[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[ryannguyen18]

Check out and share your ideas
http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,608.0.html

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[p4r4m0un7]

Both links are not working.

I will share again my thoughts about development of a coin:
1. Create a coin - some value. If it is a new algo - bigger value. If it is a new less power consuming algo - the better. (Karma have good X11 algo which is no innovation, but less power consuming)
2. Create awareness - not very difficult, but time consuming and valuable. (I think Karma is totally failing here. If we all make posts in twitter, Facebook, G+ and forums every day, the value will definitely raise. And this is value, not only the price. If more people are aware of Karma, the bigger will be the chance for somebody talented to come and do something valuable. So think about this like talent hunting program. Community work in Karma ecosystem is a clear failure)
3. Make technical innovation - very valuable and the effect on the price comes quickly, but not steady. (I don`t recall such think in Karma ecosystem. Maybe someday the sidechain will fulfill this gap, but I see this to far ahead)
4. Do real integration with other services, sites, merchants, etc. - very difficult, time consuming and not exactly returning steady value and effect on awareness and price. (I am not sure if Karma has such integration)
5. Build real projects - very difficult and time consuming (Several coins has this and the value is big. Karma still have one big project with good potential and someday maybe it will bring value)
6. Make coin to be taken as equal and even better than fiat. (No one did it. Karma is struggling to achieve this and maybe it will happen in several years).

I am sharing my thoughts on this, because now I have an offer to sell my Karmashare wallets. It is good for me and I find them useless to me at this point, cause I don`t see how I will benefit from them anytime soon. But in order to make a proper decision, I would like somebody from team to share his thoughts on the next moves. Some kind of check list. I know it is the API and Android wallet, but then what? What bought me for Karma was the vision of kosmost about development of successful projects for Karmashares and the PoC model. The PoC model is not available anymore. Projects are down except lill and I am not sure where it will go from now on. So all the things I have believed in are gone. I definitely don`t believe that going to Philippines or Malaysia or whatsoever eastern country should be paid attention at all before making strong first 5 and return clear results. I don`t share your vision about that. Also, don`t be angry at me, but it seems to me that you are not the persons you were before, which is normal. Everybody changes into the face of failure and new challenges. And no one wants to start from scratch again and again. Or should I say I don`t want to. But again these are just my thoughts. I don`t want to wait for I don`t know how many years to justify my investment in coins, shares, ideas and time. So, if you have time, please write down something about your future plans. It will be valuable to me, cause I have to tell nearly 30 miners and small investors that I will not follow their interest in Karma anymore. They are grown people and will cope with it. Thank you.

[TheLittleDuke]

Has anyone validated that the LLC is real?

Should be able to see that from the Secretary of State website.

All I see is that its "planned" or in process -- which is suspicious since all it takes is one day to file.

Hi, You should validate it.

Everything is transparent so far, so you just need to read. our words are as good as yours, so we cannot condense everything to your own satisfaction. You have to find it out for yourself and decide. Like you everyone here started somewhere, and for me seeing kos has done things with integrity, I decided to stay and try to help.

Oh I did!  I found the Wyoming registration.  What I am waiting to see is the legal basis for this not being considered a security per the SEC :-)

Because if you have a legal opinion on that then I'm investing bigtime!

If its just wishful thinking then you're tempting fate...

Please start here: http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,193.msg728.html

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

[ryannguyen18]

Check out and share your ideas
http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,608.0.html

confirmed...link is working....

[clayop]

I see many great suggestions here, yes it is really enjoying. But we still don't have the white paper, which entails visions and the roadmap of Karma. kosmost, when we will get the white paper? Any ETA?

[Alphi]

What disruption are you avoiding? Devs are willing to be paid between 1BTC up for every single back-end software karma and karmashares need. Do you plan in selling 10BTC worth of Karma a day? I think not? So selling some karma slowly over a period of 24 hours to say, accumulate 0.5BTC a day, will not disrupt the market, in fact no one would even notice, yet in a month you'll have 15BTC's of funding available. Yes even at these bottom prices, 0.5 BTC worth of Karma is not disruptive. Lack of software support for Karma and Karmashares projects are what I would call disruptive.

If you have done that over the months that passed say APRIL to AUGUST you should have at least 75BTC "warchest". There are so many Devs but they need payment, if we can pay them well, we would not lack anything.

