NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[paradigmflux]

Ricky I would appreciate if you return the NXTcashoperatingfund to me because I decided to give this 1M NXT to a common fund the early adopters/big stakeholders committee will form (official announcement in the following hours) so it can be handled by the community for various projects (including anonymity features) - better to do it more officially rather than James handling the whole chunk, I am sure he will agree..

EDIT: The community should be aware that a big part of the early adopters will ONLY fund from now on in this way - the committee is made exactly for this reason, transparency, fairness and optimal management of resources (both ours and the community's).

Of course, if some insidious large NXT holders wanted to ensure your scenario, all they would have to do is offer a matching donation of NXT to the mining outputs.

I think just a % above to ensure highest ROI would do the trick, and be sustainable for the longest period.  Then again, I might just be thinking this way because I'm already completely jealous of those of you who can mine in these NXT pools.

I dont like hearing about mining related to Nxt.But i just  consider it automatizing a way of people buying Nxt with their resources.We should think if Nxt mining should be encouraged. If yes.. this idea is quite similar of what nodecoins was supposed to do,but in a different way.It would be a special giveout of some Nxt,as imo we are still in the IPO, although people dont see it this way.

PROPOSAL TO STIMULATE NXT MINING POOLS

A fund is created,with a certain amount of Nxt.For example a fund commitee creates and manages a Nxt account xxxxxxxxxxx, with 500.000 Nxt(any number).Also anyone can support it by donating money to that account.

All those Nxt will be distributed to everyone who has mined in a certain period,from April 1st to April 30th for example, in proportion to how much they have mined.That would be done by sending the Nxt to the pool owners,who can pay it accordingly,as all the workers and how much they mined is public info.
If you mined 0,1% of the total Nxt mined ,you would get 0,1% of the added Nxt too.

This would increase the ROI for mining here,making these pools the most profitable(by far depending on how much is donated), and bringing a lot of people to Nxt> Lots of miners> more Nxt bought every day>buy pressure> price increases. It would also put Nxt in everyones mouth and bring hype.
I have no idea how much people can this bring,but if it did success in introducing Nxt to a lot of people,the increase in the price could be significant.
Some people may think its unfair to subsidize this,but it is a private project,and could be a nice way to let initial stakeholders give out some Nxt, that could be distributed to hundreds(i hope thousands) of persons.

For anyone who has been into poker,this would be like a Rake race.It brings players to a poker room,and make them play as much hands as they can competing between them,because the more you rake you generate,the bigger the prize you will get,although in this case the payout would be lineal.

If we can optimize how many Nxt to giveout,we would bring the most competitive miners in the world to Nxt.And this doesnt punish small miners in any way(their ROI is never reduced).And even if many of them sell their Nxt after, they could never sell more than what they have generated and has been bought by the pools,so it cant be EV- in the long term.

Ive created this thread to discuss.

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4487.0.html

If you sibsidize the pool to make it the most profitable you have to consider the likely scenario in which those droves of pump and dump selfish miners come by for the free lunch then just sell all the nxt to btc on their way out the door.

even if they wanted to dump it all, the pool would be able to buy most if it back.  I have been doing most of the NXT buys for the pool on BTER, that's why the volume is so up.  I am also integrating with cryptsy and Poloniex, just they sometimes have bigger delays in payouts.

[paradigmflux]

If you sibsidize the pool to make it the most profitable you have to consider the likely scenario in which those droves of pump and dump selfish miners come by for the free lunch then just sell all the nxt to btc on their way out the door.

Yeah, this is a good point. We don't want to create a fund of 500k nxt that is just going to end up dumped by miners with no loyalty to nxt. It seems like the mining scheme only works if miners hold the nxt. If nxt "mining' is more profitable than regular multipool mining, then we attract the vultures.

the only true vulture is the pool, and it vultures on altcoins.

the pool will always be buying more NXT than would be given out as bonus
so even if the miners all dumped their NXT for cheap, the next buy cycle from the pool would buy it all right away (unless they are listing the price as higher than the lowest price, in which case the pool is doing it's job and also increasing NXT volume which is also it's job).

[CIYAM]

Who can create these "accounts"? How are they created? How are they implemented in the Nxt core?

Anyone will be able to create an AT (its creation is just going to be a "new type" of Nxt transaction).

It is likely we'll make it optional for forgers to "do" AT (at least for parallel chains) but for nodes that do they will need to "validate" an AT creation tx and then "execute" the machine code (and save the state as another "injected" tx).

Execution of each AT will be part of "verification" by all AT processing nodes (so nodes can't *cheat* with the *state* as those blocks will end up being rejected).

