[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[NUFCrichard]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

[DrkLvr_]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

I personally would be unhappy with that return proposed for 2076.  Messes with my plans.

[chriswen]

I really don't think there's any need to change the dig rewards. There's already a natural inflation that's built into the system that penalizes people who dig later on. If you dig earlier, you're going to be able to get more stake rewards. And that really adds up.

[o_dima]

  a. leave everything as it is
  b. disallow all digging
  c. some kind of decay in value of undug CLAMs over time
  d. CC's very complicated and involved change
  e. CC's quick and simple change

They'd need to be specified in detail...

IMO a), b), e) can be voted right now,
c) , d) also can be voted, but if choosen - specification and detalisation could be done later via additional voting.
So my suggestion is to make voting as soon as possible. Can't see my CLAM holdings becomes nothing. So why we need waste time  preparing complicated solution if it even might not be choosen by community?

[djhomeschool]

 c. some kind of decay in value of undug CLAMs over time

This already exists. If you dig and stake, your CLAMs increase by about 4% per month currently.

Assuming you have a sufficient number to actually stake, due to the lottery-style staking.

[romjpn]

Oh you guys still debating over changing the digging rules ?

As an investor, I'd like a fair deal (off exchange transaction with Doog ?) with the digger. Both good from him (selling clams at a fixed price) and the community. But we can't force him and I don't know if Doog would have enough BTC.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

Ya I couldn't agree with this either because 2044 isn't a good year for me...

You aren't going to rob people of THEIR "paper wallet" Clamcoins in this community I don't think. Sry.

Go try to get Bitcoin to remove their block rewards. 

[smooth]

  c. some kind of decay in value of undug CLAMs over time

This already exists. If you dig and stake, your CLAMs increase by about 4% per month currently.

Assuming you have a sufficient number to actually stake, due to the lottery-style staking.

You can stake in a pool. I've been offering to stake for people at no fee whatsoever (in order to try to decentralize the network from the current situation where JD has the vast majority of the stake), which will generate reasonably consistent daily income.

[smooth]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

[DrkLvr_]

The majority so far want to leave it as is and I respect that and will even rally behind it. There is clearly a lot of passion in the community, a little discontent but not much. So i'll keep trying to come up with ideas and present them here for discussion as a healthy community should. If anything I think this brings together and more tight-knit than before. Thanks for the feedback everyone and keep it coming.  Even if you're against an idea generally but see value in a certain aspect of it.

Smooth thanks for mentioning your service, I will be taking advantage of that in future. Also I am against the idea of off-site deals with this digger unless they are handled professionally and inclusive of any other wallets in his possession. You would not want to hand over 500 BTC and have the guy immediately start digging on another wallet, just as massive as the first.

[Northstar]

Hi folks, I'd like to mention a couple of things on the subject of the digger and the future of CLAM that I feel are important and it seems are being left out (I tried to read back as far as I can and didn't find some of this stuff mentioned, forgive me if I am mistaken).

By the way, some of you may know me as "Fido" on JD, this here is an old account I made back in the day...

One fundamental aspect of CLAM is that it was well known from the very get-go that there were 3,208,032 sets of ~4.6 CLAM distributed to BTC LTC and DOGE addresses from the very beginning, making the total potential pre-staking supply of CLAM around 15 million, right away. The JD community got used to the slow "roll out" of clams initially, during the course of the first year or so, and got complacent with their trading and position placement. Basically, y'all got used to there being a total supply of around ~200-300K clams in circulation, plus that much more due to ongoing staking, and were basing your trading, betting, and all the other fun stuff you can do with CLAMS on that math I.E the community got complacent.
Also on that note, any reasonable investor/participant in the CLAM community could have and should have deduced that from the very get-go, a lot of the addresses that clams were sent to during the distro, were likely to have been mostly on exchanges, gambling sites, etc. We also know how difficult it is to get private keys for addy's on such places, and we can also assume that a lot of people would simply forget about a lot of these addresses, never find out about CLAM, or any number of other issues that would prevent them from ever claiming their CLAMS. Which means that all of these addy's would remain in the hands of the exchanges, who would have an easy method of claiming said CLAMS, making them the potential whales in the room. I know I came to these conclusions early on when gauging whether I should involve myself with CLAMS, and based on these factors, I decided that my CLAM positions would be limited to short or medium term holdings, until more of the potential CLAM supply becomes ACTUAL and this large uncertainty is removed.
What I am saying is, along comes the Digger, and a lot of people are crying foul now because their holdings' value is plummeting. I am not sure why they are surprised, this is something that should have been obvious that has a large potential of happening. My theorizing above is turning into reality, and it should come as no surprise. What's more, the digger is actually unloading a relatively SMALL part of all potential clams, and he isn't even dumping them on the markets en-masse. It could get a whole lot worse. Just look at the orderbook on the largest clam exchange Poloniex, it would take a dump of 188K clams to bring the price down to 5 satoshis. Yes, 5 satoshis!
So in this regard, I think BayAreaCoins is correct that a lot of the people who are crying foul now are the ones who are being inconvenienced by the digger, as a result of their own decision making. The digger's actions were to be expected, and I think everyone was hoping that something like that wouldn't happen, but at the same time shouldn't be surprised.


