[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[toknormal]

I do not see SegWit and the lighting network as solutions to scaling at all...In Bitcoin there is a fundamental ideological divide between on chain scaling and off chain scaling. I favor on chain scaling

I thought Justus Ranvier put it really well...every feature that bitcoin could adopt is good but you have to ask the question "good for whom" ?

I've seen very few people in this whole debate lay out such an informing and unbiased account of all the various priorities. In fact, I'm gonna have to watch that again.

Here's the thing that I've been trying to raise more discussion about, both here and in other places: There are 2 aspects to this:

[1] - scaling the blockchain
[2] - scaling the money supply

These need to be treated distinctly and I think thats what confuses people.

As far as [1]-scaling the blockchain goes, there's no amount of native scaling you can do that can ever meet the capacity or functionality requirements of a mature economy that uses your currency as a denomination. For example, just take the cryptocurrency exchanges of today. All trades are instant, regardless of the performance of the respective blockchains of the currencies being traded.

Another example is retail.

Retail is always gonna use "off-chain" transaction handling simply because it's an application in its own right. e.g. a Supermarket has a great big SQL server in a back room (or data centre) connected to the cash tills at one end and the Visa network at the other that's capable of all kinds of stuff that a blockchain just is not equipped for. Things like instant reversals cos your cornflakes got rung through on the other customer's bill, discounts, store card stuff and wotnot.

To me, Blockchain scaling and performance is more about consolidating the monetary properties of an electronic asset, not supporting POS networks.

Next we have [2] - scaling the money supply.

This is more about creating 2nd and 3rd monetary tiers (in the fiat world these are the credit tiers which basically form 80% of the money supply, in other words, the main part of it). These tiers are the "promissory notes" that Justus Ranvier was talking about.

Clearly, higher order monetary tiers are instant by their nature (because we're just talking about moving numbers around, not blockchain transactions). Any level of adoption will naturally result in the growth of these additional tiers - thats just how all economies work - so scaling kind of takes care of itself in that respect.

Thats why I think the point at which you scale the native blockchain to is largely arbitrary. The thing that's important however IMO is that its universally accessible (in the way that - even though I've got all my money in a bank account, I can always get it in paper notes to hold in my hand if I want). Thats the minimum level of scaling that a blockchain needs IMO. (i.e. that you can access it directly with a wallet client as you can today, without dependency on a 3rd party).

Blockchains don't have to handle (and probably will never be asked to handle) realtime commercial trades to any industrial extent, any more than the bank clearing network does today.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

I do not see SegWit and the lighting network as solutions to scaling at all...In Bitcoin there is a fundamental ideological divide between on chain scaling and off chain scaling. I favor on chain scaling

I thought Justus Ranvier put it really well...every feature that bitcoin could adopt is good but you have to ask the question "good for whom" ?

I've seen very few people in this whole debate lay out such an informing and unbiased account of all the various priorities. In fact, I'm gonna have to watch that again.

Here's the thing that I've been trying to raise more discussion about, both here and in other places: There are 2 aspects to this:

[1] - scaling the blockchain
[2] - scaling the money supply

These need to be treated distinctly and I think thats what confuses people.

As far as [1]-scaling the blockchain goes, there's no amount of native scaling you can do that can ever meet the capacity or functionality requirements of a mature economy that uses your currency as a denomination. For example, just take the cryptocurrency exchanges of today. All trades are instant, regardless of the performance of the respective blockchains of the currencies being traded.

Another example is retail.

Retail is always gonna use "off-chain" transaction handling simply because it's an application in its own right. e.g. a Supermarket has a great big SQL server in a back room (or data centre) connected to the cash tills at one end and the Visa network at the other that's capable of all kinds of stuff that a blockchain just is not equipped for. Things like instant reversals cos your cornflakes got rung through on the other customer's bill, discounts, store card stuff and wotnot.

To me, Blockchain scaling and performance is more about consolidating the monetary properties of an electronic asset, not supporting POS networks.

Next we have [2] - scaling the money supply.

This is more about creating 2nd and 3rd monetary tiers (in the fiat world these are the credit tiers which basically form 80% of the money supply, in other words, the main part of it). These tiers are the "promissory notes" that Justus Ranvier was talking about.

