NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[gs02xzz]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

Yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin market capitalization


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, a NXT coin price is 30% less than the CURRENT price of a one-ounce gold coin and total available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt) and 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

+1. Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

[rickyjames]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

That ain't bad for a coin that didn't even exist 120 days ago.  Just wait until we get our act together.  And we will.

[jl777]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin cap


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt), 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

The sequence of events has to be:
1) big money comes into NXT
2) NXT becomes worth big money

By restricting to NXT trading, we limit the total  value of new assets coming into NXT AE to the market value of the NXT. The way people start getting astronomical (moon talk) when there is a 1 million NXT order, the amount of liquid NXT that wont change the market price much is LESS than 1 million NXT.

Let us say that we can be generous and just pretend a 1 million NXT order is routine. Let us assume NXT goes back to being worth 5 cents. this means that if more than $50,000 worth of assets comes into the market, it will start moving the price. If $500,000 comes in, it will dramatically move the price. If $5 million comes in, the price is doubled or tripled. If $50 million comes in, it goes up 100 fold.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person putting all this money. Your asset (whatever it is) has just depreciated 99% because of what you did. Of course, if you just issue the asset and nobody trades it for whatever reason, there wont be any effect, but there wont be any benefit either. The idea is for assets to come in and get traded to some extent, otherwise it is just "NXT A", not "NXT AE"

So if you wanted to sell $50 million worth of assets via NXT AE for NXT, when would you stop selling? When you started getting 80% of initial price? 50%? 10%? 5%? 1%?

The financial pain will be so great to anybody that tries this in spite of this math that they will be forced to stop. I would imagine around the 80% of initial price level.

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT. [Edit: keeping the price of NXT at 5 cents]

James

[rickyjames]

Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

My vote for quote of the week.

My vote for runner-up up is what I added to my original post:

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

[rickyjames]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

Guess we need to decide for our mission statement if we are most interested in maximizing value to our NXT stakeholders or to billion dollar asset listers on our exchange.

[mczarnek]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

[jl777]

Make 8 decimal points. You never know.

My vote for quote of the week.

My vote for runner-up up is what I added to my original post:

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

Before NXT can have a $1 trillion USD market cap, it must have a $100 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $100 billion USD market cap, it must have a $10 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $10 billion USD market cap, it must have a $1 billion market cap
Before NXT can have a $1 billion USD market cap, it must have a $100 million market cap

OK, I think at one point NXT did have close to $100 million market cap. I want to have a REALISTIC path to the first lines of my response. I do not believe that finding a generous billionaire to pump in lots of money will happen unless I see pink unicorns outside my window. Just checked, no unicorns pink or otherwise.

So, what is more likely?

A) Pink Unicorns
B) Crazy billionaire
C) NXT supports non-NXT Asset trading and big money guys decide to test a decentralized exchange and we do everything we can to make sure it has good performance and value and more big money guys use NXT.

C) is a lot more boring and will take a lot longer than A) or B). I admit this. However, C) happens to be the only realistic path for AE to become worth billions of USD. That is by supporting the trading of trillions of USD worth of stuff.

NXT has other things that will add to its market cap, I am just talking about the market cap contribution of AE

James

[pandaisftw]

What is the logic behind allowing multiple assets with the same name?
How are client developers supposed to deal with this?

Assets have a unique identifying ID. There's really not much reason to restrict to unique names. I have proposed a way to for asset issuers to assign themselves company names, attach images, etc.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1FsyumJLmQ9ckLNkHlmW1oPRGOoK3oAg_pVjFz3s0fNw/edit#slide=id.g1ce2334a0_00

With tags and sorting, I think the AE will be rather organized.

Pandaisftw

[Armando]

Im thinking to invest some more in NXT, can somebody give me a good reason to do this? Because its already for months up and down around 7500 satoshi.

