card Companies have a strangle hold with fee's on the merchants, to get them to use you - you have to give them an alternative - why are webisites accepting bitcoin - because they are crypto enthusiasts all of a sudden - 'No' they are using it as a way to avoid paying higher card charges and a threat to get the card companies to lower their charges.

If you use existing pre-pay card networks then you pay their fees?? It costs millions in POS infrastructure to roll out your own.

To combat card companies you will see mobile payments moving into this space more and more, there is no crypto capable of 'instant transactions' yet that I have seen. The holy grail is to confirm the transaction end2end between the payer and payee accounts.

Like I posted earlier - Instant is NOT needed for everything, and we should have some kind of slow, faster, instant type of transactions.

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March 08, 2014, 07:31:21 PM
 #42007

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.


I shall tell you what is wrong in this community!

If you pay one person 40,000 NXT /month for stealing more nxt and sit on his ass whole day typing crap that get us nowhere, and hard working members getting nothing

what do you think other members will do? Right nothing than waiting to sell out and leave nxt behind

When will it get through to your skull that the 40,000 isn't a community payment?
It's done by a private person, and it's his right.
Or are you denying private persons the right to spend where they want to?
Well, it's Emule after all. Wink

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March 08, 2014, 07:32:33 PM
 #42008

New iNxt version 1.0.8 in AppStore

Changelog:
New exchange:Cryptsy, Poloniex
Now exchange are sorted for Volume (03/03/14)
App now uses POST instead of GET (more secure)
New API to know if account is forging
Bug fix


Download link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/inxt/id802351888?l=it&ls=1&mt=8


Donations:
4894174904569783391

Would it be possible to select the exchanges I want to see?
Would it be possible to set the ip/host of the node I want to connect to?
1) i will do it when i have new GUI so i can manage everything better
2) i will do that in the new realease! 1 week waiting (apple review time)
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March 08, 2014, 07:35:01 PM
 #42009


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

I am pragmatic. I see clearly that ideology and finance need to be separated because finance is math and ideology is opinion.
I am not insulting anyone, only imploring people to not let ideology cloud judgement. I'd say the same sorts of things to a liberal or a communist who tried to inject theirs into this technology.

Cool people are confident enough in themselves not to need validation from others, so your opinion on my coolness is very much irrelevant. You don't know me at all and you never will.

Please... You're telling me little condescending remarks like "That's adorable" and "leaving you and your libertarian friends alone to play with your toys." are NOT meant to be insulting? Your insecurities are clearly showing if you have to include little remarks like those when talking to others that have different opinions.

It is adorable, or should I say naive, to believe that crypto-currency will thrive without the blessing or at least tolerance by governments.
And if the community follows your lead that's what it will be: libertarians playing with their toys, child pornographers, criminals and terrorists.
You'll be able to use it on your oil rig nation and that's about it.

I am poking at this issue because I really need to know if this is the direction this thing will be going. The day C-F-B or someone with influence shows they are injecting your or anyones ideology into this is the day I push the SELL button. It's called rational self-interest.

You Libertarians sure do get your feeling hurt easily. Try thinking of it as the free market of opinions.

edit: Just noticed you say you're not a Libertarian. You sure seem like one considering how agitated I made you. I always say, If you want to know what someone really thinks, make them angry.

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March 08, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
 #42010

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.
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March 08, 2014, 07:36:55 PM
 #42011

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.

I am totally fine with that.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
Emule
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March 08, 2014, 07:39:18 PM
Last edit: March 09, 2014, 06:37:39 PM by Emule
 #42012

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.


I shall tell you what is wrong in this community!

If you pay one person 40,000 NXT /month for stealing more nxt and sit on his ass whole day typing crap that get us nowhere, and hard working members getting nothing

what do you think other members will do? Right nothing than waiting to sell out and leave nxt behind



Who gets 40k NXT per month? Cheesy


ChuckOne
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March 08, 2014, 07:39:26 PM
 #42013

There is still no such thing as TF.

i am aware of this. that is why i said "transparent forging would have to be proven first before this could be proven to be 100% secure". otherwise we may be protected against finney attacks but still vulnerable to more traditional forms of doublespend i.e. secret chains.

I currently thought on this idea of introducing a bit of randomness into the 100% deterministic approach ( = exactly 1 minute per block, no targets ).