Clearly, higher order monetary tiers are instant by their nature (because we're just talking about moving numbers around, not blockchain transactions). Any level of adoption will naturally result in the growth of these additional tiers - thats just how all economies work - so scaling kind of takes care of itself in that respect.

Thats why I think the point at which you scale the native blockchain to is largely arbitrary. The thing that's important however IMO is that its universally accessible (in the way that - even though I've got all my money in a bank account, I can always get it in paper notes to hold in my hand if I want). Thats the minimum level of scaling that a blockchain needs IMO. (i.e. that you can access it directly with a wallet client as you can today, without dependency on a 3rd party).

Blockchains don't have to handle (and probably will never be asked to handle) realtime commercial trades to any industrial extent, any more than the bank clearing network does today.

Tok, PLEASE post this on the progress thread! You are a gem, and this should be shared.

[toknormal]

Tok, PLEASE post this on the progress thread!

Ok, posted as you requested, but just before you get too excited because I used the word "tier" I wasn't meaning network tier (aka masternodes), I was meaning monetary tier. A very different thing.

A secondary monetary tier is a credit supply (albeit on potentially a 1:1 reserve ratio) levered off the base money supply. (Such as was described in the Dash blockchain budget "Proof of Labour" proposal).

(What we trade on exchanges is one such secondary tier. That is a credit tier, backed on a 1:1 reserve ratio by a blockchain deposit).

[ddink7]

...


Another example is retail.

Retail is always gonna use "off-chain" transaction handling simply because it's an application in its own right. e.g. a Supermarket has a great big SQL server in a back room (or data centre) connected to the cash tills at one end and the Visa network at the other that's capable of all kinds of stuff that a blockchain just is not equipped for. Things like instant reversals cos your cornflakes got rung through on the other customer's bill, discounts, store card stuff and wotnot.

To me, Blockchain scaling and performance is more about consolidating the monetary properties of an electronic asset, not supporting POS networks.

True, and there's also the fact that retail stores only settle their with Visanet once, at the end of the day.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Tok, PLEASE post this on the progress thread!

Ok, posted as you requested, but just before you get too excited because I used the word "tier" I wasn't meaning network tier (aka masternodes), I was meaning monetary tier. A very different thing.

A secondary monetary tier is a credit supply (albeit on potentially a 1:1 reserve ratio) levered off the base money supply. (Such as was described in the Dash blockchain budget "Proof of Labour" proposal).

(What we trade on exchanges is one such secondary tier. That is a credit tier, backed on a 1:1 reserve ratio by a blockchain deposit).

Thanks, Tok. It's the professionalism that you and Dash represents that I would like to display.

[toknormal]

...professionalism on display....

Just to remind you Tao, this is bitcointalk.

No monetary medium of worth is going to have its fate decided here anymore than in a beancounting cockfight.

All the same I admire your sense of valour  

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

...professionalism on display....

Just to remind you Tao, this is bitcointalk.

No monetary medium of worth is going to have its fate decided here anymore than in a beancounting cockfight.

All the same I admire your sense of valour  

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to frame my ideas for starting this. Maybe I'm not explaining myself right. Let me try again.

Smooth and his cronies have basically backed us into a corner here for two years. Now you may say who cares, this is only BitcoinTalk, we can succeed in the real world. In my opinion, that's true, but lacks a certain focus. No matter what your opinion is about this site, the fact of the matter remains that it is the largest source of crypto information with the largest audience. When newbies come into the cryptosphere through Bitcoin, they inevitably sign up here. If they start to look to diversify, maybe even contribute to other projects, they look to the Altcoin message board. These are real people, with real talents to offer, and the first thing about Dash that they see is Evan is a scammer, Dash is bad crypto, Dash is insecure, etc. Now some may choose to do their own research, but the vast majority will not.

I can't even begin to fathom how many people we may have lost out on during the first two years because of this. People with families, friends, skills to give.

Taking back our identity on this site, over all others, is EXTREMELY important due to those reasons.

The school-boy bullies won't define us anymore. We will define us through the qualities we know we have here. This will be invaluable to the Dash project over time.

BCT matters. We are Dash Nation. Let's take back the discussion.

Thanks for all who helped me today. Please keep up the positive posts, and let me deal with the trolls. Fantastic job today.

[toknormal]

Smooth and his cronies have basically backed us into a corner here for two years

rofwl !