There are enough reasons:

- Multipool started. Look at BlackCoin rates, they were driven to the sky because they we first PoS coin with multipool. But what so special about that coin? Imagine how high NXT can grow - it has 1000 times more potential, and I bet many miners who will start mining to sell NXT for a quick buck, will come to conclusion that it will be better to keep it. Also, if the pool will be paying 1-2 times a day, this will create nice rollercoaster graph (MP buying - price is up, miners chashing out - price goes down), that will attract daytraders

- Big stakeholder finally stopped cashing out. Now there are more stakeholders, and his coins are distributed among more people. He sold more then 1% of total coins amount as I can see, and the price was not affected dramatically, that shows great buy support.

- Buy walls are coming, and not too many sell orders, take a look https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bter/nxtbtc And according to EMA we will grow long time)

- Much WOW features are coming. AE, new clients and many other interesting stuff. Also seems that activity of NXT promoters is increasing, so I strongly believe we'll see  a new price record in near future.

Unlike 99.9% altcoins, NXT creates a real investment opportunity, it's much bigger then army of pump and dump clones. Damn, and there are people who seriously call buying AUR, SPA etc "making an investment") I've made some money there too, but I am putting much more coins here, then even to hottest bublecoin. And the best thing is that NXT has potential for 1000s % increase, almost without any risk!

[jl777]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

We can have both. I do not see why it is mutually exclusive at all. In fact, I predict that the vast majority of trading in the AE will be against NXT, just like the vast majority of trading in Ripple is against XRP. This is probably due to the counterparty risks

However, I want to make sure that if OPEC wanted to start trading oil for gold, or oil for CNY, or oil for pink unicorns that they will have a viable option with NXT AE

James

[jl777]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

That is how multisig works. Usually none of the parties knows the others private keys.

I dont think I can divulge any details about this regarding NXT, yet

However I am pretty sure CfB used the magic word "multisig" in one of his recent posts

James

P.S. I agree that multisig will be a massively useful feature

[rickyjames]

I want to have a REALISTIC path to the first lines of my response. I do not believe that finding a generous billionaire to pump in lots of money will happen unless I see pink unicorns outside my window. Just checked, no unicorns pink or otherwise.

NXT has other things that will add to its market cap, I am just talking about the market cap contribution of AE.

The REALISTIC path for insane levels of NXT market cap growth is the same REALISTIC path that Bitcoin has followed and is following now.  It's not one billionaire pumping in lots of money.  It's billions of people pumping in a little bit of money each.  Bitcoin has under 2 million users and it got over half of them in the last six months.  There's 300 million people in China on the internet.  Most of the volume in NXT growth is from BTER = Chinese who haven't decided yet if Bitcoin or NXT is their cryptocurrency of choice.  If you think that incredible levels of market utilization growth and value growth are all behind us instead of in front of us for the yet-to-be-crowned king of cryptocoin... think about it some more.  We are all still on the chain getting pulled up to the first drop on the roller coaster ride.

1 NXT = $1000 means NXT reaches the ballpark where Bitcoin is now after five years of utilization and growth.  If that's not your goal for where we are at the end of OUR first five years, you're not dreaming big enough.

[mczarnek]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

That is how multisig works. Usually none of the parties knows the others private keys.

I dont think I can divulge any details about this regarding NXT, yet

However I am pretty sure CfB used the magic word "multisig" in one of his recent posts

James

P.S. I agree that multisig will be a massively useful feature

Yeah, there are many reason that multisig will be huge once implemented.

For this specific idea, I understand regarding the unlocking part, do you know about the creating part?

As I understand it one person has to know all keys used originally to create the public key were held by one person or machine during the creation, then they disperse the private keys and are trusted to destroy them, right?  Or is it possible for the public key to be created in parts with no one person knowing the private key at any point in time?

[rickyjames]

This is why we MUST allow denominating AE trades in any other asset. USD, BTC, EUR, JPY, GLD, WTI, BCO, etc.

Does anybody really think that allowing trades to be denominated in USD (or BTC or ...) will do anything other than help NXT? It wont affect USD to any noticeable degree.

Bitcoin is our bitter enemy that has a HUGE head start and will destroy us if they can, possibly without even realizing or caring that they have.  

Creating an NXT exchange and then just saying, "welcome to our nice shiny new exchange and go right ahead to price stuff in the BTC currency that is used by 90%+ of all transactions now instead of pricing them with our struggling-to-be-born NXT currency" just seems crazy and suicidal to me.

