NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[wesleyh]

Anyone know any non-testnet nodes with API available and ajax CORS enabled? (except nxtcrypto.org)

[igysa]

What is the best CPU miner for AMD 64-bit ? hashrate.org CPU pool mining..

[Jerical13]

The question is do we want everything in AE to be traded via NXT.
If the market really wants this, there will be AssetA <-> AssetB direct trading.

I see no reason to force NXT as intermediate store when trading AssetA to AssetB.  NXT will be used to pay transaction (bid/ask) fees.

Furthermore, we should not let any fears of devaluing NXT prevent many kinds of uses of the NXT blockchain.  NXT will always be needed to create an entry into the public ledger as a transaction fee, and should gain in value as more uses are created.  (And IMHO, fees should be kept exceptionally low to encourage widespread adoption and use -- money flows to efficiency).

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?
c) $1 billion USD
Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

The asset issuer either has the reputation and means to satisfy withdrawals to real USD via gateway(s), or it doesn't.  Once it doesn't, then those assets become worthless and trade for pennies on the dollar -- Simply issuing 1 Billion 'USD' assets does not make it worth $1 Billion.

I am assuming the asset issuer merits trust, eg. large international bank. Let us assume there is an automated gateway so you can always safely redeem your USD assets. [ok nothing is "safe", this is a thought experiment to evaluate denominating things in AE in USD]

Do you see the problem, actually impossibility of anybody depositing $1 billion into NXT AE if all AE transactions are denominated in NXT? Maybe there is a way to break transactions up into itty bitty pieces and use up all of the NXT available in the liquid form, but not only will that create extreme volatility for the hypothetical large USD transaction, why would anybody with a $1 billion USD even attempt such insanity. So not impossible, but highly improbable

Usually people who control $1 Billion+ dont do stupid things. Putting in 30 times the market cap into a trading platform that limits trading to whatever NXT is available from the market cap (5%?) would qualify as idiotic. Anybody that does that will instantly be fired, or no longer be a billionaire.

This is why we MUST allow denominating AE trades in any other asset. USD, BTC, EUR, JPY, GLD, WTI, BCO, etc.

Does anybody really think that allowing trades to be denominated in USD (or BTC or ...) will do anything other than help NXT? It wont affect USD to any noticeable degree.

James

P.S. If we end up helping BTC by .01% is that really such a bad thing? After all, how BTC goes, all crypto goes at least for the near future. Once we have billions of dollars of trading in NXT AE, then BTC wont matter much anyway.

I think denominating AE trades to external currencies is a bad idea. If NXT were the only accepted tender for AE transactions, it WOULD create a scarcity of NXT currency, but this scarcity would by inherent laws of supply and demand, only valuate the NXT currency. The "Free Market" would dictate trading, and either the amount of external assets being traded on the AE would gradually increase with as the value and capacity of NXT allowed, or the demand for NXT would drive the value and capacity to facilitate trading assets.  In my opinion the NXT network should be valued in NXT and only NXT. We could allow other forms of currency or assets use of the blockchain for purchase of goods and services and charge a transaction fee in NXT, but I think all NXT network features should be exclusive to NXT currency. We should be patient and let NXT currency be the base currency of the NXT free market.

[CIYAM]

I think denominating AE trades to external currencies is a bad idea.

The AT approach I described would do no such thing (it would be effectively *outside* of AE).

The feature that makes this possible is the Asset Transfer one (you can play with it on testnet).

So right now you do "do a swap" with someone *but* you'd need to trust them to uphold "their end of the agreement". The difference with using AT to do this is you can "take out the trust" (in fact the AT acts as an "escrow").

Remember also that ATs are not going to be *cheap* (and their fuel is NXT) so the more that they are used then the more NXT will be worth.

[lucky88888]

i do not know what to attribute the price swing to but i just wanted to point out that i also have noticed the striking independence from bitcoins price. not just in this swing but in general always nxt has been like that. to me its EXTREMELY long term bullish, no other altcoin behaves this way that i am aware of. for better or worse nxt is its own animal entirely.

+1

so true! and i like it! 

[pandaisftw]

Again, the suffix is not intended for uses to take a glance at and instantly trust the issuer. It is there so *humans* can remember which issuer is which (instead of 12312314141 vs. 1231514241), even if they are scams. All of these other systems - verification (basically ripple trustlines), service providers, self-added, etc. - can be done on top of this.

Asset names were made non-unique because that didn't make sense, it's completely possible for two different companies to release "swimming trunks". However, now the focus is shifted on the to issuer, which matches how reality works, and is not a "back-door" to unique asset names. It is not possible for two people to claim to be the CEO of Microsoft at the same time. You would buy Windows 8 from Microsoft, not Evil Bob. Same thing with AE - if Microsoft's true name on the AE is Microsoft123, then people will buy from Microsoft123 and not the scam Microsoft. Once the user verifies Microsoft123 is the real one, he can simply add Microsoft123 to his trust list, and never have to worry about buying from scam Microsoft ever again.

