NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

The question is do we want everything in AE to be traded via NXT.
If the market really wants this, there will be AssetA <-> AssetB direct trading.

I see no reason to force NXT as intermediate store when trading AssetA to AssetB.  NXT will be used to pay transaction (bid/ask) fees.

Furthermore, we should not let any fears of devaluing NXT prevent many kinds of uses of the NXT blockchain.  NXT will always be needed to create an entry into the public ledger as a transaction fee, and should gain in value as more uses are created.  (And IMHO, fees should be kept exceptionally low to encourage widespread adoption and use -- money flows to efficiency).

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?
c) $1 billion USD
Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

The asset issuer either has the reputation and means to satisfy withdrawals to real USD via gateway(s), or it doesn't.  Once it doesn't, then those assets become worthless and trade for pennies on the dollar -- Simply issuing 1 Billion 'USD' assets does not make it worth $1 Billion.

I am assuming the asset issuer merits trust, eg. large international bank. Let us assume there is an automated gateway so you can always safely redeem your USD assets. [ok nothing is "safe", this is a thought experiment to evaluate denominating things in AE in USD]

Do you see the problem, actually impossibility of anybody depositing $1 billion into NXT AE if all AE transactions are denominated in NXT? Maybe there is a way to break transactions up into itty bitty pieces and use up all of the NXT available in the liquid form, but not only will that create extreme volatility for the hypothetical large USD transaction, why would anybody with a $1 billion USD even attempt such insanity. So not impossible, but highly improbable

Usually people who control $1 Billion+ dont do stupid things. Putting in 30 times the market cap into a trading platform that limits trading to whatever NXT is available from the market cap (5%?) would qualify as idiotic. Anybody that does that will instantly be fired, or no longer be a billionaire.

This is why we MUST allow denominating AE trades in any other asset. USD, BTC, EUR, JPY, GLD, WTI, BCO, etc.

Does anybody really think that allowing trades to be denominated in USD (or BTC or ...) will do anything other than help NXT? It wont affect USD to any noticeable degree.

James

P.S. If we end up helping BTC by .01% is that really such a bad thing? After all, how BTC goes, all crypto goes at least for the near future. Once we have billions of dollars of trading in NXT AE, then BTC wont matter much anyway.

[jl777]

When we talk about unfair distribution...

http://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/wp-content/uploads/countrycharts/USA/USA_Chartbook.html

With a very few exceptions, I believe the top 100 holders in all the cryptos control the vast, vast majority.
Most coins start with a community of much less than 100 active miners and with the way the blockrewards are done, after the first month (or week or day or hour), 90% of the coins that will exist in the next few years are mined. In a lot of cases less than a half dozen control more than 50%.

This is before it hits any exchanges, so it is almost impossible for more than 100 people to get the initial "distribution"

Why people single NXT out for this, I dont know. Maybe BTC is a bit better due to its maturity and DOGE due to its user base size, but is LTC, NMC, AUR, etc. any better distributed? Doubtful.

There are a few coins, that attempt to get a fair distribution, but did they really? Short of real world kyc, nobody really knows.

In any case, how this is relevant escapes me. In the real world, there are people who are born into money or win the lottery. While people envy them, are their constant crys for them to just give their wealth away? A lot of them end up doing it anyway and if NXT lasts long enough, father time will take care of redistribution to the next generation.

James

+1

Poor old whales. If they hold they're being greedy. If they sell they're crashing the price. Only other way to distribute is giveaways and bounties, which many whales have done in the last 4 months, and from all reports will do more of in the future. NXT  distribution 'problem' is being solved IMO. More important task for whales is to pay for developers and infrastructure. NXT whales are doing an OK job compared to most other crypto coin founders, including bitcoin.

OK job? Name me one other crypto where the big whales do 10% of what the NXT founders do. Just one please. In monetary terms.

I estimate NXT is better distributed than 90% of cryptos. I dont have actual numbers to back this up, just an educated guesstimate.

So, we are not top of the class in this area. Nothing is perfect. At least we are A- student even in distribution, which is NXT's weakest point. This means NXT really isnt weak at all!

James

[IveBeenBit]

What James is saying is if one day the big money (hedge funds, institutional investors, "Visa-scale" institutions...) wants to trade on NXT asset exchange, for them to acquire or dispose of that many Nxtcoins will soak up all the liquidity in the NXT markets and cause the price to whipsaw....because they are forced to do transactions denominated in NXT. This means the big money would never get into NXT because they would self-destruct the NXT economy.

The alternative is to have assets CHASE.USD where Chase Bank issues US$1 billion worth and let people trade Chase.USD directly for other assets, and only pay for their transaction fees in Nxt.

Right now if I want to buy an asset, I have to use NXT, which is fine when you're dealing with small time stuff.

