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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755833 times)
Anon136
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March 20, 2014, 02:47:34 AM
 #46261

Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.

another valid example. its the same thing basically. i dont know if this is enough of a legal shield to keep me in business, but IF they decide that what im doing is illegal, its probably enough of a shield to grant me a cease and desist warning rather than a black bag in the middle of the night.

Man I fear the black bag..

But that said, What is the precedent for issuing private label bullion? I know all the other companies that do are in effect private labels, but what happens when someone wants to sell some Anon136 10oz bars to a dealer, or even a pawn shop?

Are they going to look at it as bullion? or bulk silver? There is a price difference right?



If all goes well than they will be a very high quality product. perhaps they may not be accepted as coming from a legit dealer immediately but hopefully it wont take too long before my brand builds up reputation.

really though if you want to turn them into cash than the best way would be to send them to me in exchange for claim checks, sell the claim checks on the asset exchange and then cash the nxt out at a USD gateway.

Duh. You're so right, Obviously the strongest market is the already established one.

I for one would hope and support your bullion becoming accepted and legit. Sellers would always have to remember that selling to the first bidder in a time of need will almost always get you lesser value, and pawn shop buyers are playing this arbitrage game.



wouldnt it be cool to walk into a pawn shop and see one of my own bars though!

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Anon136
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March 20, 2014, 02:49:28 AM
 #46262

people who are interested in my project please consider leaving a comment in my updates thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=455861 so that it will pop up in your replies to posts section when ever i give updates.

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March 20, 2014, 02:50:46 AM
 #46263

there might also be the no one knows game of selling to a Pawn shop if they just "looked right"

They could just say, oh 10oz silver, yeah sure our spot price is X, here you go...

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March 20, 2014, 02:52:09 AM
 #46264

this can be mined now with scrypt gpus? What? How did this happen, and what kind of returns is this seeing?

BTC: 1ESZr887vTZqYtDuwwspn1jBaoRU9jMcv1
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March 20, 2014, 02:55:06 AM
 #46265

this can be mined now with scrypt gpus? What? How did this happen, and what kind of returns is this seeing?

please take a look at:
https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4399.0.html

two pools available:

http://hashrate.org/
http://www.p00l.org/

both pool are in beta phase.

EDIT: nxt pool mine sh*t coin and automatically exchange them for nxt, then the pool pay you with nxt.

Nxt official forum at: https://nxtforum.org/
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March 20, 2014, 02:56:57 AM
 #46266

there might also be the no one knows game of selling to a Pawn shop if they just "looked right"

They could just say, oh 10oz silver, yeah sure our spot price is X, here you go...


yep i think thats probably right. my method is experimental. according to new liberty im venturing into completely uncharted territory. however if it works out the way we hope than it will be a very professional looking product. its not going to look at all like it came out of some guys garage (even though it did) Grin

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March 20, 2014, 03:08:20 AM
 #46267

Anon136,
This operation is the oldest running in Washington State, if I am not mistaken. They do custom jobs.

Northwest Territorial Mint.
http://www.nwtmint.com/
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March 20, 2014, 03:10:07 AM
 #46268

I'm still confused at the differing collectible prices in buying bullion. I mean, they are assayed at ounces for their market price, but then they vary in value up to almost 100% in the case of silver coins.

I guess there is the numismatic value in the case of Govt issued coins, and that must carry over to recognized "brands", offering quality, security, and beauty.

I assume that AnonBullion will be sold at a few points over spot, and trade at whatever it can be carried. The rareness will make it valuable in some circles.

Do you have any plans to issue numbered certificates with them? this could be a real plus for the value.

All this said, do you have a pre sale list? I'd like to get on it Wink


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March 20, 2014, 03:10:15 AM
 #46269

Anon136,
This operation is the oldest running in Washington State, if I am not mistaken. They do custom jobs.

Northwest Territorial Mint.
http://www.nwtmint.com/

if my experiment works than my prices will blow them out of the water. they will not be able to compete Grin. if it doesn't than yea contingency plan mb.

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March 20, 2014, 03:14:35 AM
 #46270

I'm still confused at the differing collectible prices in buying bullion. I mean, they are assayed at ounces for their market price, but then they vary in value up to almost 100% in the case of silver coins.

I guess there is the numismatic value in the case of Govt issued coins, and that must carry over to recognized "brands", offering quality, security, and beauty.

I assume that AnonBullion will be sold at a few points over spot, and trade at whatever it can be carried. The rareness will make it valuable in some circles.

Do you have any plans to issue numbered certificates with them? this could be a real plus for the value.

