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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 45049 times)
eddie13
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April 05, 2019, 12:00:42 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2019, 12:12:17 AM by eddie13
 #1521

you are mixing things up here, a trustworthy user does not necessary mean a good reviewer, the initial purpose of the trust system was intended for that ONLY  > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211858.msg2221664#msg2221664
DTs need to be good reviewers and trustworthy to make good decisions. Especially DT1s..

it was even named "Marketplace trust" when it was first implemented, just because some people use it for other purposes , it does not mean that it's good for anything else aside from mainly tagging scammers.
What about labeling users you can trust to trade with?

not being on DT does not reduce your right of free speech, not even having negative feed back does, in fact a few people with negative feedback post more than 100 other users combined on Meta alone, your theory would have been valid if the trust system limits you from posting or something like that.
I don't get your point here..

aside from that a good DT member is one who spots scammers and abusers, if satoshi himself was to come back and not be active in terms of tagging scammers then he does not deserve to be a DT member, he would probably be the most trusted member but that's a whole different story.
Satoshi should most definitely be DT1.. Are you kidding?
You don't deserve to be on DT just by tagging scammers, or the opposite..

so unless the community members are going to benefit from your position in terms of trading, then there is no reason why one should be on DT list just for their own self satisfaction.
You do not need to tag scammers constantly to be on DT.

DT members don't only have the power to enforce the laws, they are entrusted with the power to make the laws, especially DT1..
The consensus of the DT1 members opinions decide who is on DT2, who is on DT1, what behavior is acceptable, and what behavior is not acceptable..
We need DT1 members that we can trust to make good laws, or come to a good consensus of what is right and wrong for the community.. Not just hand out tags..


some people have proven themselves both wise in terms of giving feedback and trading in under a year
Or maybe they have proven themselves wise enough to give off that impression? Too much ambition to gain trust and power is untrustworthy.
1 year is nothing... Is a 1 year setup even enough to classify as a "long" con? Possibly not..



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April 05, 2019, 12:28:14 AM
 #1522


If I had any sMerit left, I would give this post merit.

for obvious reasons you don't.
Correct. I have received the 99th most merit out of every forum member, and the 29th most generous recent merit giver.

you are probably lean towards "older members prioritizing theory" 
Perhaps you should review my posts, or ask my opinion instead of blindly assuming my stance on issues. Your statement is a prime example why you are unqualified to play any role in forum politics....

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April 05, 2019, 12:38:12 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2019, 12:52:27 AM by mikeywith
 #1523


I don't get your point here..

you talked about freedom, and i explained that every member on the forum has the same level of freedom regardless of their position and score in the trust system.


Quote
The consensus of the DT1 members opinions decide who is on DT2, who is on DT1, what behavior is acceptable, and what behavior is not acceptable..
We need DT1 members that we can trust to make good laws, or come to a good consensus of what is right and wrong for the community.. Not just hand out tags..


The laws that are followed now came from old DT members , the majority of new DT1 and DT2 members are elected by old members, so if you trust their judgment then there is no reason to nag about new members.


Quote
Satoshi should most definitely be DT1.. Are you kidding?

Nop , i am not ! it's good to see you practice what you preach, just checked Satoshi's trust page and you have him in your trust list despite the fact that he has 0  feedback sent ,and most likely will never send any, you seem to be confusing trust list and DT to feedback and trustworthiness. having Satoshi in your trust list does nothing besides adding a new row into the forum's database.

but hey that's just my opinion,  if you still insist that only old members should be on DT , you may very well sort all users by user's ID and include the first 100/1000/5000 members in your list.

I have received the 99th most merit out of every forum member

and i received the 44th most merited in just a few months, not a big deal.

  
Quote
Perhaps you should review my posts, or ask my opinion instead of blindly assuming my stance on issues.

Sorry if i was too harsh ,its not me who accused you for anything, it's the "older members" whom you think should control DT list , why bother explain yourself to a new comer like me ? i am just a random person who "trigger happy when it comes to tagging users"  known by nobody, you should spend the time sorting things out with those that you think matter most.

Quote
Your statement is a prime example why you are unqualified to play any role in forum politics....

You are probably right, except that, i have 0 interest in forum politics, and i give no fuck who likes/dislikes whom, check my trust list and you will understand, my main motive is to expose and tag scammers and that's it.

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April 05, 2019, 12:54:02 AM
 #1524

You don't deserve to be on DT just by tagging scammers, or the opposite..

