NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[brooklynbtc]

issuer should be able BUY their own shares of course, but at free market through AT


the more i think the more serious it could be to let the ISSUER control the transactions with any influence

[Anon136]

I imagine the AT for MSFT will be set up by the issuer? and will handle ALL the MSFT trades EVER? with 0%?

Now that is a far more interesting question - and yes I have been giving it some thought. If we are wanting to be able to really create a DAC then we are going to have to consider about exactly how we should treat its Assets.

The issue gets more complicated if you consider that there might be "rules" (such as for buy-backs) that means that an AT may have to "restrict" trade quantities. There could even be a requirement for "votes" by other shareholders.

if we are going to do real dac's than my contention would be that we probably need to get parallel chains sorted out first. these things would be real block hogs. no room for any significant number of them on any 1 chain.

[CIYAM]

Agreed that the creation of a DAC is not going to be anything as simple as creating a "lottery" or a "savings account" or "an escrow".

It will probably take several months of design and construction (no wonder Ethereum aren't *rushing things*).

[BrianNowhere]

So frustrating that some of these other guys cant see what an elegant solution this is to an age old problem.

Indeed - also practically speaking the "list of Assets" will end up being huge (so you are not likely to be searching for an Asset by scrolling through a list).

Its funny this argument along the lines of "what is joe sixpack going to do when he wants to buy microsoft stock, how is it going to be so easy for him that he doesnt even have to reference a simple website". Like there is some sort of built in assumption that people are supposed to be able to buy an asset with out doing ANY research on it first.

I think that is true when it comes to Stocks, if corporations buy into the idea that is. With cryptos, which I assume will also be traded via Nxt, you do get somewhat of a joe sixpack constituency who can regularly be found crying in forums about how they lost money because they kept their private keys in their hotmail account or whatever.

However, you will never be able to completely protect these people. Even if you have "trusted issuers" and companies promoting Nxt addresses and Asset ID's via their websites, they will still be susceptible to phishing scams.

There's always going to be an element of social darwinism taking place when it comes to this technology. As always, programmers should always be aiming to keep the IQ minimum to as close to a two digit number as possible.

[Jerical13]

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

USD is currently the world currency. Everyone know it. That's why people want to use it, even if it's "inferior".

NXT will be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem no matter what, because that's just logic. But we need to let people make their choice and don't enforce our currency.

If there is a currency that surpasses the capacity of the NXT currency that is allowed to trade in this manor, it would be the dominant currency of the network for the same reason there is being thoughts entertained about allowing such trades; and the growth of the capacity for the NXT currency would suffer. It would be a bad thing to handicap the NXT currency, and to let it suffer this loss of  growth capacity in order to undercut the competition to NXT.

People would have a choice. They could trade on another network, our not trade. The point of establishing NXT is to provide a decentralized platform for commerce. If you let Fiat currencies have more purchasing power on the NXT network than the actual NXT currency, then you concede the network to that currency. The point of NXT is to get away from Centralization. If people feel that trading in USD's is better than NXT currency, they already have outlets to do so.

If the NXT network is strong, and the currency develops confidence, then people will use the network. We can't just give up the network to outside currencies just to get activity on the network. Short term would be good, but in the long term it would be better to stand by the NXT currency. If people want to exchange USD's let them do it somewhere else; they have that choice already. It may take time to grow the capacity of NXT, but that is the only way that I see to keep the NXT network as the NXT network, other than increasing fees, which would also be bad. (IMO)

[brooklynbtc]

how do we take an existing AT, with shares sold and convert it to a DAC?

I guess a DAC has more voting control and so on, and the decentralized part could be a centralized decision, ie stakeholders in the company have a centralized vote to become DAC

[barbierir]

Then Microsoft (or whoever) could market themselves in Nxt by having one line blurb on their website that says "Add Microsoft to Nxt by trusting 723549872359875"

Exactly - also as I stated their website can make it very easy for you to put the "scary number" onto your clipboard.

+1

[CIYAM]

There's always going to be an element of social darwinism taking place when it comes to this technology. As always, programmers should always be aiming to keep the IQ minimum to as close to a two digit number as possible.

True - but what we are proposing is no more of an issue than people doing "the same check" for a Bitcoin address before sending off funds.

[CIYAM]

how do we take an existing AT, with shares sold and convert it to a DAC?

I guess a DAC has more voting control and so on, and the decentralized part could be a centralized decision, ie stakeholders in the company have a centralized vote to become DAC

I am thinking along the lines of there being perhaps "different ways of selling" Assets that were issued by an AT which would require all sales to be "approved by the AT itself".

This needs a lot more thought and I need to learn more about the way typical corporations function to even have a "half decent plan".

[brooklynbtc]

There's always going to be an element of social darwinism taking place when it comes to this technology. As always, programmers should always be aiming to keep the IQ minimum to as close to a two digit number as possible.

True - but what we are proposing is no more of an issue than people doing "the same check" for a Bitcoin address before sending off funds.

look what happened with the bankers and toxic mortgages in the US. Even when given a banker and a desk, and a flag on the wall, people make bad decisions when they are preyed upon.

this is not about joe 6pack. this is about business.

[brooklynbtc]

how do we take an existing AT, with shares sold and convert it to a DAC?