Check your team, who talks only and who works. You may be hurting them unintentionally.

if a proper bounty system, a stability fund and a proper voting system were set up then most of the issues we have today could have been avoided.

first example... (similar to what you said) if a small portion of the Karma fund (say one or two billion) was moved into a stability fund then some of it could have been sold into BTC when Karm was at 300 litoshi. some of those BTC could have been used to pay devs and some could have been used to buy up cheap karma in times like these, thus putting more upward pressure on the price.. so win win all round.. anyone who works in software development or computer hardware knows what a Buffer is and that is exactly what Karma needs.... no buffer = bad Karma.

I note that, at the time this is what I advised Karmashares to do and it is what I also did with my own coins. I am better off now because I followed my own advice hence why I am not complaining about the price.

second example.. if there were a clear voting process in place for Karmashares holders then those people who do not own Karmashares would have to shut up and those who do own karmashares would have a fair say in how things are being run. Without a mechanism for allowing people to have their say based on how much they have at stake, you are simply inviting people with little or no financial interest to shout as loud as they can so they can get their own way. this is bad Karma.

third example.. have a look at sites Airtasker and Freelancer.com.. both have models which are ideal for crypto currency. with all the crypto coins out there it is absolutely amazing to me that a proper bounty system has not been set up to cater to all of them.. each and every crypto coin (including karma) has the problem of how to get people to complete the small day to day operation and maintenance tasks and they are all doing it with the equivalent of pen and paper (i.e. manually typing in forums) and this is the digital age. once you set up an "ebay" style site for small jobs within the Karma community it is trivial to extend that to support every other coin that is out there and to other crypto based projects. If you set up a site like this using Karma as the backbone currency and then allowing people to cash out in Karm (by default) or BTC then you have a real business working on top of the karma network.. this is very good Karma.

this is a golden opportunity for anyone who wants it.

none of the suggestions I have made are disruptive to the market none of them require a herculean effort to achieve... in fact I would argue very strongly that taking no action on all 3 has done more harm to the market than the current price would seem to bear that out.

So karmashares and Karma leaders please continue to ignore my advice.. I do not mind.. I will continue to buy up the cheap coins and work on my projects until you guys decide to stop chasing pies in the sky for a brief moment and take the necessary steps to build your projects on solid foundations.

right now I am reminded of that old biblical tale.. the tower of babel...

watch this video for a bit of comic relief
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D97eg3oLMVs


PS
I think its time for me to take a small break from arguing the toss like I usually do when I have spent way too much time making contributions that later go unheeded.

good luck to everyone..  karma wont die even if one or two people fail to achieve their stated ambitions.. we are a community and a community only dies when its purpose does... so try not to get too emotional and try not to panic ... and above all don't rely on other people to do everything.. people fail.. the only person you can depend on to get things done is yourself..

[easteagle13]

As I have mentioned before:

To address the need of those who cannot seem to find their way on the info they need about KARMA and KARMASHARES related topic, I will be building a simple site (almost like a KARMA for dummies), because it is what my capacity can do. A simple one.

There i would incorporate a KARMA BOUNTIES page, where all the needed works related to our community(KARMA) and their corresponding bounties will be made available to anyone. Someone can apply for a bounty by clicking a link, entering his intent, his proof of capacity(jobs done before) and his karma address.

This way every job will be easily traceable whether if someone is already working on it or not and how much is the bounty receivable from a specific work.

The first bounties are:

1. Translations, some of which are still ongoing. We have 5,650,000 Karma for that.
2. Facebook recruitment bounties, as you can see i updated that thread too http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,535.msg3671.html#msg3671
3. API development
4. Mobile device wallets (Android, IOs, Win)
5. Karmashares share explorer
6. SMS based non-smart phone app to enable KARMA transactions

As I have mentioned on the thread I will be adding another 10Million of my own coins for the bounties prize. So this post is a pre announcement of sort to make you aware that you can donate too when the site is up, so we can get things going.

Please remember that, the site will be aimed for the general mass so the over all look and feel will be geared to the ease of use and understanding rather than catering to technically inclined people, such as many of us here. And I am a lousy web designer too, so if you can throw some codes of CSS or PHP to help beautify the site later, you are more than welcome to do so.

The first request I will make, is for anyone who knows how we can automate payment for FB recruitment actions.(p4r4m0unt, ptman, learminer, socoban, Alphi, altcoingood, please help)

It should go similar to stellar coin sign up page. Simple and Automated. If you want to know what I am saying, kindly check stellar.org and if the programmers here can give me the codes to make the same thing happen in our Karma FB recruitment page, please do so.

