[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[romjpn]

Oh you guys still debating over changing the digging rules ?

As an investor, I'd like a fair deal (off exchange transaction with Doog ?) with the digger. Both good from him (selling clams at a fixed price) and the community. But we can't force him and I don't know if Doog would have enough BTC.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

Ya I couldn't agree with this either because 2044 isn't a good year for me...

You aren't going to rob people of THEIR "paper wallet" Clamcoins in this community I don't think. Sry.

Go try to get Bitcoin to remove their block rewards. 

[smooth]

  c. some kind of decay in value of undug CLAMs over time

This already exists. If you dig and stake, your CLAMs increase by about 4% per month currently.

Assuming you have a sufficient number to actually stake, due to the lottery-style staking.

You can stake in a pool. I've been offering to stake for people at no fee whatsoever (in order to try to decentralize the network from the current situation where JD has the vast majority of the stake), which will generate reasonably consistent daily income.

[smooth]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

[DrkLvr_]

The majority so far want to leave it as is and I respect that and will even rally behind it. There is clearly a lot of passion in the community, a little discontent but not much. So i'll keep trying to come up with ideas and present them here for discussion as a healthy community should. If anything I think this brings together and more tight-knit than before. Thanks for the feedback everyone and keep it coming.  Even if you're against an idea generally but see value in a certain aspect of it.

Smooth thanks for mentioning your service, I will be taking advantage of that in future. Also I am against the idea of off-site deals with this digger unless they are handled professionally and inclusive of any other wallets in his possession. You would not want to hand over 500 BTC and have the guy immediately start digging on another wallet, just as massive as the first.

[Northstar]

Hi folks, I'd like to mention a couple of things on the subject of the digger and the future of CLAM that I feel are important and it seems are being left out (I tried to read back as far as I can and didn't find some of this stuff mentioned, forgive me if I am mistaken).

By the way, some of you may know me as "Fido" on JD, this here is an old account I made back in the day...

One fundamental aspect of CLAM is that it was well known from the very get-go that there were 3,208,032 sets of ~4.6 CLAM distributed to BTC LTC and DOGE addresses from the very beginning, making the total potential pre-staking supply of CLAM around 15 million, right away. The JD community got used to the slow "roll out" of clams initially, during the course of the first year or so, and got complacent with their trading and position placement. Basically, y'all got used to there being a total supply of around ~200-300K clams in circulation, plus that much more due to ongoing staking, and were basing your trading, betting, and all the other fun stuff you can do with CLAMS on that math I.E the community got complacent.
Also on that note, any reasonable investor/participant in the CLAM community could have and should have deduced that from the very get-go, a lot of the addresses that clams were sent to during the distro, were likely to have been mostly on exchanges, gambling sites, etc. We also know how difficult it is to get private keys for addy's on such places, and we can also assume that a lot of people would simply forget about a lot of these addresses, never find out about CLAM, or any number of other issues that would prevent them from ever claiming their CLAMS. Which means that all of these addy's would remain in the hands of the exchanges, who would have an easy method of claiming said CLAMS, making them the potential whales in the room. I know I came to these conclusions early on when gauging whether I should involve myself with CLAMS, and based on these factors, I decided that my CLAM positions would be limited to short or medium term holdings, until more of the potential CLAM supply becomes ACTUAL and this large uncertainty is removed.
What I am saying is, along comes the Digger, and a lot of people are crying foul now because their holdings' value is plummeting. I am not sure why they are surprised, this is something that should have been obvious that has a large potential of happening. My theorizing above is turning into reality, and it should come as no surprise. What's more, the digger is actually unloading a relatively SMALL part of all potential clams, and he isn't even dumping them on the markets en-masse. It could get a whole lot worse. Just look at the orderbook on the largest clam exchange Poloniex, it would take a dump of 188K clams to bring the price down to 5 satoshis. Yes, 5 satoshis!
So in this regard, I think BayAreaCoins is correct that a lot of the people who are crying foul now are the ones who are being inconvenienced by the digger, as a result of their own decision making. The digger's actions were to be expected, and I think everyone was hoping that something like that wouldn't happen, but at the same time shouldn't be surprised.


Another point that I think we ought to consider is the fact that CLAM's hallmark feature was the attempt at FAIR distribution, and this is where I make an honorary mention of BeLiefs and his posts. I think we should never deviate from this cause. One argument that could be made in favor of limiting the digger is, to me at least it seems obvious that the digger represents a commercial entity, and I think Doog did mention that it is very likely that the majority of addresses used to be on some gambling site. I don't think large exchanges and other entities using other users' CLAMS by virtue of having access to them was the CLAM founders' idea of fairness. I think the point was for average joe's to have an equal and fair chance to access to these coins. So perhaps the most fair thing to do would be to somehow limit large commercial entities from profiting at the expense of average Joe's? But how do we distinguish from clams that are being dug up by exchanges and gambling sites from clams that re being honestly claimed by individuals? Is such method even possible? I doubt it, but I will let the experts chime in on this one, such as Doog and the clam founders.