I would (obviously) disagree..

At one time DT was filled with people who cared about bitcoin.
Now it is filling with people who care about making money with bitcoin.

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April 05, 2019, 12:54:29 AM
 #1525

It's not ready yet, but as a first result, these users on DT2 need looking into:
glen123 (1) (Trust: -32: -5 / +0)
winspiral (1) (Trust: -32: -5 / +0)

Both are included by this new DT1 member:
Quote
Trust list for: willi9974 (Trust: 4: -1 / +5) (DT1! (1) 34 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2019-04-04_Thu_10.14h)
Back to index

Thanks for posting, I've removed him from my trust list for now and will tell him about the situation.

I added him to my trust list earlier because he is offering a trusted escrow in the German local board for very long and he left some feedback about the trades so I thought it would be good to have his ratings visible in the German community (DT2). He did also some group buys where he purchased miners for solo mining and splitted the profits to the investors (similar to LoyceV's 10 Altcoins challenge but for mining) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348143.0

I wasn't aware that he set all the users he traded with on his personal trust list and that isn't how DT1 works to add everyone there. It doesn't look to me that he did so to push his trust rating, only a confusion of trust list and sent feedback.
Removed for now and will tell him to review it.

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April 05, 2019, 12:55:47 AM
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #1526

You don't deserve to be on DT just by tagging scammers, or the opposite..

What exactly is the opposite of tagging scammers? Is it, being tagged by scammers?
Has anyone suggested that would be adequate criteria for DT selection?

The disagreement seemed to be about whether or not Satoshi would belong on DT1 if they were active; I guess the simple answer is that they would be treated the same way as anyone else under the new system. If I had to guess, it would be more their choice to be on DT1 or not (as we've seen with well-respected members already) because of the amount of inclusions and meeting the other criteria.
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April 05, 2019, 01:02:43 AM
Merited by Foxpup (3), TECSHARE (1), LoyceV (1)
 #1527

What exactly is the opposite of tagging scammers? Is it, being tagged by scammers?
Who knows.  The problem with people getting on DT by way of scam-busting is that it doesn't really prove how honest that person is, and even though that is (I think) the reason I was put on DT, I still believe that.  A member can easily just tag a lot of scammy accounts and work their way up to DT in order to pull off a really big scam.  I don't know if that has actually been done, but it's possible.  At least if you have a history of transactions involving money you could have scammed, there's some real basis for trust.

Assuming Satoshi was still around and hadn't scammed anybody, I have no doubt whatsoever that he'd be on DT1.  And under those conditions, he'd deserve to be.  If you can go 10 years without showing evidence of scamming behavior and you actually created bitcoin....yeah, that's DT material IMO.

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April 05, 2019, 01:17:17 AM
 #1528


I don't get your point here..

you talked about freedom, and i explained that every member on the forum poses the same level of freedom regardless of their position and score in the trust system.
How about freedom from harassment? How about some recent cases such as..
Weather or not to tag all lenders who take collateral accounts?
Weather or not to tag all sellers of facebook, twitter, and youtube accounts?
Tagging sold accounts on what evidence?
Tagging accounts based on their affiliation with lemons?
Red tags greatly diminish a users ability to trade and therefore restricts their freedom to trade here..

The laws that are followed now came from old DT members , the majority of new DT1 and DT2 members are elected by old members, so if you trust their judgment then there is no reason to nag about new members.
The laws change here all the time, based on the current consensus of the community, now heavily DT1..
Their are current battles for/against new laws and will be into the future..
We need trusted freedom minded people to maintain just laws or the next thing you know DT will enforce KYC to have the privilege of a clear account..

Quote
Satoshi should most definitely be DT1.. Are you kidding?
Nop , i am not ! it's good to see you practice what you preach, just checked Satoshi's trust page and you have him in your trust list despite the fact that he has 0  feedback sent ,and most likely will never send any, you seem to be confusing trust list and DT to feedback and trustworthiness. having Satoshi in your trust list does nothing besides adding a new row into the forum's database.

but hey that's just my opinion,  if you still insist that only old members should be on DT , you may very well sort all users by user's ID and include the first 100/1000/5000 members in your list.

Satoshi is on my trust list for the novelty and to show respect. What about all the users who have sent merit to Satoshi or positive trust?
I do not believe I am confused..

I don't think I said that only very old members should be on DT, but rather that very new members should possibly not be on DT1, and to be cautious of those who currently are..