That is why we MUST allow denominating AE trades only in NXT (or maybe USD since THAT won't affect NXT (or help Bitcoin) to any noticeable degree).

Look at it this way.  Let's start with NXT-only asset denomination and let it go for six months or a year or whatever.  If it doesn't work, THEN open it up to BTC asset pricing.

You can always start with NXT only asset pricing and open up later to BTC/Doge/etc pricing LATER.  You can NEVER go back to NXT only pricing if you START with open pricing of all PoW sh*tcoins, the howls of protest would be overwhelming and kill us.

Doesn't it make sense to initially at least TRY to run an exchange with ONLY the coin WE CREATED AND ARE TRYING TO BREATHE LIFE INTO?  

P.S. If we end up helping BTC by .01% is that really such a bad thing? After all, how BTC goes, all crypto goes at least for the near future. Once we have billions of dollars of trading in NXT AE, then BTC wont matter much anyway.

It's gonna matter a lot when BTC pricing chokes out NXT pricing of assets as more and more Bitcoin users flock to our exchange and never make the switch to being NXT users for anything more than tiny exchange fees.
 

[TodaysCrypto]

Today's crypto coin is Nxt!

http://www.todayscryptocoin.com/Nxt/

@TodaysCrypto



 

[jl777]

Could there be assets within NXT that exceed the market cap of NXT?  Certainly.  I don't see the problem.

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, not all, but the above is what I am confused by.

Let us create a hypothetical OPEC oil for gold market in AE. There is $1 billion worth of oil assets and $1 billion worth of gold assets. Let us assume there is 1 million NXT available to be used for this market. We fix the price of NXT at 5 cents for the duration of the following events. I hope it is not unreasonable to assume a fixed NXT price for a small timeframe.

oil guys want to sell a small amount, say $10 million before lunch.
gold guys want to buy a small amount of oil, say $10 million worth before lunch.

Please explains to me how this will work in the AE.

Sell order oil asset $10 million -> 5 cents = 200 million NXT
Buy gold assets with the 200 million NXT we got for the oil

or

Sell order gold assets $10 million for 200 million NXT
Buy order $10 million of oil assets for 200 million NXT

Which of the above two scenarios will happen before lunch? Or maybe a third scenario? How will the oil guys and gold guys make this happen? Do you really not see a problem here?

James

[mczarnek]

The question is do we want everything in AE to be traded via NXT.
If the market really wants this, there will be AssetA <-> AssetB direct trading.

I see no reason to force NXT as intermediate store when trading AssetA to AssetB.  NXT will be used to pay transaction (bid/ask) fees.

Furthermore, we should not let any fears of devaluing NXT prevent many kinds of uses of the NXT blockchain.  NXT will always be needed to create an entry into the public ledger as a transaction fee, and should gain in value as more uses are created.  (And IMHO, fees should be kept exceptionally low to encourage widespread adoption and use -- money flows to efficiency).

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?
c) $1 billion USD
Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

The asset issuer either has the reputation and means to satisfy withdrawals to real USD via gateway(s), or it doesn't.  Once it doesn't, then those assets become worthless and trade for pennies on the dollar -- Simply issuing 1 Billion 'USD' assets does not make it worth $1 Billion.

I am assuming the asset issuer merits trust, eg. large international bank. Let us assume there is an automated gateway so you can always safely redeem your USD assets. [ok nothing is "safe", this is a thought experiment to evaluate denominating things in AE in USD]

Do you see the problem, actually impossibility of anybody depositing $1 billion into NXT AE if all AE transactions are denominated in NXT? Maybe there is a way to break transactions up into itty bitty pieces and use up all of the NXT available in the liquid form, but not only will that create extreme volatility for the hypothetical large USD transaction, why would anybody with a $1 billion USD even attempt such insanity. So not impossible, but highly improbable

Usually people who control $1 Billion+ dont do stupid things. Putting in 30 times the market cap into a trading platform that limits trading to whatever NXT is available from the market cap (5%?) would qualify as idiotic. Anybody that does that will instantly be fired, or no longer be a billionaire.

This is why we MUST allow denominating AE trades in any other asset. USD, BTC, EUR, JPY, GLD, WTI, BCO, etc.

