NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[IveBeenBit]

As long as I am able to do it, I dont really care the exact method.
I didnt realize AT would be able to do asset operations, all I saw was send money
will also be able to write AM?

Yes - my use cases already include AMs and it should be straight forward for an AT to deal with Assets.

Yeeeeeah, boy! There's more than one way to skin a cat.

James, your vision is awesome. I know you're working on a ton of Nxt enhancements and I hope you're not overextended. There's no need to play the martyr, though IMO. Part of being a visionary is you get people sniping at you from the sidelines. It happens to everyone. Hell, how many people were calling Satoshi Nakamoto a ponzi operator as recently as 6 months ago?

Listen to Adam B. Levine's comments from the most recent episode of Let's Talk Bitcoin. Listen between 12:12 - 13:30 he says, "Nxt looks like Bitcoin will look like in 5 years, only it's here today and you can see it!"

Adam gets the picture, and it's because of the work that people like you and Ian and Jean Luc and CfB and all you other mofos are doing.

Remember: There's no crying in NXT!

[jl777]

Denominating assets in something other than NXT would require trusted issuer of some other asset that could be used for settling...?

 

Yes, instead of only the one using NXT trusting the asset seller, both assetA seller and assetB seller would need to trust the respective issuers of assetA and assetB. In some ways it is more symmetric, in other ways it requires double the trusting.

I do not expect it to be a frequent combination, it is just required for some speciality markets like oil/gold

[alxx77]

So, simply said, all trading in AE is ALLWAYS in NXT; if you trade asset <-> asset you are actually settling off-AE, that is you must trust someone else than NXT crypto

[CIYAM]

In regards to the "limit" of Asset quantity I think we could consider making it much bigger than 1B.

Having "fractional" amounts is just not going to make sense in general but at the "client side" you could decide to show a "decimal" point somewhere if you wanted to.

[jl777]

James, please listen to windjc. Just do your 'thing' and focus on finishing your coding work. You have oodles of support in the NXT community, and I for one get freaked out when you start talking about throwing in the towel. There are plenty of key people in the NXT community that we can't afford to lose, and you're definitely one of them. You'll never please everyone, so stay out of this thread as much as possible, and concentrate on pleasing yourself. As you say, you have the perfect skill-set for NXT - code, tech marketing, & finance.

You don't have to justify what you're doing!

Now, go and have a few beers.

The second one tonight offering alchohol. Maybe there is something to that. Maybe I should start drinking!
Ive just had a really rough week
Maybe I should just unplug for a week, finish the gateway and then do the jean-luc release note thing!
I will just design things to work even if only 10% of NXT'ers participate. Yes, I think that is a good plan. Not so sure about the drinking thing

James

[CIYAM]

So, simply said, all trading in AE is ALLWAYS in NXT; if you trade asset <-> asset you are actually settling off-AE

Yes - although with an appropriate AT set up for it the experience would actually be that you send Assets to the AT and then it sends you back the Asset being traded (so you send say Microsoft and get back Google).

Part of AT creation would include providing the appropriate "ratio" of such cross-trades as well as "limits".

[jl777]

In regards to the "limit" of Asset quantity I think we could consider making it much bigger than 1B.

Having "fractional" amounts is just not going to make sense in general but at the "client side" you could decide to show a "decimal" point somewhere if you wanted to.

BTC asset definitely needs fractions, I cant imagine limiting AE trading of BTC to full BTC. Between the current 1 billion limit and no fractional values, I am having to create milliBTC and microBTC assets. A single transfer of 1.234567 BTC would create 1 BTC asset, 234 milliBTC and 567 microBTC assets.

Not exactly the gleaming example of expected behavior.

With DOGE being worth so little and BTC so much, that is a large dynamic range that needs to be covered for the use cases

[MadCow]

The problem is that if the community rejects what I am doing, then some parts of what I am doing wont work. For example, I think there is a way to create a NXT network health indicator. nodeminer already is gathering most of the raw data that is needed.

....

I want a poll, but not sure how to set one up.