All this said, do you have a pre sale list? I'd like to get on it Wink



when i get around to advanced security i have some ideas. i want to put something like a "fingerprint" on the reverse of the bar. it will be very lightly engraved completely random pattern of intersecting ridges and valies + reference markers. a person wishing to authenticate the bar will use the same technique as finerprint analyses. you will pull up a reference photo from the internet. pick a random point on the bar and on the picture, and take note of the pattern formed by the intersections of ridges. then compare the reference photo to the bar. the engraving will be light enough that anyone wishing to take a cast of it will not be able to copy the pattern and it would not be economical to replicate it any other way.

*edit* remember inorder to protect against fraud you dont have to make it imposable, you only have to make sure that you are not the lowest hanging fruit because fraudsters will always go after the lowest hanging fruit first.

as far as numbered certificates go. if i do something like that then they will be stored on the blockchain and a cautious buyer will refuse to purchase any bar that the seller can not also provide a certificate on the blockchain for. upon the transaction the seller will transfer the certificate from his account to the account of the buyer over the blockchain. this however does not protect the buyer from making a copy of the bar with a copper core and then transferring the fake bar with the certificate while keeping the real bar with no certificate for himself.

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March 20, 2014, 03:38:03 AM
 #46271

so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.

the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.

one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.

tell me what you guys think. ill post this in my silver bullion thread also so if you are seeing this message any later than say a half hour after it was posted than it will probably be better to reply to it there.

You are right about the fact that silver and other forms of worth are over regulated.

I hope your plan works out for you; as far as legality , I don't know..... I would keep very accurate and thorough records for sure...... and maybe stop using the laundry analogy Cheesy
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March 20, 2014, 03:39:33 AM
 #46272

so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.

the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.

one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.

tell me what you guys think. ill post this in my silver bullion thread also so if you are seeing this message any later than say a half hour after it was posted than it will probably be better to reply to it there.
and maybe stop using the laundry analogy Cheesy

rofl!

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March 20, 2014, 03:44:41 AM
 #46273

Ive posted a couple times already about every 0.8.x release I try, that a few times a day it just runs off on its own fork and generates every block itself.  It didnt do this on 0.7.x train.  Any ideas on how to debug?  I enabled debug log but not much shows up
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March 20, 2014, 03:55:41 AM
 #46274

Well, let me provide an update after eight hours of straight programming.

Here is essentially what I will be running with for the decentralized server addition.

In this example Peer1 and Peer2 are not hallmarked, which is why they are using a hallmarked server as a common networking point. The purpose of this is to allow the two "peers" to send serialized objects to each other without taking up a large amount of bandwidth on the NXT network.

Here is what a serverRequest object looks like.
Code:
class serverRequest implements Serializable {  

private  int wantedPeer;
private  String sharedNode;
private  java.util.Date date = new java.util.Date();
private  long time;
private  int sender;
private byte[] signature;


public  serverRequest(int receiver, int sender, String sharedNode){
this.sharedNode = sharedNode;
this.account = sender;
this.wantedPeer = receiver;
this.time = date.getTime();

long packetLong = Long.valueOf(sharedNode) + account + time + wantedPeer;
byte[] packetByte = ByteBuffer.allocate(8).putLong(packetLong).array();
this.signature = Crypto.sign(packetByte, secretPhrase);
}

}

Establish a shared hallmarked server connection.
  • Peer1 chooses a  hallmarkedServer to share a connection with Peer2
  • Peer1 sends the serverRequest object to all hallmarkedServer(s) in peerList.
  • hallmarkedServer(s) check their peerList to see if they are connected to Peer2
  • if they are not the hallmarkedServer(s) broadcast the signed request to all the hallmarkedServer(s) they are connected to.
  • if they are connected to Peer2 they send the serverRequest to Peer2
  • Peer2 connects to IP (sharedNode) in request packet
  • Peer2 sends a signed timestamp + sharedServer packet to the shared server (essentially just verifying the serverRequest)
  • the shared server will now relay all serialized objects sent from Peer1 to Peer2 (on port 6666) and vice-versa.
Countermeasure to "passive" denial of service
   Every minute a object with the amount of sent data during the last minute is sent to hServer
   hServer sends this to the other Peer
   If this packet is not received by the other peer the shared hServer is forgotten and a new sharedServer is found

Very cool!

Question (since this isn't all of the code obviously): Is this system using shared keys between the transmitter and receiver? That way, even if the hallmarked node is malicious, it can't read the file unless it knows either Peer1 or Peer2's private key.

Another question: What incentive does this hallmarked node receive by providing it's bandwidth to transfer files?

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March 20, 2014, 03:56:39 AM
 #46275

Result: U sold 50k NXT for 0.01 BTC. Smiley

Crazy!    Shocked     ...thnx brother...

Hey, just don't send NAS when he sends u 0.01 BTC.  Cheesy
good idea.
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March 20, 2014, 04:20:03 AM
 #46276

Very cool!