Does anybody really think that allowing trades to be denominated in USD (or BTC or ...) will do anything other than help NXT? It wont affect USD to any noticeable degree.

James

P.S. If we end up helping BTC by .01% is that really such a bad thing? After all, how BTC goes, all crypto goes at least for the near future. Once we have billions of dollars of trading in NXT AE, then BTC wont matter much anyway.

Have given myself a little time to digest the idea, and propose an argument in favor of denomination in NXT.

Consider that every asset pair needs a market for bid/ask to be filled.  When denominated in NXT, N assets provide N markets.  However, if assets are traded directly then would require N! (N factorial) markets, which gets LARGE VERY QUICKLY.  Therefore, direct trading by asset pair could greatly limit available liquidity in any single market.

NXT-denominated:
For a $1 Billion investor who wanted to trade A for B, and does so by A -> NXT -> B.  NXT-denominated provides exactly two markets on which to fulfill orders.

Anything-denominated:
For the same $1 Billion investor who wants to trade A for B in an 'anything denominated exchange' would have to evaluate POSSIBLY THOUSANDS of markets for the best trade values to end up with the same trade.  Perhaps today A->BTC->DOGE->LTC->MOON->B is the best value, and tomorrow is something different (and, could get far more convoluted than that!).

Also remember, a $1 Billion investor could not even make an investment that large unless there were associated asks for the bids...

Could there be assets within NXT that exceed the market cap of NXT?  Certainly.  I don't see the problem.

edit: Consider NXT function in this case as BTC functions today: the 'gold standard' of cryptocurrencies.  And not gold as in 'best', but in which all others are denominated.  Very few altcoins have direct trades to fiat or any other altcoin.  Does that mean no alt could ever exceed the market cap of Bitcoin?  I think not.

No, it wouldn't be factorial, it'd be N(N-1) because every asset would have to know it's price relative to every other asset, there are N assets, each of which needs to be traded against N-1 other assets.. right?

I would still price them all in Nxt from a marketing and learning the value of a Nxt perspective..  no person can remember N(N-1) prices and figure out a base price from that mess.  If other currencies on their become popular, you can trade them based on their prices in those currencies.  But maybe they'll be 200 currencies on their that are popular enough for us to worry about pricing items against them?  I wouldn't include prices for every single alt coin for example.

But initially, yes everything must be denominated in terms of Nxt until we are bigger than Bitcoin.  Otherwise it's kind of like free advertising for them.

[jl777]

Very important!
Can't say why but trust me, if this is possible, it'd huge for Nxt

Is it possible to create multiple signature addresses without one person knowing all the private keys used to generate it?

Something along the lines of, person A generates part of the key, passes it to person B who generates part two, who passes it to person C who generates the final key?  Then any 2 out of those 3 keys is needed to unlock it?

Thanks!

That is how multisig works. Usually none of the parties knows the others private keys.

I dont think I can divulge any details about this regarding NXT, yet

However I am pretty sure CfB used the magic word "multisig" in one of his recent posts

James

P.S. I agree that multisig will be a massively useful feature

Yeah, there are many reason that multisig will be huge once implemented.

For this specific idea, I understand regarding the unlocking part, do you know about the creating part?

As I understand it one person has to know all keys used originally to create the public key were held by one person or machine during the creation, then they disperse the private keys and are trusted to destroy them, right?  Or is it possible for the public key to be created in parts with no one person knowing the private key at any point in time?

In bitcoin a multisig acct is created deterministically from the three public keys. anybody who has the three public keys can create the corresponding multisig acct.

However two of the three (or three of the three) will need to sign it for it to be valid.

Do not assume NXT multisig will work in the same way

[rickyjames]

But initially, yes everything must be denominated in terms of Nxt until we are bigger than Bitcoin.  Otherwise it's kind of like free advertising for them.

+ 1 Billion NXT

[dhit]

I would hope for NXT denomination, & certainly not FRNs.  I understand why you wouldn't want to use another CC, but the CC with the largest market cap is probably best, as it is truly defined by market.  Gold would be preferable to FRNs, though its perceived value is manipulated as well.