James

James, it sounds like you need to convince Jean-Luc and CfB of your plan. Those guys don't operate through this thread in a big way, so why not go straight to them and see what they say? If they agree cool! If they are unsure then maybe a vote. Either way, try and avoid the need to tackle every counter argument against your ideas here on your own. There is an element of 'politics' going on, but my feeling is most agree with your mission statement - "To make NXT the platform upon which all of crypto goes mainstream"

[L5Society]

Everyone-

The issue that James brings up is REALLY IMPORTANT. If you are skimming through this part of the thread and you quickly decide that *duh* everything on AE should be denominated in nxt because nxt rules, THEN YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.

Sorry for the all caps alarm bells, but this is a really complicated issue. If you do some research into the "petrodollar system" you will find a real world example of the problem that James brings up. Forcing the world to buy oil in USD has contributed to the USD's current status as the world's reserve currency. It has benefited the US government by increasing the value of USD (increasing worldwide demand for the dollar). However, now the US government has to make sure that oil producing countries only accept USD for their oil, or else the value of the USD will plummet and cause economic havoc for the US and the world. This is one reason that the US government is so friendly to the Saudis. This is also a reason that smart people are really worried about deteriorating relations between the US and Russia. The petrodollar system is a house of cards.

By analogy, only allowing trades in the AE to be denominated in nxt will have similar effects. If we succeed in making everyone use it, then sure, nxt prices will fly to the moon. However, the petrodollar system is highly unstable, and requires some serious political maneuvering to keep it running. It also required the most powerful country in the history of the world (debatable, I know) to get started. Lets be real here. We are a very small, niche community. I don't know if we could make AE successful with only nxt-denominated trades, but I do know that we would be making things much much more difficult for ourselves.

I also believe that such a system is inherently unstable. If we try to force people to use one currency, either by design of the nxt platform, or by dishonest marketing, we are ultimately doing more harm than good. We need to deliver unique, useful, and price-competitive services as a network. If our network is better than the alternatives, and if we market ourselves effectively, then we should see mass adoption of the nxt network and our personal wealth will increase. There is no easy shortcut.

We don't need to be the reserve currency of the internet to be ubiquitous and successful and richer than we are now. Please, please spend some more time thinking about the consequences of this decision.

[MadCow]

James, please listen to windjc. Just do your 'thing' and focus on finishing your coding work. You have oodles of support in the NXT community, and I for one get freaked out when you start talking about throwing in the towel. There are plenty of key people in the NXT community that we can't afford to lose, and you're definitely one of them. You'll never please everyone, so stay out of this thread as much as possible, and concentrate on pleasing yourself. As you say, you have the perfect skill-set for NXT - code, tech marketing, & finance.

You don't have to justify what you're doing!

Now, go and have a few beers.

The second one tonight offering alchohol. Maybe there is something to that. Maybe I should start drinking!
Ive just had a really rough week
Maybe I should just unplug for a week, finish the gateway and then do the jean-luc release note thing!
I will just design things to work even if only 10% of NXT'ers participate. Yes, I think that is a good plan. Not so sure about the drinking thing

James

Sounds like a good option (doing the jean-luc thing). As for the drinking, if you've made it this far in life without booze DON'T START NOW Whatever you like to do to unwind - do it tonight, and have a dble dose!!

[CIYAM]

I am having to create milliBTC and microBTC assets. A single transfer of 1.234567 BTC would create 1 BTC asset, 234 milliBTC and 567 microBTC assets.

Sure - display issues though are easily enough handled by clients.

I think we should consider raising the upper limit so that your problem will be easily solved via UI - technically there is no reason that the upper limit can't be that of a 64 bit integer (keeping in mind that Java doesn't do *unsigned*).

[MadCow]

Everyone-

The issue that James brings up is REALLY IMPORTANT. If you are skimming through this part of the thread and you quickly decide that *duh* everything on AE should be denominated in nxt because nxt rules, THEN YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.

Sorry for the all caps alarm bells, but this is a really complicated issue. If you do some research into the "petrodollar system" you will find a real world example of the problem that James brings up. Forcing the world to buy oil in USD has contributed to the USD's current status as the world's reserve currency. It has benefited the US government by increasing the value of USD (increasing worldwide demand for the dollar). However, now the US government has to make sure that oil producing countries only accept USD for their oil, or else the value of the USD will plummet and cause economic havoc for the US and the world. This is one reason that the US government is so friendly to the Saudis. This is also a reason that smart people are really worried about deteriorating relations between the US and Russia. The petrodollar system is a house of cards.