All bounties will be listed there. All donations will have an amount and credited to the giver on the bounty page. So I hope you will share some coins when the page is up and get things moving instead of wishing them move.

Thanks. I will be busy making some of the initial pages, so please don't let anyone feel alone here. let us take karma where it should be.

[kosmost]

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Apologies. I will paste the information here:

As a follow-up to this reddit post I've an attorney looking over the state and federal laws regarding securities registration, notably the following section of the Securities chapter of the Wyoming state CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE (Title 1)

(F) If the offering is of stock or shares (other than preferred stock or shares) and except as otherwise required by law, the securities have voting rights at least equal to the securities of each of the issuer's outstanding classes of stock or shares (other than preferred stock or shares), with respect to the number of votes per share and the right to vote on the same general corporate decisions;

from: http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/statutes.aspx?file=titles/Title17/T17CH4.htm
17-4-114. Exemptions from registration and literature filing requirements.

Although we require additional legal counsel to verify this (via Karmashares LLC), basically it is presumed to state that we would need to offer voting rights to our members to manage the LLC ("the right to vote on the same general corporate decisions")

Our members (owners) all have voting rights and will all participate in the management of the LLC through voting, so this may not affect us.

We're likely to have been doing it the right way all along. But, again, we will seek additional and more thorough legal counsel regarding this.

-------------------

Another interesting reference:

The term “security” is broadly defined to include the expected stocks, bonds, etc., but also includes interests in pyramid sales schemes and even interests in the development of citrus orchards. The latter two examples are securities because they are “investment contracts”.

In 1946, the U.S. Supreme Court held in SEC v W.J. Howey Co. (328 U.S. 293) that an investment in a transaction or a scheme where a person invests his money in a common enterprise and is led to expect profits solely from the efforts of others is an investment contract, and therefore, a security. This test has been since used and interpreted extensively by the courts. It is this test that a lawyer should use when determining whether an interest in a limited partnership, general partnership, limited liability partnership or a limited liability company is a security.

The Howey test can be summarized as follows: passive investments, where investors do not have any decision-making power and just invest their money, are securities; whereas investments made by the principals, who are actively involved in the management of the enterprise, are not securities. So, limited partnership interests are generally securities because limited partners rely on the general partners to manage the partnership, unless they preserve some veto power, in which case the “investment contract” test would not be met.
...

If the LLC is member-managed, then each member is involved in management of the enterprise and has decision-making powers, and therefore their interests would generally not be securities. On the other hand, if the LLC is manager-managed, then members are just passive investors, and their interests are likely to be securities.

more at http://www.businesslawpost.com/2010/06/are-lp-gp-llp-and-llc-interests.html

---------------------

Further, there is an online book, "WHEN LLC INTERESTS ARE SECURITIES" (with a focus on Oregon case precedents, but still relevant)

http://law7555.com/books/articles/WhenAreLLCInterestsaSecurity.pdf

page 7:

LLC interests do not appear in the definition of the federal securities laws, nor in the securities law definitions of Oregon and most other states.

(also see page 8 & 9)

Members of a manager-managed LLC are more likely to be passive investors in
need of the protections afforded by the federal securities laws. By the same
token, members of member-managed LLCs who are able to actively participate in
the management affairs of the entity are less likely to need such protections. But
even these characteristics may differ based on the economic realities and facts of
each case, making it difficult to establish bright line rules in this area.

However,

With respect to the assignment of an LLC interest, the resale of the right to share in profits
without the transfer of the right to participate in management could well mean
that the assignment falls within the securities laws even though the original sale
of the LLC interest did not.

------------------------

hope this helps, and my apologies for the inconvenience

[kosmost]

I see many great suggestions here, yes it is really enjoying. But we still don't have the white paper, which entails visions and the roadmap of Karma. kosmost, when we will get the white paper? Any ETA?

The one dev that I know could implement something like it, Hiro (our X11 dev), is no longer responding. He's also not responding in his own community (Hirocoin). Not sure what's up, but it seems common in crypto.

It's difficult to complete the whitepaper and confirm 100% that we can do what's in it if he's not responding. Our HR person and community moderator who were tasked with finding resources are also MIA (the former since day 1, actually)

Before we release something that says "the sidechain will be this" we want to be sure 100% that it can be done. Without proper feedback it's not easy.

