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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805639 times)
cypherdoc
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May 08, 2015, 07:41:18 PM
 #23641

I'm not too worried about the blocksize debate now that I know even Peter Todd supports an increase "eventually." To me this says the first sign of actual delays and price impact will see all these guys change their tune.

I don't think it will change much, lots of resistance is routed in fear of what could happen, also based on subjective assertions.
There are legitimate concerns and efforts should be focused there.

Why we need to change now is to kill the FUD, so developers can work on the real issues.

i think the thing we all have to be worried about is the extent to which these anti-Gavin types are actually willing to let Bitcoin die.  i hate to consider that but seriously.  if you don't have much invested in the coin or somehow missed the train, or just simply don't believe it is setup properly, would $21M invested in your startup incentivize you to let Bitcoin die in favor of a new blockchain (SC)?  after all, they said in the whitepaper, Bitcoiners may be forced to migrate to a superiorly performing SC.
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Adrian-x
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May 08, 2015, 07:43:09 PM
 #23642

from gmax's response this morning:

"Thanks Matt; I was actually really confused by this sudden push with
not a word here or on Github--so much so that I responded on Reddit to
people pointing to commits in Gavin's personal repository saying they
were reading too much into it.

So please forgive me for the more than typical disorganization in this
message; I've been caught a bit flatfooted on this and I'm trying to
catch up. I'm juggling a fair amount of sudden pressure in my mailbox,
and trying to navigate complex discussions in about eight different
forums concurrently."


anyone who is even half aware of his surroundings could see that Gavin' proposal was coming.  wasn't i on this thread talking about this immediately after this video last month?:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w

but even way before then it was entirely clear that there was a schism developing btwn Gavin, who has been pushing for an even more radical progressive block size increase, and the rest of the Blockstream devs looking to continue capping at 1MB while at the same time pushing their version of SC's.  it was clear, to me at least, that he would have to pull rank at some point.  and that is not a bad thing; that is what leaders do.  he is the lead dev after all.

gmax is exhibiting typical behavior when someone suddenly finds their back up against the wall defending what clearly is a minority opinion.  "poor me, they suddenly sprung this upon me with absolutely no warning!"

It is a sad thing but as things go good developers stop doing good work and start being average PR managers.
Gmax accuses Gavin of not doing code development and so not taking a lead development role.

The irony is gmax is falling into the same trap, more of his time and energy is going into PR than is going into his strong suite.

Good leader don't manage people, people willingly follow there example.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Odalv
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May 08, 2015, 07:45:59 PM
 #23643


Limits the size of each value pushed while evaluating a a script (up to 520 bytes)
Limits the number of expensive operations in a script (up to 201 operations). All but pushs are considered expensive.

i need some definitions of the bolded terms:

value means BTC?
expensive means what?
pushs means what in this context?

1. :-)  value is not BTC.   It is value for script (sequence of bytes)  e.g. "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"  http://libbitcoin.dyne.org/doc/blockchain.html.

2. expensive for processor (script evaluator ... uses processor time/resource e.g. memory)

3. "push" is instruction(op_code) in script for processor.
tvbcof
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May 08, 2015, 07:47:31 PM
 #23644

...
but even way before then it was entirely clear that there was a schism developing btwn Gavin, who has been pushing for an even more radical progressive block size increase, and the rest of the Blockstream devs looking to continue capping at 1MB while at the same time pushing their version of SC's.  it was clear, to me at least, that he would have to pull rank at some point.  and that is not a bad thing; that is what leaders do.  he is the lead dev after all.
...

Couldn't happen to soon.  Hopefully Gavin (who I've suspected for some time as being not much more than Hearn's mouthpiece to the world if not worse) will siphon off a huge count of the lumpenbitcoiners who constitute the main problem in the ecosystem in my humble opinion.

I've sat tight on my stash for well over a year for economic reasons and would be happy to sit tight for another few years until it is widely understood what a smoking crater is at the end of Gavin's plans for Bitcoin.  In the interim I intend to capitalize handsomely.  Or try to.

