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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013433 times)
msin
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May 06, 2015, 03:05:22 PM
 #23481

coinbase looks to me like the next mt. gox waiting to happen ... can't see why you guys always rally behind centralised organisations for your self-affirmation. coinbase will be hacked or corrupted in some way, will you be singing their praises for what that brings?

That's a lazy assumption. It's naive to think that BTC can be successful without help from "centralized" organizations. Coinbase is far more secure and intelligent than MTGox, it's not an anonymous international exchange.  They've also done far more than anyone here to help spread the adoption of BTC.  I can't see why you assume that a Bitcoin business is bad for Bitcoin.
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bambou
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May 06, 2015, 03:16:52 PM
 #23482

coinbase looks to me like the next mt. gox waiting to happen ... can't see why you guys always rally behind centralised organisations for your self-affirmation. coinbase will be hacked or corrupted in some way, will you be singing their praises for what that brings?

That's a lazy assumption. It's naive to think that BTC can be successful without help from "centralized" organizations. Coinbase is far more secure and intelligent than MTGox, it's not an anonymous international exchange.  They've also done far more than anyone here to help spread the adoption of BTC.  I can't see why you assume that a Bitcoin business is bad for Bitcoin.

Mtgox was legit until US special agent Carl Mark Force froze its US assets.

Coinbase, with the support of The Bank, and tens of millions in freshly printed money invested should be doing ok.
But they'll sell you to USG. A la canibalistic US corporative centralization. Again and again.

No wonder they'll follow gavin anytime, anywhere.. Roll Eyes

Non inultus premor
cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 03:21:45 PM
 #23483

you know what i'm thinking, right?

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May 06, 2015, 03:23:21 PM
 #23484

getting worse:

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May 06, 2015, 03:44:12 PM
 #23485

more Gavin:

http://gavinandresen.ninja/big-blocks-and-tor
Adrian-x
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May 06, 2015, 03:59:48 PM
 #23486


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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May 06, 2015, 04:02:28 PM
 #23487

Gloves starting to come off already. Suppose it was inevitable.

Quote
I think I first heard this objection to a larger maximum block size from Peter Todd, Chief Scientist of ViaCoin
cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 04:13:27 PM
 #23488


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

i put this video up last month where Gavin clearly telegraphs what is happening now.  he said he might have to throw his weight around which is what he is now doing.  and he has the credibility to do so.  but you have to back up around 2y to understand why he's doing this.  my conspiratorial mind says this is when gmax first hatched the idea of Blockstream and started working on gathering up most of the other core devs into the scheme.  since that time, nothing substantial has gotten done around the core protocol as solex pointed out above. i say it's b/c Blockstream stands to make billions if tx's are forced off MC to SC's.  it's also the time when gmax started hitting Reddit and the forum about the SC idea.  while Gavin has always been respectful and even slightly positive about SC's, i don't think he's fully on board with the idea and i've pointed out subtle examples of such.  and for good reasons as i, and you, have tried to articulate in many settings.  but my point is, this is the setting around which his blog posts are occurring;  it's now time to open up Bitcoin to the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w
hdbuck
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May 06, 2015, 04:20:10 PM
 #23489


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

i put this video up last month where Gavin clearly telegraphs what is happening now.  he said he might have to throw his weight around which is what he is now doing.  and he has the credibility to do so.  but you have to back up around 2y to understand why he's doing this.  my conspiratorial mind says this is when gmax first hatched the idea of Blockstream and started working on gathering up most of the other core devs into the scheme.  since that time, nothing substantial has gotten done around the core protocol as solex pointed out above. i say it's b/c Blockstream stands to make billions if tx's are forced off MC to SC's.  it's also the time when gmax started hitting Reddit and the forum about the SC idea.  while Gavin has always been respectful and even slightly positive about SC's, i don't think he's fully on board with the idea and i've pointed out subtle examples of such.  and for good reasons as i, and you, have tried to articulate in many settings.  but my point is, this is the setting around which his blog posts are occurring;  it's now time to open up Bitcoin to the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w



i fail to see what is preventing "the masses" to adopt bitcoin now.

How hard forking bitcoin would change this Huh
rocks
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May 06, 2015, 04:53:16 PM
 #23490

Re: The centralization discussion

I think it is important to remember that the most important aspect of bitcoin that needs to remain decentralized is mining (not pools), and that block size has no impact on miners since they already operate through pools.

For bitcoin to succeed, it needs to be used and managed directly by individuals. Not through 3rd party services. If bitcoin is primarily used through 3rd parties it will go the way of gold and eventually be co-opted and destroyed.

For bitcoin to be used directly P2P nodes need to be able to scale to much higher transaction throughput than VISA does today and maintain a massive history. I do not believe this is possible in a fully distributed manner. It will require centralization & specialization to the point where even companies such as coinbase may not maintain their own nodes but subscribe to node services run as cloud services.

But this is OK as long as mining stays distributed and there are some small number of public service nodes that monitor the full history and people trust to flag issues (think an MIT node, an EFF node, an Isle of Mann node, etc).