By analogy, only allowing trades in the AE to be denominated in nxt will have similar effects. If we succeed in making everyone use it, then sure, nxt prices will fly to the moon. However, the petrodollar system is highly unstable, and requires some serious political maneuvering to keep it running. It also required the most powerful country in the history of the world (debatable, I know) to get started. Lets be real here. We are a very small, niche community. I don't know if we could make AE successful with only nxt-denominated trades, but I do know that we would be making things much much more difficult for ourselves.

I also believe that such a system is inherently unstable. If we try to force people to use one currency, either by design of the nxt platform, or by dishonest marketing, we are ultimately doing more harm than good. We need to deliver unique, useful, and price-competitive services as a network. If our network is better than the alternatives, and if we market ourselves effectively, then we should see mass adoption of the nxt network and our personal wealth will increase. There is no easy shortcut.

We don't need to be the reserve currency of the internet to be ubiquitous and successful and richer than we are now. Please, please spend some more time thinking about the consequences of this decision.

Good explanation, thanks!

[jl777]

As long as I am able to do it, I dont really care the exact method.
I didnt realize AT would be able to do asset operations, all I saw was send money
will also be able to write AM?

Yes - my use cases already include AMs and it should be straight forward for an AT to deal with Assets.

Yeeeeeah, boy! There's more than one way to skin a cat.

James, your vision is awesome. I know you're working on a ton of Nxt enhancements and I hope you're not overextended. There's no need to play the martyr, though IMO. Part of being a visionary is you get people sniping at you from the sidelines. It happens to everyone. Hell, how many people were calling Satoshi Nakamoto a ponzi operator as recently as 6 months ago?

Listen to Adam B. Levine's comments from the most recent episode of Let's Talk Bitcoin. Listen between 12:12 - 13:30 he says, "Nxt looks like Bitcoin will look like in 5 years, only it's here today and you can see it!"

Adam gets the picture, and it's because of the work that people like you and Ian and Jean Luc and CfB and all you other mofos are doing.

Remember: There's no crying in NXT!

Yes, there are 43 ways to skin a cat.

Actually the more ideas I have, the more ideas I get as they tend to feed off of each other. At some point, I get an "Aha!" moment and what used to be kind of fuzzy becomes clear and then I just code it. If I only had one project then I would have a hard time staying focused on it and probably would start drinking

Things percolate, a proof of concept comes out, this helps the percolation process, another proof of concept comes out, more subconscious stuff, improvements, beta version, new idea, etc. etc.

Its kind of unpredictable what I end up working on any given day and maybe that confuses or frightens people but I am just telling it like it is. The net effect is that (without distractions) I am usually able to be quite productive day after day as all the time consuming definition of problem, designing solution, etc. is done in parallel and each day I code what is easiest to code, with rare exceptions. I doubt there is even a name for my work process, maybe there is though.

I do get mood swings, especially after working for 24 hours straight and finding some disturbing posts. If I start reading the forum before I start coding, I might never start coding that day. If I wait until the end of the day, it might affect me too much.

More and more I am leaning toward less openness and just loosely following this thread. Is there a way to setup a mailing list that sends out BCT PM's? Maybe I could stay in touch with the people interested in what I am doing semi-privately.

Maybe people need to realize that AT is coming. That means NXT will have Turing machine capability. That means nobody can stop me from doing whatever I come up with. I will do what I can to turn NXT into a platform.

James

[Passion_ltc]

Just a few more days until I come back. Is there anyone willing to pay the money for NXT.org?


I canceled 7 domains regarding the Nxt-Ecosystem. After I come back I will concentrate on quality work. Because this is what Nxt needs right now. So please respond to the question above.

Also I want to redirect NXTarea.com to http://mynxt.org/, Mario is that okay for you? After a few months I would also cancel this domain then, at this point the users should know that mynxt.org is the new landing page.



wesleyh, I'm not following everything right now. But you mentioned something like client-side-verification at http://nxtra.org/nxt-client-trustless/ . Is that also possible for tipNXT.com (not working right now, because I don't have a server for the client)?