Finally, I think the fundamental problem with CLAM value right now boils down to this: there simply isn't enough demand to absorb potential dumps by large players such as the digger. 76% of all clams are invested in JD, with another who knows how many being held in deposit for gambling. I've always said it, as much as I trust Dooglus, we need to diversify, and I even threw around the idea to some members for creating a good Poker site based on clams. God forbid something were to happen to Doog, or the legal climate in Canada, and the site goes down. We need to expand the markets where clams can be used, so that there is enough demand for all 15 million clams distributed, so we wouldn't even have to worry about that.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that I myself have CLAM holdings and while a high value is obviously in my financial interest, I don't want that to happen at the expense of sacrificing the core values that made this coin acceptable to many. Money IS NOT EVERYHING. From my experience in business, I have come to realize that money always follows good business practices, staying true to one self and to the customer base.
I am still not certain as to the proper course of action here, other than my idea that large institutions with access to CLAM addy's don't represent the intention of this coin and there could be a case made for limiting them, but again, I am not sure how this could be implemented in practice. I hope I am not repeating anyone else here, and thanks for considering my points. Comments by everyone will be much appreciated!

-Fido

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

or, "hear! hear!", as the case may be

[gregor12]

I would just disable the digging part. What got me into this coin is JD, JD also give this coin value, without it its worthless.
Without JD I would sell them as soon as I would get my hands on them (as most of the ppl probably would).

[AltcoinScamfinder]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

+ Infinity. Messing with specs is a sure way to kill a coin. Clam will come back sooner or later as people gamble and need clam to bet. If an uptrend starts (which it may have already) it's almost self fueling as per definition the clam network of gambling sites will siphon coin from the market and drive price.

[chilly2k]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

+ Infinity. Messing with specs is a sure way to kill a coin. Clam will come back sooner or later as people gamble and need clam to bet. If an uptrend starts (which it may have already) it's almost self fueling as per definition the clam network of gambling sites will siphon coin from the market and drive price.

 
  Agree also....   And don't be to concerned about the price as long as the digger continues.   Enjoy the rise, but don't expect it.  Once he's done we'll be back to business.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

or, "hear! hear!", as the case may be

[andulolika]

Uid 18 & 442 sale thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1242075.0 10% discount if you pay with clam.

[romjpn]

Hi folks, I'd like to mention a couple of things on the subject of the digger and the future of CLAM that I feel are important and it seems are being left out (I tried to read back as far as I can and didn't find some of this stuff mentioned, forgive me if I am mistaken).

By the way, some of you may know me as "Fido" on JD, this here is an old account I made back in the day...


[...]

Finally, I think the fundamental problem with CLAM value right now boils down to this: there simply isn't enough demand to absorb potential dumps by large players such as the digger. 76% of all clams are invested in JD, with another who knows how many being held in deposit for gambling. I've always said it, as much as I trust Dooglus, we need to diversify, and I even threw around the idea to some members for creating a good Poker site based on clams. God forbid something were to happen to Doog, or the legal climate in Canada, and the site goes down. We need to expand the markets where clams can be used, so that there is enough demand for all 15 million clams distributed, so we wouldn't even have to worry about that.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that I myself have CLAM holdings and while a high value is obviously in my financial interest, I don't want that to happen at the expense of sacrificing the core values that made this coin acceptable to many. Money IS NOT EVERYHING. From my experience in business, I have come to realize that money always follows good business practices, staying true to one self and to the customer base.
I am still not certain as to the proper course of action here, other than my idea that large institutions with access to CLAM addy's don't represent the intention of this coin and there could be a case made for limiting them, but again, I am not sure how this could be implemented in practice. I hope I am not repeating anyone else here, and thanks for considering my points. Comments by everyone will be much appreciated!

-Fido

I agree with you. That was a risk.

But I still don't understand why the digger didn't try to do something else than mindlessly dumping on exchanges.
We need to stay strong, hold, sink with the ship . And then maybe CLAM will make a come back.

[debuni]

Is there a way to claim CLAM without sync the whole chain and without giving private keys to someone buying addresses?

Thanks.

[SuperClam]

Is there a way to claim CLAM without sync the whole chain and without giving private keys to someone buying addresses?
Thanks.