You don't deserve to be on DT just by tagging scammers, or the opposite..

I would (obviously) disagree..

At one time DT was filled with people who cared about bitcoin.
Now it is filling with people who care about making money with bitcoin.

I think this is a misunderstanding.. I doubt that you believe everyone that tags scammers deserves to be on DT1, only for tagging scammers, by that metric only and ignoring all other circumstances..
I agree with your last 2 lines..

What exactly is the opposite of tagging scammers? Is it, being tagged by scammers?
A DT member that is not an active scambuster.. I don't believe you have to be an active scambuster or redtagger to be on DT..

The problem with people getting on DT by way of scam-busting is that it doesn't really prove how honest that person is, and even though that is (I think) the reason I was put on DT, I still believe that.  A member can easily just tag a lot of scammy accounts and work their way up to DT in order to pull off a really big scam.  I don't know if that has actually been done, but it's possible.  At least if you have a history of transactions involving money you could have scammed, there's some real basis for trust.

Assuming Satoshi was still around and hadn't scammed anybody, I have no doubt whatsoever that he'd be on DT1.  And under those conditions, he'd deserve to be.  If you can go 10 years without showing evidence of scamming behavior and you actually created bitcoin....yeah, that's DT material IMO.
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April 05, 2019, 01:17:42 AM
 #1529

A member can easily just tag a lot of scammy accounts and work their way up to DT in order to pull off a really big scam.

well but that's the case with everyone else, some people trade with DT members just to get positive feedback "trust farming" and you can see many examples of feedback from DT members even for small deals.

escrow agents may also plan a large exist "scam" , people with higher ranks can also use their rank to scam , The risk is there in every corner of the internet.

besides, you do not need to trust a member to trust their feedback, when you buy something of amazon or ebay and you check the feedback, you don't need to trust the reviewers, I trust many people's feedback but probably only 1 or 2 of them with money, and i am sure that's the case with everyone else. so trust and feedback should really be treated separately IMO.

so if a newbie or member rank gets into DT and spend time and effort tagging scammers,and proves himself to be a good DT member, it does not mean one should trust him with money, that's a whole different subject.


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April 05, 2019, 01:36:04 AM
 #1530

What exactly is the opposite of tagging scammers? Is it, being tagged by scammers?
Who knows.  The problem with people getting on DT by way of scam-busting is that it doesn't really prove how honest that person is, and even though that is (I think) the reason I was put on DT, I still believe that.  A member can easily just tag a lot of scammy accounts and work their way up to DT in order to pull off a really big scam.  I don't know if that has actually been done, but it's possible.  At least if you have a history of transactions involving money you could have scammed, there's some real basis for trust.
Depends on how they are getting into DT. If they are only echoing other users negative feedback and are doing no own digging, I would consider them not worthy of being DT. It's somehow a "proof a work" if someone is spending much time for his reports about scams (such like ICOEthics for example).
It would be easier for scammers to get into DT (or at least to receive some positive feedbacks) by just making deals with highly trusted DT members. That would be a fast and low-risk method if they go always first, receive a few green ratings and finally pull their exit-scam when someone else has to go first. Similar to the marcotheminer issue where also trust was tried to build by trading. 

Scammers would most likely choose part two (trading) for their scams because part one (scammer research) takes too much time and effort.

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April 05, 2019, 02:09:29 AM
Merited by TECSHARE (1)
 #1531

The problem with people getting on DT by way of scam-busting is that it doesn't really prove how honest that person is

The big point is that it does not prove this person's politics are good either..

Some seem to like the idea of a bunch of new rules so they can tag for more things, limiting users freedom, and some have terrible views on freedom of speech and freedom to be anonymous and have all sorts of crazy ideas to regulate anything they can think of..

I don't care how many scammers someone tags, if they disagree with the main principles of Bitcoin I don't think they should be on DT.
Bitcoin is the opposite of authority, censorship, and regulation.

This is not only voting for what tags show up, this is voting for the government..

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April 05, 2019, 07:44:29 AM
 #1532

Good Morning all,

at first time a thanks to 1Miau, he has informed me about this post.

I'm sorry that I had so many in my trust list, but I was not aware in detail. In the first step, I cleared up my trust list and will spend more attention to it.