So that someone can type in the wallet password to send the money, but it won't get send to the server. Sure there need to be HTTPS then. But will this makes tipNXT 100% secure?


What if someone hack the server and change the code. Is it possible to create a hash or checksum (with php and crojobs!) of the critical .php files and upload them somewhere on an external site?

[jl777]

I am having to create milliBTC and microBTC assets. A single transfer of 1.234567 BTC would create 1 BTC asset, 234 milliBTC and 567 microBTC assets.

Sure - display issues though are easily enough handled by clients.

I think we should consider raising the upper limit so that your problem will be easily solved via UI - technically there is no reason that the upper limit can't be that of a 64 bit integer (keeping in mind that Java doesn't do *unsigned*).

I had assumed the 1 billion limit was there for some actual reason. 63 bits unsigned is PLENTY of dynamic range for assets!

[jl777]

http://www.coindesk.com/scrypt-asic-race-intensifies-knc-scores-2m-preorders/

About 100mh scrypt asics. Interesting excerpt from the bottom of the article:

One Alpha Viper running at 90MH/s is roughly the equivalent of a hundred Radeon R9 290X cards running on reference clocks. The Titan is even faster, it is as fast as a hundred overclocked Radeon R9 290X cards. Now imagine what a few batches from both companies could do.

This could have massive implications, as thousands of GPU miners would be rendered obsolete practically overnight and prices will be impacted, too. On the other hand, it might be good news for gamers, as they will probably be able to pick up second-hand AMD Tahiti- and Hawaii-based graphics cards on the cheap as soon as the new ASIC rigs become operational.

So it seems the masses of GPU miners will now be pushed out of scrypt. They're going to be antsy. That doesn't leave many options. Mine at a loss or sell their GPU's (or rediscover their love for gaming). They could take the money from selling their GPU'S and put it in Nxt. Take a fraction of it and buy a dedicated node. Maybe this is a demographic to keep our eyes on.

used GPUS not worth so much
most games cant use more than 3 GPUs to any real benefit
I think NXT mining pools just found a lot of eager miners!

[BrianNowhere]

I feel that NXT as a community is at a decision point. Do we want to wage war against bitcoin for supremacy in payments and become the crypto version of paypal or do we want to become a platform that will enable transformation of the world to an economy that is significantly crypto based.
James

The answer should be both.

[CIYAM]

Maybe people need to realize that AT is coming. That means NXT will have Turing machine capability. That means nobody can stop me from doing whatever I come up with. I will do what I can to turn NXT into a platform.

Indeed the things that will be possible once we have AT in place are rather mind blowing.

[jl777]

The problem is that if the community rejects what I am doing, then some parts of what I am doing wont work. For example, I think there is a way to create a NXT network health indicator. nodeminer already is gathering most of the raw data that is needed.

....

I want a poll, but not sure how to set one up.

James

James, it sounds like you need to convince Jean-Luc and CfB of your plan. Those guys don't operate through this thread in a big way, so why not go straight to them and see what they say? If they agree cool! If they are unsure then maybe a vote. Either way, try and avoid the need to tackle every counter argument against your ideas here on your own. There is an element of 'politics' going on, but my feeling is most agree with your mission statement - "To make NXT the platform upon which all of crypto goes mainstream"

Actually, now that AT will support AM and Asset operations, I can do everything on top of NXT core myself as long as 10% of NXTers participate.

Nobody can stop me now

mwahahahaha!

did I do that right?

NXT platform is coming. It cannot be stopped. Just gotta prepare for it.

James

[jl777]

I feel that NXT as a community is at a decision point. Do we want to wage war against bitcoin for supremacy in payments and become the crypto version of paypal or do we want to become a platform that will enable transformation of the world to an economy that is significantly crypto based.
James

The answer should be both.

OK, you go take on the bitcoin guys. Let me know how it works out. I'm off doing the platform thing

Bye for now, back in a week (give or take). Maybe I will check in, maybe I wont.

Gnite