I guess a DAC has more voting control and so on, and the decentralized part could be a centralized decision, ie stakeholders in the company have a centralized vote to become DAC

I am thinking along the lines of there being perhaps "different ways of selling" Assets that were issued by an AT which would require all sales to be "approved by the AT itself".

This needs a lot more thought and I need to learn more about the way typical corporations function to even have a "half decent plan".

"approved" means controlled. means centralized.

[CIYAM]

"approved" means controlled. means centralized.

An AT doesn't *need* to be set up as a "controller" - that is simply one option (that might fit into the way current corporations function).

Understand I am not trying to limit the DAC concept to *one thing* but to allow various different types of ATs to be created to handle various different types of Assets.

[Anon136]

guys we fell behind doge coin again on http://cryptmarketcap.com/ this can not stand. i dont care if nxt ever goes more than a penny higher than dogecoin just for christ sake don't let it fall behind that damned doge again.

[Jerical13]

The market should decide for itself what is or isn't a good direction.

How do you propose that decision should be made?

Auction it?

Vote on it?

We've pretty much already come to the conclusion that "you can't change this" once you've launched it (in which case the "market decision" might be a Nxt "clone").

As long as the option to use third party services is an option, and as long as people have the right to choose to use them or to develop their own trust.

I just don't think that there should be protections that are "built in" to the network that would eliminate the potential for private enterprise and business. People should have both options. If you want to buy something on a basis of trust that you have determined yourself, you should be able to. If there is a business who wants to offer services for secure purchases, they should be able too.

There is no need for voting or auction,  or overcomplicating implementing  of the feature to protect buyers or sellers. I think that unique aliases and accounts being used when creating assets instead of unique asset names would help to do this by helping sellers build reputations; and just because the AE allows for anonymous sales doesn't mean that all sales need be anonymous. Sellers would have the option of determining how public and in the open they wish to make them selves, and could even provide buyers with there specific location and contact info, and make themselves and there transactions open and transparent. Good sellers will do this. Bad sellers won't.

[BrianNowhere]

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

USD is currently the world currency. Everyone know it. That's why people want to use it, even if it's "inferior".

NXT will be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem no matter what, because that's just logic. But we need to let people make their choice and don't enforce our currency.

I'd like to repeat an analogy I mentioned the other day in here which I liked, which is to compare the NXt economy to a Prison. Nxt AE is the Prison itself and within this prison the prisoners have all kinds of needs and they trade amongst themselves. A dirty prisoner will trade his cookies to a hungry prisoner for Soap. That prisoner might take half of those cookies and trade them for toothpaste. These trades require trust because during any of these trades one of the prisoners might pull out a shank and just take your stuff.

NXT the currency however is like buying Cigarettes from the Prison Commissary (In our Prison the Commissary only sells Cigarettes) . When you buy NXT you are getting it from the institution, so you don't have to worry about trust or getting shivved. NXT being a math based digital currency requires no trust at all. Commissary cigarette prices can still fluctuate on their own based on supply and demand and so it will be with NXT (the digital currency).

Once AT is implemented you'll also be able to buy Soap, Toothpaste, etc with a guard present so at some point NXT/Cigarettes will have to compete with everything else to remain as the reserve currency, but since NXT (Cigarettes) are so awesome (addictive) and has properties that make it very easy to trade (lightweight, comes in packs, small size) it has little to fear from other commodities that are not so easily traded.

it's not a perfect analogy I know, but I think it shows how Nxt should be like a little self contained economy and NXT the currency should have to compete for dominance within it but will likely become the reserve currency because it will be universally accepted.

[Jerical13]

On the asset name controversy, am I being dense? Wouldn't an asset from a given entity always be issued from a Unique Nxt address, therefore making it very easy to tell who is issuing that asset?

It seems like an easy matter to set up the AE to only show assets from Nxt Addresses you have indicated you trust and to only purchase assets from them and also to clearly be able to show who is issuing that asset.

If Microsoft owns Nxt address 3498343485498 then you should be able to make sure that any time you are buying MSFT that you
are only buying it from Nxt address 3498343485498

I'm not getting why this is such a controversy.

The controversy is in whether or not the listed asset names should be unique to one issuer, or if whoever issued an asset could call it what ever they want.

[Anon136]

guys we fell behind doge coin again on http://cryptmarketcap.com/ this can not stand. i dont care if nxt ever goes more than a penny higher than dogecoin just for christ sake don't let it fall behind that damned doge again.

I don't see a long-term future for Doge   

i wish i could be so confident. i dont buy any doges as a matter of principal but im afraid that thing may have a great deal more staying power than it deserves.

[jztxeno]

doge is losing value every week without going up, they are at 0 soon and will stay there.

[CIYAM]

The controversy is in whether or not the listed asset names should be unique to one issuer, or if whoever issued an asset could call it what ever they want.

And the controversy has been answered in that it is no different to a Bitcoin address.

Do you just send money to 1MSFT first bits?

Of course not - you'd do your "due diligence" by going to a company's "official website" (in HTTPS) and find where they have the Bitcoin address for you to "copy and paste".

If you guys think it is a good idea that we should spend days and days discussing everything like this in circles then fine - but please understand that the "real work" that needs to be done (which depends upon things like this) just gets *delayed* and *delayed* (probably *exactly* what Ethereum and others would be *very keen* to see happening).

[Sebastien256]

doge is losing value every week without going up, they are at 0 soon and will stay there.

yep eventually