Speak for yourself. They never backed me into a corner. (Nor, apparently Evan). I just invest in what I calculate has a future.

I can't even begin to fathom how many people we may have lost out on during the first two years because of this. People with families, friends, skills to give.

I think what you're missing is the fact that a monetary medium is not a popularity contest. It either works or doesn't.

You're battling battling flies who's argument is already dead and buried and yet dismiss genuine monetary researchers who are trying to open up a secondary monetary tier for Dash.

That just baffles me.

[Solarminer]

Anyone think putting money in a bank is safe now?

http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2016/04/13/current-banker-meetings-are-deciding-how-to-confiscate-your-bank-account-and-retirement/

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Smooth and his cronies have basically backed us into a corner here for two years

rofwl !

Speak for yourself. They never backed me into a corner. (Nor, apparently Evan). I just invest in what I calculate has a future.

I can't even begin to fathom how many people we may have lost out on during the first two years because of this. People with families, friends, skills to give.

I think what you're missing is the fact that a monetary medium is not a popularity contest. It either works or doesn't.

You're battling battling flies who's argument is already dead and buried and yet dismiss genuine monetary researchers who are trying to open up a secondary monetary tier for Dash.

That just baffles me.

My points stand. I'm not battling the posters, I couldn't care less about them. I want the lurkers to see all of the information about Dash front and centre on the board, before being influenced by the school-boy bullies. We had no representation on the Altcoin discussion board. That thread is getting a lot of views, and some PMs have already came my way. This DOES matter, my friend.

You trollin' me bro?   You're supposed to be on my side. Just humor me if you have to...

[toknormal]

You trollin' me bro?   You're supposed to be on my side. Just humor me if you have to...

Not at all. And I don't have the need to humour you either. Few people have done as much to promote the fortunes of this project in creative ways as you have.

I want the lurkers to see all of the information about Dash front and centre on the board

Fair enough. But all I'm saying is that neither lurkers nor trolls make for progress. I don't think Dash's designers were targeting speculative value, I suspect they were targeting actual adoption.

None of that adoption is going to come from bitcointalk readers. It's going to come from a need to connect supply to demand in lots of micro economies. So those micro economies are where you should be directing your attention, not nutcases who's only means of expression is a blow out on bitcointalk.

Sorry to keep coming back to it, but that proof of labour proposal showed the way forward.

People better go back and read it again until they get it into their heads that crypto is real money - not currency - and we're not going to get adoption from people buying sh*t with it. We're going to get adoption from a much more fundamental source - capitalisation of micro economies.

Those two guys understood that. We should too.

[spatula]

Sorry to keep coming back to it, but that proof of labour proposal showed the way forward.

People better go back and read it again until they get it into their heads that crypto is real money - not currency - and we're not going to get adoption from people buying sh*t with it. We're going to get adoption from a much more fundamental source - capitalisation of micro economies.

Those two guys understood that. We should too.

OK you convinced me, I'll try to go read it again. Honestly, I didn't make it very far last time as it just could not keep my interest. I ended up just not voting either way on that proposal.

Do you have a concise, cliff notes type version that I could read before hand that would help me understand what its all about?

[BitWater]

Anyone think putting money in a bank is safe now?

http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2016/04/13/current-banker-meetings-are-deciding-how-to-confiscate-your-bank-account-and-retirement/

Problem with gold/silver is the pain of transporting and transacting with it. This is why we need crypto.

[jiggytom]

Dash is always a late bloomer to these alt coin runs.  It's going to be okay guys, we want slow and steady growth.  Once BTC pops, all the others will tank and Dash will stay strong.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

None of that adoption is going to come from bitcointalk readers.

I couldn't disagree more.

This is a major source of information for the cryptosphere. New users to crypto, who may have talents or investment to share, are going to come to this site, and instead of seeing "Dash is a scam, Dash is insecure, Evan Duffield is a scammer", they are going to see a confident Dash Nation making their own identity, being a beacon of professionalism, optimism and progress.

We deserve that. We are a great group of people making a great product. Let's make BCT a happy place! A place where we can hold our head up high, as we deserve to.

What image would you like to portray to these potential future users of Dash, maybe contributors to Dash one day?

They will then have a reason to come here to our ANN. Up until now, Smooth and his cronies have been able to frame Dash's identity in a very conspicuous place, and that's why these myths continue to circulate.