Realize the current system (account #'s) is just as prone to scamming, if not more. You can have two issuers, 12312314141 and 1231514241, both with the descriptions "BTC from Bitstamp"... that's confusing, and the user would have to look up which one was real anyways.

And then what about new companies who start with NXT? They can make their name as they want, without being squatted. This is the same situation with the internet - what do you do when you start a new company? You register your site before you announce anything publicly. In fact, it would be crazy not to. So it seems that we want to limit *all* future potential companies that start with NXT so present companies can't be squatted? (Which they can get around anyways, if aliases transfers is implemented. Or, they can just use a "verified" alternate name) Granted, that's where the money is, but the internet can be squatted, and that's not stopping them from using it. IMO, most companies have no problem having a "sub-name" for a certain market. This can apply to the AE as well.

So if the first thing we do is prevent any business from being able to use their own name without extortion it is *hardly going to be appealing*.

what are they doing with domain names since internet is born ?

Again - in many countries it is *illegal* to squat names (such as Australia) - the world isn't just the US.

Something decentralized (and more anonymous without a central registrar) like nxt, it really doesn't matter as no legal actions can be initiated.

However, there is a problem with life-time owning the domain, even after the account is lost (forgotten password, dead person) that domain name is gone forever.

I actually thought about this the other day (because it was related to NXTopia). Expiring Aliases could be very useful, for things like Proof of Ownership (PoO) that become invalidated after a certain time period (rent). The owner of the alias can refresh the duration at anytime before the alias expires, to prevent someone from snatching the alias away right when it expires. This is actually why I asked c-f-b a while back if parallel chains could define their own parameters (but it seems not to be the case). EDIT: Although, AT could probably do something like this anyways.

Pandaisftw

[CIYAM]

The whole broken idea of DNS names was something from the 1980's.

It is now getting closer to 2020 and we *need to do things differently* and in a *decentralised manner* rather than just "it was good enough back then".

The aliases is basically .bit and look how well that went.

If a user gets *confused* by duplicate names *then that is good* as they are unlikely to just "click one at random" and "buy shares".

[BrianNowhere]

I already have (client side) contacts in my web client. Check it out. An asset will show up as issued by "Bob" if you have set that person up as a contact.

Ok I went into the assett exchange and clicked on "assett issuer" which gave me the issuers public address. I then went in a created a new contact with that address and named it "BOOB SELLER".

What I think might solve a lot of the problems you are referring to is if now when I went back into the Asset Exchange and looked at BOOBS
that any assets being issues by "BOOB SELLER" would be readily apparent in that window. I'd know "BOOB SELLER" was a trusted vendor of boobs and would choose his assets. Would also be nice to be able to filter the BOOBS sell order so only "BOOB SELLER" showed up there so I know that if I buy BOOBS I am only buying them from that seller..

[Jerical13]

What James is saying is if one day the big money (hedge funds, institutional investors, "Visa-scale" institutions...) wants to trade on NXT asset exchange, for them to acquire or dispose of that many Nxtcoins will soak up all the liquidity in the NXT markets and cause the price to whipsaw....because they are forced to do transactions denominated in NXT. This means the big money would never get into NXT because they would self-destruct the NXT economy.

The alternative is to have assets CHASE.USD where Chase Bank issues US$1 billion worth and let people trade Chase.USD directly for other assets, and only pay for their transaction fees in Nxt.

Right now if I want to buy an asset, I have to use NXT, which is fine when you're dealing with small time stuff.

I think he has a good point and I can't think of a way to refute it.

James, maybe this message would be better off in the asset exchange thread?

You'll get more traction there rather than get buried ITT.

If it were possible to create a Chase.USD client that could operate within the NXT blockchain, and allow for purchasing goods and services and charge a fee in NXT for transactions, it would create an outlet that would encourage usage of the NXT network as a tool for commerce, and it would also create a valueing demand for the NXT currency. To modify AE transactions to create less of a demand for NXT is without a doubt economically counterproductive, and in my opinion should not be done. From a capitalist free market stand point, creating a demand for a commodity or asset or product or currency, that can't be filled is a good thing, as value is determined by what the market will bare.

Allowing other currencies this type of influence in the NXT ecosystem would be bad, and could potential put fiats or any other currency in a network controlling position. NXT currency HAS to be the base currency (in my opinion).

[wesleyh]

I already have (client side) contacts in my web client. Check it out. An asset will show up as issued by "Bob" if you have set that person up as a contact.

Ok I went into the assett exchange and clicked on "assett issuer" which gave me the issuers public address. I then went in a created a new contact with that address and named it "BOOB SELLER".