(randomness = group of equally good forgers for one timeslot)

However, as far I as I can tell, it is susceptible to the same type of attack as the fully deterministic approach.


Maybe, you have an idea. Attack:

Trudy having 90% at stake creates as many accounts as possible to increase her probability to forge.

I still try to find a way to prevent Trudy bloating the forging queue with millions of puppet accounts.
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March 08, 2014, 07:43:02 PM
 #42014

I love the fact that Emule is against private payments Smiley
Good attitude for an investor, that.

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March 08, 2014, 07:44:08 PM
 #42015

So it is about TPS (or TPM).

Some random thoughts:
Should we aim high and make TPS one of the big distinction form other crypto currencies? Are we realistic with such a high TPS - do we really need it? It could be a VISA alternative. Do we get there? Maybe only if great things are made on top of Nxt the next months. Will there be great things on top of Nxt if we are called the next ripple, which is mostly a negative conjunction in the crypto world? Do we ever get there when we cannot market the super-decentralized-idea, raspberryPis and nice things? Are we the business solution of crypto currencies? Do businesses need cryptos? The business world is still very hesitated in regards to crypto currencies - if we fail in the business world in the next month and decided today to go this route, Nxt would be dead? How realistic is it to establish Nxt big in the business world? Are there other possibilities with ultra hight TPS, if not business related? Can we aim for both worlds? Maybe 200 TPS? (Could parallel blockchains help?) Can we aim high with all the other stuff without hight TPS?

How important is ultra hight TPS? What are your opinions? What did I forgot?

I want a big discussion about this.

The system that provides the fastest transactions securely will surpass Bitcoin as the number once currency. TF and high TPS is the #1 reason for the recent surge in interest in NXT in my opinion. In fact many people think it's already implemented and are out there talking around 'the water cooler' about this. The other factor will be easy FIAT conversion, which means being somewhat friendly to the banking system. Ease of use for regular people is also very very important. Ripple is beating NXT already in all of these areas. So to beat ripple and the others NXT needs to win on these fronts AND be more decentralized and free-standing.

The real question is if the goal is for NXT to be the currency that takes Bitcoin's place, or if it's happy as a 2nd or 3rd tier system that co-exists with other Alt currencies and becomes known as merely a decentralized platform to trade your fake money for different fake money that no one wants or needs or can use except for speculation. Once the current coin boom ends there will probably be a few cryptos that survive and interest in exchanges will die down. People may exchange real world assets with the AE but it's really hard to get people to change old habits. And unless AE gets accepted by the banking system AND the government, centralized exchanges will still be needed for FIAT conversion. The one way around that problem is to be so awesome as a form of currency that easy conversion to FIAT is not needed. That means popular usage amongst buyers, suppliers and consumers. Then everyone can HODL their NXT and not worry about converting. Volatility/Stability is also an issue here, where BTC is obviously lacking.

There's a VERY limited amount of people who dream about issuing their own currency or starting an IPO or even investing in one, but EVERYBODY needs to spend money and EVERYBODY would consider using an alternative that works easier and better than credit and debit cards and also protects against identity theft. EVERYONE also needs a way to perform fast, secure MICRO-TRANSACTIONS on the internet. Being able to quickly send .25 can potentially solve music and movie piracy, revive the online newspapers and allow people to monetize internet content.

Once these important fronts are won, then people might start looking more closely at the other features, such as AE, Aliasing, etc. But if no one is using NXT for the everyday stuff, no one may discover them or they will discover them on another platform like Ripple, Ethereum, EMunie etc. It's a very darwinian thing going on right now. The fittest will survive.

My two cents, or should I say .5 NXT


I don't know. It depends on why people want a fast transaction. If the sole reason is for point of purchase sales slow transaction speed of the network could potentially be overcome be other means. I think that the overall structure of NXT allows for more responsiveness and flexibility of use, and that fact will allow for people to identify more innovative ways to solve problems. NXT has more uses than Bitcoin does. This is what we have to make people aware of. This is the strength of NXT, and should be the focal selling point.

Ripple (which puts these selling points first as well) has been around longer than Bitcoin or at least nearly as long I believe. Which one is getting more attention? It's the one that is known for it's potential to revolutionize remittance and payments. It's the sexiest feature and I believe it is downplayed at our peril.


I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.

Bitcoin also has a solution to the slow transition speeds which is off chain processing ie: Centralization and trust. If Bitcoin and NXT use similar approaches to solving this problem then NXT loses an important advantage.