[rdanneskjoldr]

Ricky I would appreciate if you return the NXTcashoperatingfund to me because I decided to give this 1M NXT to a common fund the early adopters/big stakeholders committee will form (official announcement in the following hours) so it can be handled by the community for various projects (including anonymity features) - better to do it more officially rather than James handling the whole chunk, I am sure he will agree..

EDIT: The community should be aware that a big part of the early adopters will ONLY fund from now on in this way - the committee is made exactly for this reason, transparency, fairness and optimal management of resources (both ours and the community's).

Of course, if some insidious large NXT holders wanted to ensure your scenario, all they would have to do is offer a matching donation of NXT to the mining outputs.

I think just a % above to ensure highest ROI would do the trick, and be sustainable for the longest period.  Then again, I might just be thinking this way because I'm already completely jealous of those of you who can mine in these NXT pools.

I dont like hearing about mining related to Nxt.But i just  consider it automatizing a way of people buying Nxt with their resources.We should think if Nxt mining should be encouraged. If yes.. this idea is quite similar of what nodecoins was supposed to do,but in a different way.It would be a special giveout of some Nxt,as imo we are still in the IPO, although people dont see it this way.

PROPOSAL TO STIMULATE NXT MINING POOLS

A fund is created,with a certain amount of Nxt.For example a fund commitee creates and manages a Nxt account xxxxxxxxxxx, with 500.000 Nxt(any number).Also anyone can support it by donating money to that account.

All those Nxt will be distributed to everyone who has mined in a certain period,from April 1st to April 30th for example, in proportion to how much they have mined.That would be done by sending the Nxt to the pool owners,who can pay it accordingly,as all the workers and how much they mined is public info.
If you mined 0,1% of the total Nxt mined ,you would get 0,1% of the added Nxt too.

This would increase the ROI for mining here,making these pools the most profitable(by far depending on how much is donated), and bringing a lot of people to Nxt> Lots of miners> more Nxt bought every day>buy pressure> price increases. It would also put Nxt in everyones mouth and bring hype.
I have no idea how much people can this bring,but if it did success in introducing Nxt to a lot of people,the increase in the price could be significant.
Some people may think its unfair to subsidize this,but it is a private project,and could be a nice way to let initial stakeholders give out some Nxt, that could be distributed to hundreds(i hope thousands) of persons.

For anyone who has been into poker,this would be like a Rake race.It brings players to a poker room,and make them play as much hands as they can competing between them,because the more you rake you generate,the bigger the prize you will get,although in this case the payout would be lineal.

If we can optimize how many Nxt to giveout,we would bring the most competitive miners in the world to Nxt.And this doesnt punish small miners in any way(their ROI is never reduced).And even if many of them sell their Nxt after, they could never sell more than what they have generated and has been bought by the pools,so it cant be EV- in the long term.

Ive created this thread to discuss.

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4487.0.html

If you sibsidize the pool to make it the most profitable you have to consider the likely scenario in which those droves of pump and dump selfish miners come by for the free lunch then just sell all the nxt to btc on their way out the door.

even if they wanted to dump it all, the pool would be able to buy most if it back.  I have been doing most of the NXT buys for the pool on BTER, that's why the volume is so up.  I am also integrating with cryptsy and Poloniex, just they sometimes have bigger delays in payouts.

I put some thoughts in my post about that.500k was to say any number,it could be whatever.It should be a % increase  of what we stimate could be mined.
I know a dump would happen,but that dump can never be bigger than the new Nxt bought,so this cant have negative expected value.And of all those new miners,some will keep mining there, and some will keep the coins. So the objective of this, letting a lot of people know about nxt and build their opinion,would be achieved.

[farl4web]

Bears holding beers saying cheers to Nxt

FIFY - great meme!

Hope the bears drinking beer helped us:

https://twitter.com/Nxtgids/status/447020783173648384

[mcjavar]

Ricky I would appreciate if you return the NXTcashoperatingfund to me because I decided to give this 1M NXT to a common fund the early adopters/big stakeholders committee will form (official announcement in the following hours) so it can be handled by the community for various projects (including anonymity features) - better to do it more officially rather than James handling the whole chunk, I am sure he will agree..

EDIT: The community should be aware that a big part of the early adopters will ONLY fund from now on in this way - the committee is made exactly for this reason, transparency, fairness and optimal management of resources (both ours and the community's).

Of course, if some insidious large NXT holders wanted to ensure your scenario, all they would have to do is offer a matching donation of NXT to the mining outputs.

I think just a % above to ensure highest ROI would do the trick, and be sustainable for the longest period.  Then again, I might just be thinking this way because I'm already completely jealous of those of you who can mine in these NXT pools.