Another point that I think we ought to consider is the fact that CLAM's hallmark feature was the attempt at FAIR distribution, and this is where I make an honorary mention of BeLiefs and his posts. I think we should never deviate from this cause. One argument that could be made in favor of limiting the digger is, to me at least it seems obvious that the digger represents a commercial entity, and I think Doog did mention that it is very likely that the majority of addresses used to be on some gambling site. I don't think large exchanges and other entities using other users' CLAMS by virtue of having access to them was the CLAM founders' idea of fairness. I think the point was for average joe's to have an equal and fair chance to access to these coins. So perhaps the most fair thing to do would be to somehow limit large commercial entities from profiting at the expense of average Joe's? But how do we distinguish from clams that are being dug up by exchanges and gambling sites from clams that re being honestly claimed by individuals? Is such method even possible? I doubt it, but I will let the experts chime in on this one, such as Doog and the clam founders.

Finally, I think the fundamental problem with CLAM value right now boils down to this: there simply isn't enough demand to absorb potential dumps by large players such as the digger. 76% of all clams are invested in JD, with another who knows how many being held in deposit for gambling. I've always said it, as much as I trust Dooglus, we need to diversify, and I even threw around the idea to some members for creating a good Poker site based on clams. God forbid something were to happen to Doog, or the legal climate in Canada, and the site goes down. We need to expand the markets where clams can be used, so that there is enough demand for all 15 million clams distributed, so we wouldn't even have to worry about that.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that I myself have CLAM holdings and while a high value is obviously in my financial interest, I don't want that to happen at the expense of sacrificing the core values that made this coin acceptable to many. Money IS NOT EVERYHING. From my experience in business, I have come to realize that money always follows good business practices, staying true to one self and to the customer base.
I am still not certain as to the proper course of action here, other than my idea that large institutions with access to CLAM addy's don't represent the intention of this coin and there could be a case made for limiting them, but again, I am not sure how this could be implemented in practice. I hope I am not repeating anyone else here, and thanks for considering my points. Comments by everyone will be much appreciated!

-Fido

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

or, "hear! hear!", as the case may be

[gregor12]

I would just disable the digging part. What got me into this coin is JD, JD also give this coin value, without it its worthless.
Without JD I would sell them as soon as I would get my hands on them (as most of the ppl probably would).

[AltcoinScamfinder]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

+ Infinity. Messing with specs is a sure way to kill a coin. Clam will come back sooner or later as people gamble and need clam to bet. If an uptrend starts (which it may have already) it's almost self fueling as per definition the clam network of gambling sites will siphon coin from the market and drive price.

[chilly2k]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

+ Infinity. Messing with specs is a sure way to kill a coin. Clam will come back sooner or later as people gamble and need clam to bet. If an uptrend starts (which it may have already) it's almost self fueling as per definition the clam network of gambling sites will siphon coin from the market and drive price.

 
  Agree also....   And don't be to concerned about the price as long as the digger continues.   Enjoy the rise, but don't expect it.  Once he's done we'll be back to business.

[BayAreaCoins]

As a Clam holder I would appreciate ending the digging process. Especially since it has been a while. People who are interested in Alt-coins probably have heard of clams by now. The end of digging could bring more interest and money into the coin.

Is it possible to prevent further digging though? Isn't digging just using a previously unused private key to move coins. So to prevent that we would have to remove the ability to send coins which were initially distributed but have yet to be moved?

Yes, and as a bitcoin holder I would like it if they stopped block rewards. We can stop staking for clams too.

The whole point of clams is that they were fairly distributed, just because some have taken longer than others to dig theirs, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to.

I agree that stopping the digs altogether is not the best solution.

What about a halving of the Dig rewards in May 2016 (2 years from the launch date) as indicated in the previous page?

We can expand this further that every subsequent halving would be twice the number of years as the previous one.

The dig rewards would look like this:


May 2014 - 4.6
May 2016 - 2.3
May 2020 - 1.15
May 2028 - 0.575
May 2044 - 0.2875
May 2076 - 0.14375
May 2140 - 0.071875

How about we take your coins and cut them in half next year instead.

Save CLAM by leaving it the fuck alone.

^ Second.

Here here!

or, "hear! hear!", as the case may be

[andulolika]

Uid 18 & 442 sale thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1242075.0 10% discount if you pay with clam.

[romjpn]

Hi folks, I'd like to mention a couple of things on the subject of the digger and the future of CLAM that I feel are important and it seems are being left out (I tried to read back as far as I can and didn't find some of this stuff mentioned, forgive me if I am mistaken).

By the way, some of you may know me as "Fido" on JD, this here is an old account I made back in the day...


[...]

Finally, I think the fundamental problem with CLAM value right now boils down to this: there simply isn't enough demand to absorb potential dumps by large players such as the digger. 76% of all clams are invested in JD, with another who knows how many being held in deposit for gambling. I've always said it, as much as I trust Dooglus, we need to diversify, and I even threw around the idea to some members for creating a good Poker site based on clams. God forbid something were to happen to Doog, or the legal climate in Canada, and the site goes down. We need to expand the markets where clams can be used, so that there is enough demand for all 15 million clams distributed, so we wouldn't even have to worry about that.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that I myself have CLAM holdings and while a high value is obviously in my financial interest, I don't want that to happen at the expense of sacrificing the core values that made this coin acceptable to many. Money IS NOT EVERYHING. From my experience in business, I have come to realize that money always follows good business practices, staying true to one self and to the customer base.
I am still not certain as to the proper course of action here, other than my idea that large institutions with access to CLAM addy's don't represent the intention of this coin and there could be a case made for limiting them, but again, I am not sure how this could be implemented in practice. I hope I am not repeating anyone else here, and thanks for considering my points. Comments by everyone will be much appreciated!

-Fido

I agree with you. That was a risk.

But I still don't understand why the digger didn't try to do something else than mindlessly dumping on exchanges.
We need to stay strong, hold, sink with the ship . And then maybe CLAM will make a come back.