[easteagle13]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

[crocko]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

like what ?

[crocko]

Hi folks !

I don't want to read 200+ pages, can somebody explain me what is WRONG with KARM ?
Why KARM touched "sub-zero temperatures" ?
Why there is no buy order on BTC market from Mintpal !

[ShawnLeary]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346

This is the next evolution in crypto.  Please consider this for Karma's future survival.  That's all the time I have to just drop this here or I would explain more.  This is what I proposed back here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8304198#msg8304198 It's now called SuperNET.

Bests!

SL

[p4r4m0un7]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

It is good to hear. I`ve already sold my shares wallets, as I`ve already mansion. Without a PoC model I don`t see any good reason for me to keep coins without seeing positive trend on exchange. Of course I am doing it with keeping in mind that hurting the price will also hurt my investment, so I am doing it slowly. When I am on the half way I will stop to wait until it is revealed what is behind the door. I hope it is good. 

[Bierworst]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

It is good to hear. I`ve already sold my shares wallets, as I`ve already mansion. Without a PoC model I don`t see any good reason for me to keep coins without seeing positive trend on exchange. Of course I am doing it with keeping in mind that hurting the price will also hurt my investment, so I am doing it slowly. When I am on the half way I will stop to wait until it is revealed what is behind the door. I hope it is good. 

How much do you have left to go till halfway

[KarmaKaguy]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

It is good to hear. I`ve already sold my shares wallets, as I`ve already mansion. Without a PoC model I don`t see any good reason for me to keep coins without seeing positive trend on exchange. Of course I am doing it with keeping in mind that hurting the price will also hurt my investment, so I am doing it slowly. When I am on the half way I will stop to wait until it is revealed what is behind the door. I hope it is good. 

p4r4m0un7,
there are no plans to get rid of the poc model. We are currently discussing to increase the holding time and amount. Lill will be realized. But ok, good luck for you.

[easteagle13]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

It is good to hear. I`ve already sold my shares wallets, as I`ve already mansion. Without a PoC model I don`t see any good reason for me to keep coins without seeing positive trend on exchange. Of course I am doing it with keeping in mind that hurting the price will also hurt my investment, so I am doing it slowly. When I am on the half way I will stop to wait until it is revealed what is behind the door. I hope it is good. 

If only the people here would think about the deep implication of why a 2.5Million dollar deal was not "eagerly" or "profusely sought" they can get a hint that a bigger and better plan is waiting ahead. And why would kos does not worry about exchanges' falling price, because with the plans ahead the price of Karma at the moment is nowhere near of any importance.

We would share the plans with you when all details are ironed out. GO karma!

-east

[easteagle13]

To those who are selling their coins below the fair market price on the exchanges atm...I suggest you think it over.

The team is preparing something revolutionary, you may be pleasantly surprised.


-east

It is good to hear. I`ve already sold my shares wallets, as I`ve already mansion. Without a PoC model I don`t see any good reason for me to keep coins without seeing positive trend on exchange. Of course I am doing it with keeping in mind that hurting the price will also hurt my investment, so I am doing it slowly. When I am on the half way I will stop to wait until it is revealed what is behind the door. I hope it is good. 

p4r4m0un7,
there are no plans to get rid of the poc model. We are currently discussing to increase the holding time and amount. Lill will be realized. But ok, good luck for you.

yes Karma is right it is not removed it is being considered for revision only.

[mouseman]

Yeah Shawn, I'm starting to see more and more positive buzz on this around the forums.
Thanks for contacting James as well as clarifying things with him several weeks ago (ahead of the cover you were).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346

This is the next evolution in crypto.  Please consider this for Karma's future survival.  That's all the time I have to just drop this here or I would explain more.  This is what I proposed back here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8304198#msg8304198 It's now called SuperNET.

Bests!

SL

[easteagle13]

Yeah Shawn, I'm starting to see more and more positive buzz on this around the forums.
Thanks for contacting James as well as clarifying things with him several weeks ago (ahead of the cover you were).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346

This is the next evolution in crypto.  Please consider this for Karma's future survival.  That's all the time I have to just drop this here or I would explain more.  This is what I proposed back here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8304198#msg8304198 It's now called SuperNET.

Bests!

SL

mouseman can you please do whatever is needed regarding this option for Karma?