In looking for Maxwell's stuff on reddit I ran across something supposedly by Gavin (though I have my doubts.)  For one thing, nobody who has any bitcoin in significant quantity should have only just become aware of UTXO issues, and it's beyond absurd to suggest that the 'principle scientist' would.  For two, UTXO has nearly zero to do with block size anyway so the lesson he supposedly drew from it ("That is a very good reason to oppose increasing the maximum block size.") is either hopelessly ignorant or a weasel move to get his bloatcoin system in place when a 'solution' to the 'problem' pops out of the ether.

To expand on my point about UTXO issues, a grand total of one user worldwide could create a problem with UTXO size if they put (a fairly technically trivial) amount of effort into doing so.  Conversely, the UTXO problem could be managed with much or perhaps most of the world's population as users if it were addressed at the system design level.  Satoshi seems to have made some feeble stabs at doing this (which is why there is even such a thing as UTXO) but a proper solution to the problem would pretty much require a dynamic global circulation involving periodic re-issues.  That is, nobody socking their stash into deep storage or if they do wish to do so they pay a tax of some sort upon retrieval.  That would make for a fine system for some use-cases actually.  I (and I presume Maxwell and company) would be happy to see and happy to use such a solution but I would like to see it as a sidechain.


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May 08, 2015, 07:51:35 PM
 #23645

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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May 08, 2015, 08:00:34 PM
 #23646

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

This was closer to Gavin's orginal suggestion too. The (an) algorithm isnt going to be perfect, but its going to be better than repeated hard forks (in that it may or may not require repeated hard forks). I'd prefer something that adjusts so we can have a little more time to as we scale up.
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May 08, 2015, 08:03:59 PM
 #23647

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

"max size"  have gone missing
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May 08, 2015, 08:15:04 PM
 #23648

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

always been quite found of this guy. Grin
so why not auto adjust?
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May 08, 2015, 08:36:20 PM
 #23649

from gmax's response this morning:

"Thanks Matt; I was actually really confused by this sudden push with
not a word here or on Github--so much so that I responded on Reddit to
people pointing to commits in Gavin's personal repository saying they
were reading too much into it.

So please forgive me for the more than typical disorganization in this
message; I've been caught a bit flatfooted on this and I'm trying to
catch up. I'm juggling a fair amount of sudden pressure in my mailbox,
and trying to navigate complex discussions in about eight different
forums concurrently."


anyone who is even half aware of his surroundings could see that Gavin' proposal was coming.  wasn't i on this thread talking about this immediately after this video last month?:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w

but even way before then it was entirely clear that there was a schism developing btwn Gavin, who has been pushing for an even more radical progressive block size increase, and the rest of the Blockstream devs looking to continue capping at 1MB while at the same time pushing their version of SC's.  it was clear, to me at least, that he would have to pull rank at some point.  and that is not a bad thing; that is what leaders do.  he is the lead dev after all.

gmax is exhibiting typical behavior when someone suddenly finds their back up against the wall defending what clearly is a minority opinion.  "poor me, they suddenly sprung this upon me with absolutely no warning!"

We have an interesting situation here where a majority of developers seem to be against the blocksize increase, but a clear large majority of users seem to support it.

If this is the case, bitcoin will likely go with what the majority of users prefer to do. The devs do not control it.

This is opposite BTW to our FED system. Think of the FED board of directors as the same as bitcoin developers. Only here the FED's BoD are able to assert their views on users against their will.

This blocksize debate demonstrates very clearly how the motivations of those in "charge" are often opposite to the needs of those not in charge. The US has ceased to do what the majority of it's users (the people) have wanted for a while. But Bitcoin is a true democracy, it will ignore it's developers, and follow a clear majority of users.
Peter R
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May 08, 2015, 08:45:22 PM
 #23650



^ Here's a chart that shows the historical blocksize growth along with the limits, the "block fullness," and some commentary on how the limits have changed in the past and may change in the future.

Credit to Solex for the 1MBCON Advisory System Status and DeathAndTaxes for digging up the GitHub commits that introduced the blocksize limits.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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May 08, 2015, 08:49:41 PM
 #23651

so why did the /u/blockchain_explorer account get deleted over on Reddit, vigorous 1MB defender?  he first popped up just a coupla days ago after Gavin's proposal?
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May 08, 2015, 08:52:03 PM
 #23652



^ Here's a chart that shows the historical blocksize growth along with the limits, the "block fullness," and some commentary on how the limits have changed in the past and may change in the future.