I'm not sure if "loading" pre-paid credit cards are possible except for being a cosmetics/perception sort of thing. It's still just a public key and a private key and needs to be confirmed via the block-chain.

I am very much hoping for the target to be everyone, everywhere. IMHO the best way to attract new customers is with the stuff that's easiest to understand and that is useful in everyday life for everyday people. "Come for the instant transactions, stay for the AE."

Yes it would be nice to target everyone every where, but I don't think that is really a viable target. If it would  create more work to make NXT capable of instant transactions than to get a credit card ACH provider to work with us in this area it would seem to be an advantageous trade off, to seek out of network solutions to instant transactions, for several reasons. And as for as centralization and trust, I don't think this is an issue either, as centralization is not really what it would be as it (in the visualization I have ) would be a free market service, People are familiar with prepaid credit cards, and use them regularly.

It does negate the notion of people being able to send payments to whoever, whenever but does offer a viable and familiar solution to instant point of purchase transactions. And I think that a functional means of instant point of purchase transactions holds trump to being unique and nonfunctional.
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March 08, 2014, 07:44:24 PM
 #42016

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.


I shall tell you what is wrong in this community!

If you pay one person 40,000 NXT /month for stealing more nxt and sit on his ass whole day typing crap that get us nowhere, and hard working members getting nothing

what do you think other members will do? Right nothing than waiting to sell out and leave nxt behind

When will it get through to your skull that the 40,000 isn't a community payment?
It's done by a private person, and it's his right.
Or are you denying private persons the right to spend where they want to?

well than its plane wrong! and why is it booked in the donations of marketing?

if this is private donation from neer g that he say it here and now. but he is hurting the community.

the same with bubitcoin if he donated 100K to salsa only let him say it here
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March 08, 2014, 07:44:29 PM
 #42017


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

I am pragmatic. I see clearly that ideology and finance need to be separated because finance is math and ideology is opinion.
I am not insulting anyone, only imploring people to not let ideology cloud judgement. I'd say the same sorts of things to a liberal or a communist who tried to inject theirs into this technology.

Cool people are confident enough in themselves not to need validation from others, so your opinion on my coolness is very much irrelevant. You don't know me at all and you never will.

Please... You're telling me little condescending remarks like "That's adorable" and "leaving you and your libertarian friends alone to play with your toys." are NOT meant to be insulting? Your insecurities are clearly showing if you have to include little remarks like those when talking to others that have different opinions.

It is adorable, or should I say naive, to believe that crypto-currency will thrive without the blessing or at least tolerance by governments.
And if the community follows your lead that's what it will be: libertarians playing with their toys, child pornographers, criminals and terrorists.
You'll be able to use it on your oil rig nation and that's about it.

I am poking at this issue because I really need to know if this is the direction this thing will be going. The day C-F-B or someone with influence shows they are injecting your or anyones ideology into this is the day I push the SELL button.

You Libertarians sure do get your feeling hurt easily. Try thinking of it as the free market of opinions.

Lol. So you didn't actually deny that those comments were meant to be insulting. Nah, I don't get my feelings hurt by your sorry attempts at trying to make yourself look better by putting someone else down. Like I said, you clearly have some insecurities.

I'd also like to know what's going on with Nxt. The day that Nxt stops offering the services that the market wants, in the name of following government regulations, is the day I (and a LOT of other like-minded people) press the SELL button.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 07:46:30 PM
 #42018

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.

I am totally fine with that.

Guess what? I'm fine with that too. No need to insult people after all. Cheesy

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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March 08, 2014, 07:47:12 PM
 #42019

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.

I am totally fine with that.

Guess what? I'm fine with that too. No need to insult people after all. Cheesy

Hugs?


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March 08, 2014, 07:47:59 PM
 #42020

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

I have not reviewed java code but if we can t send passphrase each time that would be great

This is similar to a conversation i had with Panda about something he was doing.

Why can't a client generate a token using the secret phrase using a component of the request - it could be <current time> or anything.
The server can decode the token to authenticate the request came from the account owner - we know this as requestType=decodeToken exists.

So I don't see the need to ever send the secret phrase when you could send a token, which could even be based on the whole request string...

Dont understand why it was ever developed so the secret phrase is sent for a stateless (i.e. non session based) request.

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