I think he has a good point and I can't think of a way to refute it.

James, maybe this message would be better off in the asset exchange thread?

You'll get more traction there rather than get buried ITT.

[MadCow]

When we talk about unfair distribution...

http://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/wp-content/uploads/countrycharts/USA/USA_Chartbook.html

With a very few exceptions, I believe the top 100 holders in all the cryptos control the vast, vast majority.
Most coins start with a community of much less than 100 active miners and with the way the blockrewards are done, after the first month (or week or day or hour), 90% of the coins that will exist in the next few years are mined. In a lot of cases less than a half dozen control more than 50%.

This is before it hits any exchanges, so it is almost impossible for more than 100 people to get the initial "distribution"

Why people single NXT out for this, I dont know. Maybe BTC is a bit better due to its maturity and DOGE due to its user base size, but is LTC, NMC, AUR, etc. any better distributed? Doubtful.

There are a few coins, that attempt to get a fair distribution, but did they really? Short of real world kyc, nobody really knows.

In any case, how this is relevant escapes me. In the real world, there are people who are born into money or win the lottery. While people envy them, are their constant crys for them to just give their wealth away? A lot of them end up doing it anyway and if NXT lasts long enough, father time will take care of redistribution to the next generation.

James

+1

Poor old whales. If they hold they're being greedy. If they sell they're crashing the price. Only other way to distribute is giveaways and bounties, which many whales have done in the last 4 months, and from all reports will do more of in the future. NXT  distribution 'problem' is being solved IMO. More important task for whales is to pay for developers and infrastructure. NXT whales are doing an OK job compared to most other crypto coin founders, including bitcoin.

OK job? Name me one other crypto where the big whales do 10% of what the NXT founders do. Just one please. In monetary terms.

I estimate NXT is better distributed than 90% of cryptos. I dont have actual numbers to back this up, just an educated guesstimate.

So, we are not top of the class in this area. Nothing is perfect. At least we are A- student even in distribution, which is NXT's weakest point. This means NXT really isnt weak at all!

James

You are right James (as usual)- NXT whales are doing a 'good' job, and I hope they continue by  helping to fund the people doing the development and infrastructure work. I think they will!

[rickyjames]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

Yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin market capitalization


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, a NXT coin price is 30% less than the CURRENT price of a one-ounce gold coin and total available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt) and 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

[twistelaar]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

[mcjavar]

I just had a look at the excel sheet in your signature, rickyjames!
It´s amazing to have a look behind the courtains and see the enormous work that is put into the projects.

Keep up the great work!

[mcjavar]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

Because, if the price is around 7500 satoshi for months, it will most likely go up to that mark again, which will make you more than 20%.
That´s the short term benefit.

On the other hand, we all believe in Nxt and the community behind it. (except Emule, but he most probably jumped from a bridge already as the price didn´t go to 0) We see Nxt as a platform which enables building (decentralized) services on it, that the world needs. And this will, more likely, make Nxt the next big thing.

Or not. Who knows. But we believe in it.

[gs02xzz]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

Yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin market capitalization


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, a NXT coin price is 30% less than the CURRENT price of a one-ounce gold coin and total available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt) and 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

+1. Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

[rickyjames]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

That ain't bad for a coin that didn't even exist 120 days ago.  Just wait until we get our act together.  And we will.

[jl777]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin cap


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt), 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

The sequence of events has to be:
1) big money comes into NXT
2) NXT becomes worth big money

By restricting to NXT trading, we limit the total  value of new assets coming into NXT AE to the market value of the NXT. The way people start getting astronomical (moon talk) when there is a 1 million NXT order, the amount of liquid NXT that wont change the market price much is LESS than 1 million NXT.

Let us say that we can be generous and just pretend a 1 million NXT order is routine. Let us assume NXT goes back to being worth 5 cents. this means that if more than $50,000 worth of assets comes into the market, it will start moving the price. If $500,000 comes in, it will dramatically move the price. If $5 million comes in, the price is doubled or tripled. If $50 million comes in, it goes up 100 fold.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person putting all this money. Your asset (whatever it is) has just depreciated 99% because of what you did. Of course, if you just issue the asset and nobody trades it for whatever reason, there wont be any effect, but there wont be any benefit either. The idea is for assets to come in and get traded to some extent, otherwise it is just "NXT A", not "NXT AE"

So if you wanted to sell $50 million worth of assets via NXT AE for NXT, when would you stop selling? When you started getting 80% of initial price? 50%? 10%? 5%? 1%?

The financial pain will be so great to anybody that tries this in spite of this math that they will be forced to stop. I would imagine around the 80% of initial price level.

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT. [Edit: keeping the price of NXT at 5 cents]

James

[rickyjames]

Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

My vote for quote of the week.

