NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[CIYAM]

how do we take an existing AT, with shares sold and convert it to a DAC?

I guess a DAC has more voting control and so on, and the decentralized part could be a centralized decision, ie stakeholders in the company have a centralized vote to become DAC

I am thinking along the lines of there being perhaps "different ways of selling" Assets that were issued by an AT which would require all sales to be "approved by the AT itself".

This needs a lot more thought and I need to learn more about the way typical corporations function to even have a "half decent plan".

[brooklynbtc]

There's always going to be an element of social darwinism taking place when it comes to this technology. As always, programmers should always be aiming to keep the IQ minimum to as close to a two digit number as possible.

True - but what we are proposing is no more of an issue than people doing "the same check" for a Bitcoin address before sending off funds.

look what happened with the bankers and toxic mortgages in the US. Even when given a banker and a desk, and a flag on the wall, people make bad decisions when they are preyed upon.

this is not about joe 6pack. this is about business.

[brooklynbtc]

how do we take an existing AT, with shares sold and convert it to a DAC?

I guess a DAC has more voting control and so on, and the decentralized part could be a centralized decision, ie stakeholders in the company have a centralized vote to become DAC

I am thinking along the lines of there being perhaps "different ways of selling" Assets that were issued by an AT which would require all sales to be "approved by the AT itself".

This needs a lot more thought and I need to learn more about the way typical corporations function to even have a "half decent plan".

"approved" means controlled. means centralized.

[CIYAM]

"approved" means controlled. means centralized.

An AT doesn't *need* to be set up as a "controller" - that is simply one option (that might fit into the way current corporations function).

Understand I am not trying to limit the DAC concept to *one thing* but to allow various different types of ATs to be created to handle various different types of Assets.

[Anon136]

guys we fell behind doge coin again on http://cryptmarketcap.com/ this can not stand. i dont care if nxt ever goes more than a penny higher than dogecoin just for christ sake don't let it fall behind that damned doge again.

[Jerical13]

The market should decide for itself what is or isn't a good direction.

How do you propose that decision should be made?

Auction it?

Vote on it?

We've pretty much already come to the conclusion that "you can't change this" once you've launched it (in which case the "market decision" might be a Nxt "clone").

As long as the option to use third party services is an option, and as long as people have the right to choose to use them or to develop their own trust.

I just don't think that there should be protections that are "built in" to the network that would eliminate the potential for private enterprise and business. People should have both options. If you want to buy something on a basis of trust that you have determined yourself, you should be able to. If there is a business who wants to offer services for secure purchases, they should be able too.

There is no need for voting or auction,  or overcomplicating implementing  of the feature to protect buyers or sellers. I think that unique aliases and accounts being used when creating assets instead of unique asset names would help to do this by helping sellers build reputations; and just because the AE allows for anonymous sales doesn't mean that all sales need be anonymous. Sellers would have the option of determining how public and in the open they wish to make them selves, and could even provide buyers with there specific location and contact info, and make themselves and there transactions open and transparent. Good sellers will do this. Bad sellers won't.

[BrianNowhere]

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

USD is currently the world currency. Everyone know it. That's why people want to use it, even if it's "inferior".

NXT will be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem no matter what, because that's just logic. But we need to let people make their choice and don't enforce our currency.

I'd like to repeat an analogy I mentioned the other day in here which I liked, which is to compare the NXt economy to a Prison. Nxt AE is the Prison itself and within this prison the prisoners have all kinds of needs and they trade amongst themselves. A dirty prisoner will trade his cookies to a hungry prisoner for Soap. That prisoner might take half of those cookies and trade them for toothpaste. These trades require trust because during any of these trades one of the prisoners might pull out a shank and just take your stuff.

NXT the currency however is like buying Cigarettes from the Prison Commissary (In our Prison the Commissary only sells Cigarettes) . When you buy NXT you are getting it from the institution, so you don't have to worry about trust or getting shivved. NXT being a math based digital currency requires no trust at all. Commissary cigarette prices can still fluctuate on their own based on supply and demand and so it will be with NXT (the digital currency).

Once AT is implemented you'll also be able to buy Soap, Toothpaste, etc with a guard present so at some point NXT/Cigarettes will have to compete with everything else to remain as the reserve currency, but since NXT (Cigarettes) are so awesome (addictive) and has properties that make it very easy to trade (lightweight, comes in packs, small size) it has little to fear from other commodities that are not so easily traded.

it's not a perfect analogy I know, but I think it shows how Nxt should be like a little self contained economy and NXT the currency should have to compete for dominance within it but will likely become the reserve currency because it will be universally accepted.

[Jerical13]

On the asset name controversy, am I being dense? Wouldn't an asset from a given entity always be issued from a Unique Nxt address, therefore making it very easy to tell who is issuing that asset?

It seems like an easy matter to set up the AE to only show assets from Nxt Addresses you have indicated you trust and to only purchase assets from them and also to clearly be able to show who is issuing that asset.

If Microsoft owns Nxt address 3498343485498 then you should be able to make sure that any time you are buying MSFT that you
are only buying it from Nxt address 3498343485498

I'm not getting why this is such a controversy.

The controversy is in whether or not the listed asset names should be unique to one issuer, or if whoever issued an asset could call it what ever they want.

[Anon136]

guys we fell behind doge coin again on http://cryptmarketcap.com/ this can not stand. i dont care if nxt ever goes more than a penny higher than dogecoin just for christ sake don't let it fall behind that damned doge again.

I don't see a long-term future for Doge   

i wish i could be so confident. i dont buy any doges as a matter of principal but im afraid that thing may have a great deal more staying power than it deserves.