To all, please continue to represent us well in this community-based thread. I swear it will pay off. It's already starting to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1433982.0

[r4vani]

I decided to add dash as one of payment method to my new project (poker online) 

need some info about instantx + one or two website provide json api for dash price live

[toknormal]

None of that adoption is going to come from bitcointalk readers.

I couldn't disagree more.

Well, as you know I'm a fan of diversity.

As you were then

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

None of that adoption is going to come from bitcointalk readers.

I couldn't disagree more.

Well, as you know I'm a fan of diversity.

As you were then

Tok, check this out. From the "Why the Dash Instamine Matters" thread, about Dash:

Yeah okay, thanks. That's kinda what I thought.

I've always been a little bit on the fence about it. On the one hand it seems to get some praise from certain media outlets, but on the other hand it seems to get a lot of community disapproval.

Smooth and his cronies are influencing the people that frequent that discussion board. How many lurkers is he influencing as well? I say we move the BCT discussion over there and save this place for announcements and such. Having a stable presence at the top of that discussion board will be key going forward.

Dash Nation Progress Thread. Let's take back the discussion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1433982.0

[TanteStefana2]

Sorry to keep coming back to it, but that proof of labour proposal showed the way forward.

People better go back and read it again until they get it into their heads that crypto is real money - not currency - and we're not going to get adoption from people buying sh*t with it. We're going to get adoption from a much more fundamental source - capitalisation of micro economies.

Those two guys understood that. We should too.

OK you convinced me, I'll try to go read it again. Honestly, I didn't make it very far last time as it just could not keep my interest. I ended up just not voting either way on that proposal.

Do you have a concise, cliff notes type version that I could read before hand that would help me understand what its all about?

The paper is a little clunky with language, but not too bad.  My problem was wrapping my head around the concepts because despite being here, my eyes cross when talking about complex financial systems, though I'm slowly learning. Anyway, the discussion thread is helpful too.

Tao, you are The Undeterrable TaoOfSatochi  And I don't know about anyone else, but I'm amazed and exhausted from watching your consistent energy in promoting Dash, you're amazing!

Sorry I disappeared.  Stupid me, I stepped off a step the wrong way, and fell, totally messing up my knees (which are already messed up) and busting my ankle last Sunday.  Been in pain, and not up to coming here to talk, but I feel so much better today, and can face the world again, LOL.   So hello again all! 

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Sorry to keep coming back to it, but that proof of labour proposal showed the way forward.

People better go back and read it again until they get it into their heads that crypto is real money - not currency - and we're not going to get adoption from people buying sh*t with it. We're going to get adoption from a much more fundamental source - capitalisation of micro economies.

Those two guys understood that. We should too.

OK you convinced me, I'll try to go read it again. Honestly, I didn't make it very far last time as it just could not keep my interest. I ended up just not voting either way on that proposal.

Do you have a concise, cliff notes type version that I could read before hand that would help me understand what its all about?

The paper is a little clunky with language, but not too bad.  My problem was wrapping my head around the concepts because despite being here, my eyes cross when talking about complex financial systems, though I'm slowly learning. Anyway, the discussion thread is helpful too.

Tao, you are The Undeterrable TaoOfSatochi  And I don't know about anyone else, but I'm amazed and exhausted from watching your consistent energy in promoting Dash, you're amazing!

Sorry I disappeared.  Stupid me, I stepped off a step the wrong way, and fell, totally messing up my knees (which are already messed up) and busting my ankle last Sunday.  Been in pain, and not up to coming here to talk, but I feel so much better today, and can face the world again, LOL.   So hello again all!  

Tante, I'm going to quote you and answer you on the Dash Nation thread. I hope that everyone posting after this will please take the conversation over there. We will all benefit from it by taking our identity back on BCT.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1433982.0
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah okay, thanks. That's kinda what I thought.

I've always been a little bit on the fence about it. On the one hand it seems to get some praise from certain media outlets, but on the other hand it seems to get a lot of community disapproval.

Smooth and his cronies are influencing the people that frequent that Altcoin Discussion board. How many lurkers is he influencing as well? I say we move the BCT discussion over there and save this place for announcements and such. Having a stable presence at the top of that discussion board will be key going forward.