Question (since this isn't all of the code obviously): Is this system using shared keys between the transmitter and receiver? That way, even if the hallmarked node is malicious, it can't read the file unless it knows either Peer1 or Peer2's private key.

Another question: What incentive does this hallmarked node receive by providing it's bandwidth to transfer files?

Thanks!

Yes, either the entire object can be encrypted and packed into another object or the individual variables of an object can be packed inside of an object and then sent.

I was thinking something like this...
Code:
byte[] data = SerializationUtils.serialize(dataPacket);
byte[] encryptedObject = Crypto.xorEncrypt(data, position, length, privateKey, publicKey);

Their incentive could be from fees, I can probably hack it in there somewhere.
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March 20, 2014, 04:29:06 AM
 #46277

Very cool!

Question (since this isn't all of the code obviously): Is this system using shared keys between the transmitter and receiver? That way, even if the hallmarked node is malicious, it can't read the file unless it knows either Peer1 or Peer2's private key.

Another question: What incentive does this hallmarked node receive by providing it's bandwidth to transfer files?

Thanks!

Yes, either the entire object can be encrypted and packed into another object or the individual variables of an object can be packed inside of an object and then sent.

I was thinking something like this...
Code:
byte[] data = SerializationUtils.serialize(dataPacket);
byte[] encryptedObject = Crypto.xorEncrypt(data, position, length, privateKey, publicKey);

Their incentive could be from fees, I can probably hack it in there somewhere.

+1. Good stuff!
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March 20, 2014, 04:32:31 AM
 #46278

Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.
I think the reason it is not classified as a security is that the pawn shop/dry cleaners dont have a fiduciary duty to redeem. For instance, if their store burns down with your clothes, I doubt you can go to the dry cleaners afterwards for a refund. So, the claim checks are not secured by anything other than the business goodwill of the shop. Kind of like an unsecured loan.

Generally speaking securities tend to be fungible items, and usually pawn shop/dry cleaner claim checks are not for fungible items. The fact that you are using the claim check model for presumably fungible silver items is probably not going to make it a security, but maybe they will change the law because of you Smiley

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March 20, 2014, 04:41:31 AM
 #46279

Ive not noticed anyone say they were sick of your posts.  I read your writing and I 100% agree with it being ridiculous to try to adjust fees in client as NXT fluctuates in its value per fiat, which is why I've been saying we should determine how to untie fees from fiat.  But I must question your understanding of a blockchain though, if you are suggesting that we make it free for people to issue bid/ask orders on the AE.  You must remember that one of the key functions of fees are spam control.  Also, you are not considering the full functionality of AE - you seem to think its only a currency exchange market when really its an 'asset' market. Its not like there will be assets created on any of the centralized exchanges that people can operate on.  And later when/if the AT currency exchange portion comes, fees on it are just going to have to be implemented for orders.

The bottom line is that AE is not built for HFC, and the con to a decentralized exchange is fees per order instead of fees per % of successful trade.  Of course the reverse holds for centralized exchanges.  Different use - different purpose.

I still say that we should implement fees as low as possible to encourage utility.  With high usage that low fees can bring, forgers will make up the difference and it will be win/win for all involved.

I really don't want to have to bring up that "ecosystem whose name rhymes with that little pink tip located in the center of an areola" again, but that ecosystem just also happens to have the the same spam control issues as Nxt and handles it by charging mere fractions of a penny for the fee. I do agree that HFT is not a great thing, but you're cutting off a lot of good flesh by trying to gouge the cancer this way.

The things I'm mentioning may be very well impossible considering the Nxt infrastructure as written by Mr. Next. That's for bigger brains than me to say. For whatever reason they aren't a problem for that system that's named after a famous Grateful Dead song that played at the end of Mask when Rocky Dennis passed away).

If users don't like it, no one is going to care about these excuses as to why you couldn't do it. They will just go away.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 20, 2014, 04:44:26 AM
 #46280

Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.
I think the reason it is not classified as a security is that the pawn shop/dry cleaners dont have a fiduciary duty to redeem. For instance, if their store burns down with your clothes, I doubt you can go to the dry cleaners afterwards for a refund. So, the claim checks are not secured by anything other than the business goodwill of the shop. Kind of like an unsecured loan.

Generally speaking securities tend to be fungible items, and usually pawn shop/dry cleaner claim checks are not for fungible items. The fact that you are using the claim check model for presumably fungible silver items is probably not going to make it a security, but maybe they will change the law because of you Smiley

James

oh well if thats the case than its easy. i wont promise to redeem anything. ill reserve the express right no not redeem anything you send me at any time for any reason. infact i wont even say the purpose of the token is to be redeemed for silver, if you do happen to send one to me, and it does happen to result in a silver bar being delivered to your door than that's pure happenstance. you guys can just decide for yourself whether you believe that sending me one of these tokens will happen to result in a silver bar arriving at your door.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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