[jztxeno]

doge is losing value every week without going up, they are at 0 soon and will stay there.

[CIYAM]

The controversy is in whether or not the listed asset names should be unique to one issuer, or if whoever issued an asset could call it what ever they want.

And the controversy has been answered in that it is no different to a Bitcoin address.

Do you just send money to 1MSFT first bits?

Of course not - you'd do your "due diligence" by going to a company's "official website" (in HTTPS) and find where they have the Bitcoin address for you to "copy and paste".

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed* (probably *exactly* what Ethereum and others would be *very keen* to see happening).

[Sebastien256]

doge is losing value every week without going up, they are at 0 soon and will stay there.

yep eventually

[utopianfuture]

Where is EvilDave ? the esteemed head of prestigious Infrastructure Committee ? I would like to discuss the transference of 48380 NXT private bounty for the best Open-Source client for NXT to the Infrastructure Committee.

[Sebastien256]

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed* (probably *exactly* what Ethereum and others would be *very keen* to see happening).

I think this is a problem because of this long long thread, discuting important issue in a forum would avoid going in circle like that, especially if some subject are pin once resolved. We have no 100% thrust forum. nxtcrypto can go down anytime and nextcoin is too affiliated with graviton dgex. I am wrong?

[BrianNowhere]

guys we fell behind doge coin again on http://cryptmarketcap.com/ this can not stand. i dont care if nxt ever goes more than a penny higher than dogecoin just for christ sake don't let it fall behind that damned doge again.

I don't see a long-term future for Doge   

i wish i could be so confident. i dont buy any doges as a matter of principal but im afraid that thing may have a great deal more staying power than it deserves.

Have you ever tried to open up a Dogecoin client after not opening it for a week? It takes almost a whole day to load the blockchain. Until someone comes up with a Multibit type client (which uses the Merkle tree to sample the blockchain, something i don't know if it is possible with Doge) I don't see DoGE being very long for this world.

[Mistafreeze]

The controversy is in whether or not the listed asset names should be unique to one issuer, or if whoever issued an asset could call it what ever they want.

And the controversy has been answered in that it is no different to a Bitcoin address.

Do you just send money to 1MSFT first bits?

Of course not - you'd do your "due diligence" by going to a company's "official website" (in HTTPS) and find where they have the Bitcoin address for you to "copy and paste".

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed*.

I agree. Using the Alias in front of the asset name seems like a good solution for branding and preventing squatting. If the names were unique, some jackass would squat Bitcoin and we'd end up with assets named B1tc01n and look like a bunch of baboons.

Stupid people are going to get scammed no matter what you do. Remember,  people will actually give their bank account to people in Nigeria on receipt of an email saying that the royal prince needs their help to save his millions.

[BrianNowhere]

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed* (probably *exactly* what Ethereum and others would be *very keen* to see happening).

I think this is a problem because of this long long thread, discuting important issue in a forum would avoid going in circle like that. We have no functionnal forum. nxtcrypto can go down anytime and nextcoin is too affiliated with graviton dgex. I am wrong?

+1

I think this thread has it's purposes but for some things it leads to this circular firing squad thing. It would be nice to be able to have this thread be the main "brainstorming" area with all these tangential controversies sent off to another thread that is just about that issue.
Then when that subject comes up people could just be pointed to the specialized thread.

[Sebastien256]

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed* (probably *exactly* what Ethereum and others would be *very keen* to see happening).

I think this is a problem because of this long long thread, discuting important issue in a forum would avoid going in circle like that. We have no functionnal forum. nxtcrypto can go down anytime and nextcoin is too affiliated with graviton dgex. I am wrong?

+1

I think this thread has it's purposes but for some things it leads to this circular firing squad thing. It would be nice to be able to have this thread be the main "brainstorming" area with all these tangential controversies sent off to another thread that is just about that issue.
Then when that subject comes up people could just be pointed to the specialized thread.

Nxt is in dared need of a 100% trust forum. Im wondering how long it will take until we get one. I believe community fund should fund a forum to get thing structure a bit. It good to be decentralized, but not desorganized.

[ZeroTheGreat]

(I recall I sold 20'000 LTC for ~50 USD total, now I would sell this for 300'000 USD. It was my own fault, I learnt the lesson and gonna hold NXTs even if the price drops 100-fold.)

Exactly. There's no point:
— to let scarce resourse out of your hands completely in one moment, if there's no life and death issue (u'll or have nothing, if this resourse'll become useless, or u'll have growing wealth until this resours hits cap of liquidity — market of planet Earth);
— to spend more than u earn, cos it'll create debt pyramid. Pay-as-you-go, cos there's always someone who had to pay.

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

We actually don't know world's healthy GDP and healthy %-growth of it (+ we don't know real interconnection factor). Besides, not only each NXT'll potentially contain more wealth (goods/services), cos NXTs're scarce, but also our life level'll be higher, cos economy around us'll be cured from centralized finances.

[mthcl]

There is no reward - the wrongdoer is simply forbidden to forge for quite some time (this I mean by "penalty"), and the procedure is repeated (immediately or after a few blocks).

@CIYAM, @CfB, @ChuckOne, ..., - can you comment on this randomization procedure I proposed on the previous page?

First X accounts (w.r.t. the inverse weights) choose some "random" numbers locally, and publish their hashes. X is supposed to be large enough so that the bad guy would never control exactly all of them. Then, they publish numbers themselves; if the published number does not correspond to the hash or is not published at all, then the corresponding account is heavily penalized. If that happens for at least one account, the whole procedure is invalidated (and we wait for the next try).

Won't work if the penalty < reward.