What I think might solve a lot of the problems you are referring to is if now when I went back into the Asset Exchange and looked at BOOBS
that any assets being issues by "BOOB SELLER" would be readily apparent in that window. I'd know "BOOB SELLER" was a trusted vendor of boobs and would choose his assets. Would also be nice to be able to filter the BOOBS sell order so only "BOOB SELLER" showed up there so I know that if I buy BOOBS I am only buying them from that seller..

Well there is right click , add to group functionality in the sidebar.

[Jerical13]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin cap


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt), 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

The sequence of events has to be:
1) big money comes into NXT
2) NXT becomes worth big money

By restricting to NXT trading, we limit the total  value of new assets coming into NXT AE to the market value of the NXT. The way people start getting astronomical (moon talk) when there is a 1 million NXT order, the amount of liquid NXT that wont change the market price much is LESS than 1 million NXT.

Let us say that we can be generous and just pretend a 1 million NXT order is routine. Let us assume NXT goes back to being worth 5 cents. this means that if more than $50,000 worth of assets comes into the market, it will start moving the price. If $500,000 comes in, it will dramatically move the price. If $5 million comes in, the price is doubled or tripled. If $50 million comes in, it goes up 100 fold.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person putting all this money. Your asset (whatever it is) has just depreciated 99% because of what you did. Of course, if you just issue the asset and nobody trades it for whatever reason, there wont be any effect, but there wont be any benefit either. The idea is for assets to come in and get traded to some extent, otherwise it is just "NXT A", not "NXT AE"

So if you wanted to sell $50 million worth of assets via NXT AE for NXT, when would you stop selling? When you started getting 80% of initial price? 50%? 10%? 5%? 1%?

The financial pain will be so great to anybody that tries this in spite of this math that they will be forced to stop. I would imagine around the 80% of initial price level.

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT. [Edit: keeping the price of NXT at 5 cents]

James

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

[Come-from-Beyond]

nxt gives meaning to the term dumpcoin the only coin where they dump without pump

maybe you should consider name change 

Bravo, keep posting!

[bidji29]

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

USD is currently the world currency. Everyone know it. That's why people want to use it, even if it's "inferior".

NXT will be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem no matter what, because that's just logic. But we need to let people make their choice and don't enforce our currency.

[mthcl]

Again on this "true randomization" issue. In general, what amount of randomization is desirable, i.e., how often should it happen? If not very often (e.g., several times a day), then the real world will take care of this (because nodes go online and offline, money are transferred, etc.).

If this is not enough, then the following procedure is possible. First X accounts (w.r.t. the inverse weights) choose some "random" numbers locally, and publish their hashes. X is supposed to be large enough so that the bad guy would never control exactly all of them. Then, they publish numbers themselves; if the published number does not correspond to the hash or is not published at all, then the corresponding account is heavily penalized. If that happens for at least one account, the whole procedure is invalidated (and we wait for the next try)..

For now, I don't see how this can be gamed...

[rdanneskjoldr]

Twitter kind of had the same problem with usernames, and everything is fine.Even some big companies had to add a number or letter to their brand name,because it was already taken, or buy it for not a lot of money,as it isnt such a big problem.Then the name that appears on your profile can be repeated,and people is used to going to the official website or googling to verify which account is the official one of who they want to follow. They follow it,and never see fake ones again.

[TwinWinNerD]

How about we make a prove of work scheme to get asset names? Like vanity addresses. But we only show the first 12 digits?

That is a weird idea

[Jerical13]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

We can have both. I do not see why it is mutually exclusive at all. In fact, I predict that the vast majority of trading in the AE will be against NXT, just like the vast majority of trading in Ripple is against XRP. This is probably due to the counterparty risks

However, I want to make sure that if OPEC wanted to start trading oil for gold, or oil for CNY, or oil for pink unicorns that they will have a viable option with NXT AE

James

In the long term it would be a bad idea to do this. If NXT is a better platform for commerce than any other platform, then it will be used. The focus should be to make NXT this type of platform, and making the NXT currency subordinate is counter productive to this.

[mthcl]

It's all fine to say "let the market decide" but you do know that in many countries "it is illegal to squat on domain names" (countries like say Australia).

Also look at .bit - how well has that done?

Basically the squatting has pretty much ruined any impetus it had at all.

I tend to agree with CIYAM in this discussion.

[CIYAM]

Another thing that springs to mind wrt randomness would be looking at "the past" (so say the payload hash of the block at height x - 1440).

Other things to "add entropy" might be the account's public key and their balance at whatever point in time and one could even require "hash iterations" or the like so that "trying to calculate" ticket values for all possible accounts in order to try and game might be more costly that the time it takes to forge a block.

[abctc]

Well, there is more to consider. Humans and machines need to uniquely identify an asset.
For machines, a cryptic number is okay. They simply do not care.
For humans, that numbers are not. They need readable and catchy names.

+ 1440 !!  I wonder, why it isn't obvious for all...