I dont like hearing about mining related to Nxt.But i just  consider it automatizing a way of people buying Nxt with their resources.We should think if Nxt mining should be encouraged. If yes.. this idea is quite similar of what nodecoins was supposed to do,but in a different way.It would be a special giveout of some Nxt,as imo we are still in the IPO, although people dont see it this way.

PROPOSAL TO STIMULATE NXT MINING POOLS

A fund is created,with a certain amount of Nxt.For example a fund commitee creates and manages a Nxt account xxxxxxxxxxx, with 500.000 Nxt(any number).Also anyone can support it by donating money to that account.

All those Nxt will be distributed to everyone who has mined in a certain period,from April 1st to April 30th for example, in proportion to how much they have mined.That would be done by sending the Nxt to the pool owners,who can pay it accordingly,as all the workers and how much they mined is public info.
If you mined 0,1% of the total Nxt mined ,you would get 0,1% of the added Nxt too.

This would increase the ROI for mining here,making these pools the most profitable(by far depending on how much is donated), and bringing a lot of people to Nxt> Lots of miners> more Nxt bought every day>buy pressure> price increases. It would also put Nxt in everyones mouth and bring hype.
I have no idea how much people can this bring,but if it did success in introducing Nxt to a lot of people,the increase in the price could be significant.
Some people may think its unfair to subsidize this,but it is a private project,and could be a nice way to let initial stakeholders give out some Nxt, that could be distributed to hundreds(i hope thousands) of persons.

For anyone who has been into poker,this would be like a Rake race.It brings players to a poker room,and make them play as much hands as they can competing between them,because the more you rake you generate,the bigger the prize you will get,although in this case the payout would be lineal.

If we can optimize how many Nxt to giveout,we would bring the most competitive miners in the world to Nxt.And this doesnt punish small miners in any way(their ROI is never reduced).And even if many of them sell their Nxt after, they could never sell more than what they have generated and has been bought by the pools,so it cant be EV- in the long term.

Ive created this thread to discuss.

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4487.0.html

If you sibsidize the pool to make it the most profitable you have to consider the likely scenario in which those droves of pump and dump selfish miners come by for the free lunch then just sell all the nxt to btc on their way out the door.

even if they wanted to dump it all, the pool would be able to buy most if it back.  I have been doing most of the NXT buys for the pool on BTER, that's why the volume is so up.  I am also integrating with cryptsy and Poloniex, just they sometimes have bigger delays in payouts.

How much volume did you generate? How much are you buying up in a day?

[mthcl]

Version 0.3.1 of my article: http://www.docdroid.net/abp9/forging0-3-1.pdf.html

Added a new section about splitting of accounts. Conclusions:

- Under Exp-algorithm, the probability that an account with relative active balance b generates the next block is exactly b; if all relative balances are small,
then the U-algorithm essentially works the same way as the Exp-algorithm.

- In general, splitting has no effect on the (total) probability of block generation under Exp-algorithm, and this probability always decreases under U-algorithm. However, the difference is usually not very significant (even if the account is split into many small parts).

- Thus, neither algorithm encourages splitting (anyhow, there is some cost in maintaining many forging accounts, so, in principle, there is no reason to increase too much the number of them in the case of Exp-algorithm as well). The reader should be warned, however, that all the conclusions in this article are valid for mathematical models, and the real world can introduce some corrections.

- In particular, it should be observed that, if the attacker could harm the network by splitting his account into many small ones, then a very small gain that he achieves by not splitting would not prevent him from attacking the network. If this attacker's strategy presents any real danger, we may consider introducing
a lower limit for forging (e.g., only accounts with more than, say, 100 NXT are allowed to forge).

[bitcoinpaul]

Bears holding beers saying cheers to Nxt

FIFY - great meme!

Hope the bears drinking beer helped us:

https://twitter.com/Nxtgids/status/447020783173648384

Is it wise to use a Bear in the money world?

[paradigmflux]

oh wow, I just checked the BTER volume - the pools contribution was just a drop in a very large bucket.
But we're at 29 MH and growing, we've already doubled since yesterday and punkrock verified that the stats from yesterday made it more profitable than any of the other multipools (considerably)
I suspect as people are hearing about the pool, people might be buying in while it's cheap.

[bitcoinpaul]

Who can create these "accounts"? How are they created? How are they implemented in the Nxt core?

Anyone will be able to create an AT (its creation is just going to be a "new type" of Nxt transaction).

It is likely we'll make it optional for forgers to "do" AT (at least for parallel chains) but for nodes that do they will need to "validate" an AT creation tx and then "execute" the machine code (and save the state as another "injected" tx).