A little info about me
- Crypto is my biggest hobby besides geocacheing
- i organized group buys from china (Bitmaintech)
- Offer a free escrow service (protection against SCAM out of conviction and without profit)
- I was proposed in the German area as a moderator
- a live witout crypto is not possible for me  

I like to support the community and spend a lot of time. For that reason, I would be very happy if you removed the negative trust and some users distrusts (some user add mi als non trusted member).

For questions or further suggestions to my person or my trust list, just come to me and contact me.

PS: Sorry for my English, it's not the best :-)

Finally, I say thank you, that such errors are shown quickly and i have the possibillity to fix that.


Greetings from Bavaria, for me the best place in germany
Willi

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April 05, 2019, 07:53:22 AM
 #1533

~and some users distrusts (some user add mi als non trusted member)
Excluding you from a trust list doesn't mean they don't trust you (in trades), it means they don't trust your judgement of other users. You probably had a misunderstanding of how the trust system works.
I'm curious to see your new Trust list, which I'll post tomorrow.

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April 05, 2019, 09:48:59 AM
 #1534

~and some users distrusts (some user add mi als non trusted member)
Excluding you from a trust list doesn't mean they don't trust you (in trades), it means they don't trust your judgement of other users. You probably had a misunderstanding of how the trust system works.
I'm curious to see your new Trust list, which I'll post tomorrow.

Yeah, but if one distrusts you, then its just their opinion man, i'm distrusted as well by 2 members, and they will have their own reasons for it....
But I will never ask anyone to ADD or REMOVE me for their trust.... everybody is big enough to make their decisions for theirself.

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April 05, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
Merited by TECSHARE (1)
 #1535

Assuming Satoshi was still around and hadn't scammed anybody, I have no doubt whatsoever that he'd be on DT1.  And under those conditions, he'd deserve to be.  If you can go 10 years without showing evidence of scamming behavior and you actually created bitcoin....yeah, that's DT material IMO.

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.

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April 05, 2019, 04:36:31 PM
Merited by Flying Hellfish (10), suchmoon (9), Lauda (4), Foxpup (2)
 #1536

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.
Your username really should be eGONasty.

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April 05, 2019, 04:38:56 PM
 #1537

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.
Your username really should be eGONasty.

My point exactly.

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April 05, 2019, 04:51:22 PM
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 #1538

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.
Your username really should be eGONasty.

My point exactly.
You were a "target" there for making absurd claims showing your own ego doesn't correspond with reality, not because you're a "successful long term member"
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April 05, 2019, 08:46:36 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #1539

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.
Your username really should be eGONasty.

My point exactly.
You were a "target" there for making absurd claims showing your own ego doesn't correspond with reality, not because you're a "successful long term member"

Yes, everyone listen to the obvious sock puppet of another member here without the balls to speak using their main username. This is a perfect demonstration of what he was talking about. People who operate openly and rank up in this system via time and effort are inherently targets of those who manipulate these systems for their own gain. The decent people doing things the right way then have their overt operations and effort used as leverage against them, while the abusers operate in the dark to increase their own control by displacing them. This is again why I advocate for a standard of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws before leaving negative ratings, because without objective substantiation the trust system simply becomes a tool of extortion of the few people left trying to do it the right way.

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April 05, 2019, 10:12:57 PM
 #1540

I think if he was around he’d be blamed for people losing money in free markets, called a scammer for his holdings, and would be a target for jealous individuals who were unhappy with their own lives. Pretty much the same way every other successful long term member here is treated.  Hence why we’re becoming more and more rare.
Your username really should be eGONasty.

My point exactly.
You were a "target" there for making absurd claims showing your own ego doesn't correspond with reality, not because you're a "successful long term member"

Yes, everyone listen to the obvious sock puppet of another member here without the balls to speak using their main username. This is a perfect demonstration of what he was talking about. People who operate openly and rank up in this system via time and effort are inherently targets of those who manipulate these systems for their own gain. The decent people doing things the right way then have their overt operations and effort used as leverage against them, while the abusers operate in the dark to increase their own control by displacing them. This is again why I advocate for a standard of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws before leaving negative ratings, because without objective substantiation the trust system simply becomes a tool of extortion of the few people left trying to do it the right way.

Sure! Everything is a "perfect demonstration" of whatever ognasty or you say  Roll Eyes
I just posted something obvious so I really don't need "everyone listen to" me. People can read.

You both should try and come back to the real world instead of convincing each other there's a conspiracy against "the 2 only remaining successful users here". You just embarrass yourselves.
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