The distributed security mechanism of bitcoin (i.e. mining) was really the novel invention satoshi came up with. This distributed security is what bitcoin is. As long as it remains distributed we are OK. The other aspects (i.e. nodes) probably need to become more centralized if we want bitcoin to be used directly at a massive global scale.

cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 05:07:09 PM
 #23491


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

i put this video up last month where Gavin clearly telegraphs what is happening now.  he said he might have to throw his weight around which is what he is now doing.  and he has the credibility to do so.  but you have to back up around 2y to understand why he's doing this.  my conspiratorial mind says this is when gmax first hatched the idea of Blockstream and started working on gathering up most of the other core devs into the scheme.  since that time, nothing substantial has gotten done around the core protocol as solex pointed out above. i say it's b/c Blockstream stands to make billions if tx's are forced off MC to SC's.  it's also the time when gmax started hitting Reddit and the forum about the SC idea.  while Gavin has always been respectful and even slightly positive about SC's, i don't think he's fully on board with the idea and i've pointed out subtle examples of such.  and for good reasons as i, and you, have tried to articulate in many settings.  but my point is, this is the setting around which his blog posts are occurring;  it's now time to open up Bitcoin to the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w



i fail to see what is preventing "the masses" to adopt bitcoin now.

How hard forking bitcoin would change this Huh

my sense is that major financial institutions and payment processors understand that Bitcoin is not scalable at 1MB.  therefore, they don't feel particularly threatened; yet.  this leads to investors large and small similarly being skeptical.  by lifting the limit, or by taking a baby step to 20MB, suddenly Bitcoin can be shown to scale.  once that realization kicks in, i suspect you will see a flood of investor capital into the coin itself, driving the price up, and subsequently encouraging an entirely new round of investment in merchant providers and mining companies.
thezerg
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May 06, 2015, 05:10:32 PM
 #23492

Cypherdoc while I still am "for" sidechains from a technical perspective, I'm beginning to think that you are correct that sidechains (etc) presents a conflict of interest for some core devs.  Ideally one could make bitcoin the best that it can be and use sidechains for things that are impossible for bitcoin to do.  However resistance to the 20MB change seems to me like people want bitcoin to be reduced to Gold's role -- backing a lot of other layers (lightning network, changetip, certain sidechains) that are what is actually used.  This opens up space for these other layers to make money.

And so we will end up with the all the same issues with services we have today because these for-profit corporate backed layers will be taking their piece of the pie, limiting transactional freedom, and confiscating balances at the whim of TPTB.

My guess is that this blogging avalanche of Gavin's is basically his way of saying that he's going to fight this one "to the death".





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May 06, 2015, 05:13:19 PM
 #23493


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

i put this video up last month where Gavin clearly telegraphs what is happening now.  he said he might have to throw his weight around which is what he is now doing.  and he has the credibility to do so.  but you have to back up around 2y to understand why he's doing this.  my conspiratorial mind says this is when gmax first hatched the idea of Blockstream and started working on gathering up most of the other core devs into the scheme.  since that time, nothing substantial has gotten done around the core protocol as solex pointed out above. i say it's b/c Blockstream stands to make billions if tx's are forced off MC to SC's.  it's also the time when gmax started hitting Reddit and the forum about the SC idea.  while Gavin has always been respectful and even slightly positive about SC's, i don't think he's fully on board with the idea and i've pointed out subtle examples of such.  and for good reasons as i, and you, have tried to articulate in many settings.  but my point is, this is the setting around which his blog posts are occurring;  it's now time to open up Bitcoin to the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w



i fail to see what is preventing "the masses" to adopt bitcoin now.

How hard forking bitcoin would change this Huh

my sense is that major financial institutions and payment processors understand that Bitcoin is not scalable at 1MB.  therefore, they don't feel particularly threatened; yet.  this leads to investors large and small similarly being skeptical.  by lifting the limit, or by taking a baby step to 20MB, suddenly Bitcoin can be shown to scale.  once that realization kicks in, i suspect you will see a flood of investor capital into the coin itself, driving the price up, and subsequently encouraging an entirely new round of investment in merchant providers and mining companies.

I have come to understand that a lot of people drag their feet because they doubt the technical feasibility of the system. So yes, 20 MB blocks, or just the prospect of them, is bullish!

cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 05:33:56 PM
 #23494

$DJI catching down to the $DJT with $DJT about to go off the cliff.  get out the popcorn:

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May 06, 2015, 05:37:33 PM
 #23495

everything US going down now.  that should only mean one thing for Bitcoin, UP:



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May 06, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
 #23496

well, waddaya know.  i just plunked in GBTC into my TOS and got this!  $550/BTC!!!

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May 06, 2015, 05:45:24 PM
 #23497

with a $940 high  Grin

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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May 06, 2015, 06:28:03 PM
 #23498

Cypherdoc while I still am "for" sidechains from a technical perspective, I'm beginning to think that you are correct that sidechains (etc) presents a conflict of interest for some core devs.  Ideally one could make bitcoin the best that it can be and use sidechains for things that are impossible for bitcoin to do.  However resistance to the 20MB change seems to me like people want bitcoin to be reduced to Gold's role -- backing a lot of other layers (lightning network, changetip, certain sidechains) that are what is actually used.  This opens up space for these other layers to make money.

And so we will end up with the all the same issues with services we have today because these for-profit corporate backed layers will be taking their piece of the pie, limiting transactional freedom, and confiscating balances at the whim of TPTB.

My guess is that this blogging avalanche of Gavin's is basically his way of saying that he's going to fight this one "to the death".

I hope he does.  I very strongly advocated AGAINST ALL his previous proposals.
I'd have sold out of the fork and stayed on the 1mb chain until a better solution was made.
He answered all my concerns with this one.  I'm on board.

It does little enough and gives us room to develop the necessary pieces for getting further.

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May 06, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
 #23499

big, big trouble:

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May 06, 2015, 06:50:42 PM
 #23500

Added some diagrams which should greatly enhance understanding of the protocol:

https://github.com/justusranvier/rfc/blob/payment_code/bips/bip-pc01.mediawiki
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