Execution of each AT will be part of "verification" by all AT processing nodes (so nodes can't *cheat* with the *state* as those blocks will end up being rejected).

How to change or delete an AT?

[CIYAM]

Version 0.3.1 of my article: http://www.docdroid.net/abp9/forging0-3-1.pdf.html

Nice work!

[farl4web]

Bears holding beers saying cheers to Nxt

FIFY - great meme!

Hope the bears drinking beer helped us:

https://twitter.com/Nxtgids/status/447020783173648384

Is it wise to use a Bear in the money world?

Dunno, but they are so cuddly, sweet…. and drunk. 

[L5Society]

even if they wanted to dump it all, the pool would be able to buy most if it back.  I have been doing most of the NXT buys for the pool on BTER, that's why the volume is so up.  I am also integrating with cryptsy and Poloniex, just they sometimes have bigger delays in payouts.

Assuming that your pool can absorb all of the selling pressure on nxt, this might work. You're creating selling pressure in other altcoins while marketing nxt to new people. What's your 24h buying volume?

[CIYAM]

How to change or delete an AT?

Basically AMs could be used in order to change an ATs behaviour (but you can't *change the code itself*).

No need to "delete" as once its balance is exhausted (by running) it can just be removed from the block chain (like old AMs).

[mthcl]

Version 0.3.1 of my article: http://www.docdroid.net/abp9/forging0-3-1.pdf.html

Nice work!

Thanks! There is even one theorem about Nxt now  

[farl4web]

Bears holding beers saying cheers to Nxt

FIFY - great meme!

Hope the bears drinking beer helped us:

https://twitter.com/Nxtgids/status/447020783173648384

Is it wise to use a Bear in the money world?

Ya. Should be bulls with beers!

Yes, you're right… cheers!

[S3MKi]

Version 0.3.1 of my article: http://www.docdroid.net/abp9/forging0-3-1.pdf.html

great!

[mczarnek]

Who is working on the multi-sig transactions?  Need to talk to him.

Thanks.

I work on multisig for Nxt.

Awesome, check your messages, I sent you a proposal that solves one of the problems with a huge bounty on it but requires multi-sig with more than 3 signers to work, and please get back to me regarding how doable that is.

I'd be happy to help if needed.

It's kind of a long message, I'd be happy to summarize or make a sketch that explains the idea or whatever if needed.

Also you can ignore the step where each forger gets the help of 2 other forgers.. doesn't matter if he gives you the wrong public key because he'll probably be trying to screw you later anyway.

I'd say require a 4 out of 8 or 5 out of 10 multi-sig to make it work.  Thanks.

[CIYAM]

Thanks! There is even one theorem abou Nxt now  

So I hope your new efforts are going to be rewarded (hint to whales) and that you will also consider modelling the BCNext proposed TF approach (with "penalties" which you can ask CfB about).

This sort of scientific work is very beneficial for the Nxt project IMO.

[paradigmflux]

If you sibsidize the pool to make it the most profitable you have to consider the likely scenario in which those droves of pump and dump selfish miners come by for the free lunch then just sell all the nxt to btc on their way out the door.

Yeah, this is a good point. We don't want to create a fund of 500k nxt that is just going to end up dumped by miners with no loyalty to nxt. It seems like the mining scheme only works if miners hold the nxt. If nxt "mining' is more profitable than regular multipool mining, then we attract the vultures.

the only true vulture is the pool, and it vultures on altcoins.

the pool will always be buying more NXT than would be given out as bonus
so even if the miners all dumped their NXT for cheap, the next buy cycle from the pool would buy it all right away (unless they are listing the price as higher than the lowest price, in which case the pool is doing it's job and also increasing NXT volume which is also it's job).

No. The mining pool is subsidised with a fund to make it "more profitable". Say the total subsidy fund is 500k nxt. Thats 500k nxt over what actually gets bought on exchange for the true operation of the pool. Once that 500k nxt is sucked dry all those miners will leave/sell their nxt to btc and the bid depth will be 500k nxt shallower/lower price.

This is not a make work program for the superficial sake of "creating volume". Or is it?

sorry, I wasn't thinking the same things you are.  I was hoping a third party would monitor the payouts and send each worker that gets paid out an additional 10% of their payout, for example.  I could export the payout info and send it via email or whatever in a spreadsheet to make it not too difficult.   Mind you, the miners on my pool were making the equivilent of 0.008 btc/mh/day yesterday and the pool has nearly tripled in size since yesterday, so i don't even know if any of this promotional stuff is going to be needed.