The chain must only be sync'd past block ~10,000.

Cheers~

[doothewop]

Is there a way to claim CLAM without sync the whole chain and without giving private keys to someone buying addresses?

you can easily do so on just-dice

[dooglus]

There have been a lot of posts since I posted last, so I'll answer a bunch at once:

Maybe that's the whole point. It could be someone who hates altcoins in general or CLAM in particular.

You have talk to him? I think if people will offer him a 300-400 btc wall on polo maybe he will take it.

I don't know who he is. If I have talked to him, I didn't know it was him.

I don't like the idea of offering a wall. Why pay him 300-400 BTC for his remaining CLAMs if we can pay him less (by NOT putting a wall on polo and letting the price find its own level)?

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

So you would be in favour of putting it to the vote I presume?

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Right. I'm guilty of being sloppy with the terms. When I talk about "digging" I generally mean the act of moving initial-distribution CLAMs for the first time, rather than the act of importing an old wallet into your CLAM client. That's because importing old wallets is not detectable - nothing shows up on the CLAM network until you stake or spend your dug up CLAMs. So the client would need to be modified to interpret unmoved distribution CLAMs differently - either value them lower, or ignore them completely.

Please don't do this Dooglus.  It will forever make clam nothing more than a token for JD.  While some argue that it is already that, at least it has the possibility to become more.

Are you saying "please don't stop digging" or "please don't let the community vote to decide what to do about digging"?

Those are two very different things.

Hello ClamCoin members, i had questions about spec.

1.  Confirms received?
2.  Confirms rewards?
3.  Minimum age till mature?
4.  Block target interval?
5   Max coin cap?

I don't know if I understand your questions, but I'll try:

1) the network targets one block per minute

2) each block reward is 1 CLAM plus any transaction fees

3) newly staked blocks take 500 blocks to mature; the default client won't attempt to spend them until they have 510 confirmations; other transactions take 4 hours to 'mature' such that their outputs can be used to stake

4) see 1; I guess I didn't understand your first question

5) see 2; there's no limit, since 1 CLAM is staked each minute on average

IMO a), b), e) can be voted right now,
c) , d) also can be voted, but if choosen - specification and detalisation could be done later via additional voting.
So my suggestion is to make voting as soon as possible. Can't see my CLAM holdings becomes nothing. So why we need waste time  preparing complicated solution if it even might not be choosen by community?

Good point. We could start voting immediately. But there seems to be some dispute as to whether it's legitimate to have the community decide CLAM's future or not. So before we start voting, we need to decide whether we're going to even have a vote... I've no idea how we make such a decision. Maybe we should vote on it?...

One fundamental aspect of CLAM is that it was well known from the very get-go [...]

It's true. We knew from the outset that this was a risk. We also knew from the outset that having a "lottery" style staking system (block rewards 'randomly' between 0.1 and 1000 CLAMs) was probably gameable. When it became clear that it was being gamed, the rules were changed to remove the lottery system. That was before JD started using CLAM, but it happened. The CLAM rules have been changed several times already in reaction to observations. It's not like the current ruleset is somehow untouchable. It's just the current ruleset.

Previous changes have been handed down to us by the CLAM developers with little to no consultation with the larger community, and certainly no voting.

I understand that quite a large percentage of the community thinks we should leave digging just as it is now. If that's the most widespread opinion (modulo CLAM holdings) then that's what a vote would result in happening.

Is there anyone who thinks we should leave digging just as it is now even if the majority of CLAM holders want it to be changed? ie. is there anyone who doesn't want this put to a vote?

Is there a way to claim CLAM without sync the whole chain and without giving private keys to someone buying addresses?

you can easily do so on just-dice

And on clamchecker.com. Last I heard they were paying 0.05 BTC per private key, and 0.02 BTC to whoever referred you there. I'm not sure if they have a policy against referring yourself, but if not then you can get 0.07 BTC per private key, or 0.00151993 BTC per CLAM. That's currently a little below the market price, but worth bearing in mind.

[o_dima]

...So before we start voting, we need to decide whether we're going to even have a vote... I've no idea how we make such a decision. Maybe we should vote on it?...

So the best way to find out is to make simple voting in clam-client and on JD:
a) Leave all as it is. I.e. community has no rights to decide any changes to CLAM evolution.
b) Community has rights to decide future of CLAM by voting (even all fundamental things like digging reward or block reward)

And the thing is that digger also will be able to vote. And his vote could be very significant.

[kunac]

Please hurry up with voting but I think whoever is on Just-Dice with his own coins is for stopping the digs. Dooglus these is ridiculous. You should protect your users and investors.