My vote for runner-up up is what I added to my original post:

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

[rickyjames]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

Guess we need to decide for our mission statement if we are most interested in maximizing value to our NXT stakeholders or to billion dollar asset listers on our exchange.

[mczarnek]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

[jl777]

Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

My vote for quote of the week.

My vote for runner-up up is what I added to my original post:

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

Before NXT can have a $1 trillion USD market cap, it must have a $100 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $100 billion USD market cap, it must have a $10 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $10 billion USD market cap, it must have a $1 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $1 billion USD market cap, it must have a $100 million market cap

OK, I think at one point NXT did have close to $100 million market cap. I want to have a REALISTIC path to the first lines of my response. I do not believe that finding a generous billionaire to pump in lots of money will happen unless I see pink unicorns outside my window. Just checked, no unicorns pink or otherwise.

So, what is more likely?

A) Pink Unicorns
B) Crazy billionaire
C) NXT supports non-NXT Asset trading and big money guys decide to test a decentralized exchange and we do everything we can to make sure it has good performance and value and more big money guys use NXT.

C) is a lot more boring and will take a lot longer than A) or B). I admit this. However, C) happens to be the only realistic path for AE to become worth billions of USD. That is by supporting the trading of trillions of USD worth of stuff.

NXT has other things that will add to its market cap, I am just talking about the market cap contribution of AE

James

[pandaisftw]

What is the logic behind allowing multiple assets with the same name?
How are client developers supposed to deal with this?

Assets have a unique identifying ID. There's really not much reason to restrict to unique names. I have proposed a way to for asset issuers to assign themselves company names, attach images, etc.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1FsyumJLmQ9ckLNkHlmW1oPRGOoK3oAg_pVjFz3s0fNw/edit#slide=id.g1ce2334a0_00

With tags and sorting, I think the AE will be rather organized.

Pandaisftw

[Armando]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

There are enough reasons:

- Multipool started. Look at BlackCoin rates, they were driven to the sky because they we first PoS coin with multipool. But what so special about that coin? Imagine how high NXT can grow - it has 1000 times more potential, and I bet many miners who will start mining to sell NXT for a quick buck, will come to conclusion that it will be better to keep it. Also, if the pool will be paying 1-2 times a day, this will create nice rollercoaster graph (MP buying - price is up, miners chashing out - price goes down), that will attract daytraders

- Big stakeholder finally stopped cashing out. Now there are more stakeholders, and his coins are distributed among more people. He sold more then 1% of total coins amount as I can see, and the price was not affected dramatically, that shows great buy support.

- Buy walls are coming, and not too many sell orders, take a look https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bter/nxtbtc And according to EMA we will grow long time)

- Much WOW features are coming. AE, new clients and many other interesting stuff. Also seems that activity of NXT promoters is increasing, so I strongly believe we'll see  a new price record in near future.

Unlike 99.9% altcoins, NXT creates a real investment opportunity, it's much bigger then army of pump and dump clones. Damn, and there are people who seriously call buying AUR, SPA etc "making an investment") I've made some money there too, but I am putting much more coins here, then even to hottest bublecoin. And the best thing is that NXT has potential for 1000s % increase, almost without any risk!

[jl777]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

We can have both. I do not see why it is mutually exclusive at all. In fact, I predict that the vast majority of trading in the AE will be against NXT, just like the vast majority of trading in Ripple is against XRP. This is probably due to the counterparty risks

However, I want to make sure that if OPEC wanted to start trading oil for gold, or oil for CNY, or oil for pink unicorns that they will have a viable option with NXT AE

James

[jl777]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

That is how multisig works. Usually none of the parties knows the others private keys.

I dont think I can divulge any details about this regarding NXT, yet

However I am pretty sure CfB used the magic word "multisig" in one of his recent posts

James

P.S. I agree that multisig will be a massively useful feature

[rickyjames]

I want to have a REALISTIC path to the first lines of my response. I do not believe that finding a generous billionaire to pump in lots of money will happen unless I see pink unicorns outside my window. Just checked, no unicorns pink or otherwise.

NXT has other things that will add to its market cap, I am just talking about the market cap contribution of AE.

The REALISTIC path for insane levels of NXT market cap growth is the same REALISTIC path that Bitcoin has followed and is following now.  It's not one billionaire pumping in lots of money.  It's billions of people pumping in a little bit of money each.  Bitcoin has under 2 million users and it got over half of them in the last six months.  There's 300 million people in China on the internet.  Most of the volume in NXT growth is from BTER = Chinese who haven't decided yet if Bitcoin or NXT is their cryptocurrency of choice.  If you think that incredible levels of market utilization growth and value growth are all behind us instead of in front of us for the yet-to-be-crowned king of cryptocoin... think about it some more.  We are all still on the chain getting pulled up to the first drop on the roller coaster ride.

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.