Credit to Solex for the 1MBCON Advisory System Status and DeathAndTaxes for digging up the GitHub commits that introduced the blocksize limits.

geez, looks to me like we'd have to cut Gavin's adoption time by half to avoid problems.
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May 08, 2015, 09:06:04 PM
 #23653

GBTC volume spiking.  closed @$49.  that's very good.
cypherdoc
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May 08, 2015, 09:07:05 PM
 #23654

dow up 275.. i guess dip is over

you're not safe until $DJT goes back up and sets new high which would invalidate the current non-confirmation. in the meantime, it's quite possible for the $DJI to go back up and set a new high but that by itself won't invalidate the non-confirmation.  in fact, that by itself would exacerbate it:

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May 08, 2015, 10:45:22 PM
 #23655



^ Here's a chart that shows the historical blocksize growth along with the limits, the "block fullness," and some commentary on how the limits have changed in the past and may change in the future.

Credit to Solex for the 1MBCON Advisory System Status and DeathAndTaxes for digging up the GitHub commits that introduced the blocksize limits.

Wow! Very informative graphic, Peter. This needs to be seen more widely.

20/20 hindsight is always easy, and we can see that three things went wrong.

Satoshi implemented the limit back-to-front i.e. it should have required consensus to renew it, not remove it:
If block-height < 123,456
     max-block-size = 1MB

He disappeared before he could use his authority to modify the change.

He did not expect it to become a sacred cow:




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May 08, 2015, 11:27:42 PM
 #23656



^ Here's a chart that shows the historical blocksize growth along with the limits, the "block fullness," and some commentary on how the limits have changed in the past and may change in the future.

Credit to Solex for the 1MBCON Advisory System Status and DeathAndTaxes for digging up the GitHub commits that introduced the blocksize limits.

Wow! Very informative graphic, Peter. This needs to be seen more widely.

20/20 hindsight is always easy, and we can see that three things went wrong.

Satoshi implemented the limit back-to-front i.e. it should have required consensus to renew it, not remove it:
If block-height < 123,456
     max-block-size = 1MB

He disappeared before he could use his authority to modify the change.

He did not expect it to become a sacred cow:



C'mon that's totally unfair to the majority of developers (again). It is not simply a 'sacred cow' and that totally over-simplifies the problem while casting negative aspersions against most of the developers.

These guys have worked themselves to the point of mental exhaustion in some cases to keep this thing scaling up to handle the transaction growth rate thus far and have made huge advances. They would all simply agree (ya know, a consensus) to raise the limit if it was such an obvious 'fix', it is not and there are no obvious fixes, that is just wishful thinking by the unthinking majority. Raising the limit is the last ditch 'suck it and see' hail mary pass when everything else has been optimised as much as possible ...

If the limit gets raised substantially above the technological improvements growth rate I'll be pulling the vast majority of my investment out because it is not going to be operating like we thought it would, i.e. it won't be a clearing and settlement digital gold network but a paypal2.0, fun internet googlesque reversable, traceable payments network

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May 08, 2015, 11:48:18 PM
 #23657

But if it can't handle lots of txns it won't be that either.  Limiting txns to 1MB is giving up b4 the match begins.  1mb is too small for even overlay settlement networks. The only way fwd is to put in the higher txn rates now encourage growth and work on scalability.  U need scarcity and intrinsic value to make a currency.  BTC intrinsic value IS its ease of worldwide cheap txns and large network.  Without that its no different than a unique poker chip or an alt coin.
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May 08, 2015, 11:49:33 PM
 #23658

C'mon that's totally unfair to the majority of developers (again). It is not simply a 'sacred cow' and that totally over-simplifies the problem while casting negative aspersions against most of the developers.

These guys have worked themselves to the point of mental exhaustion in some cases to keep this thing scaling up to handle the transaction growth rate thus far and have made huge advances. They would all simply agree (ya know, a consensus) to raise the limit if it was such an obvious 'fix', it is not and there are no obvious fixes, that is just wishful thinking by the unthinking majority. Raising the limit is the last ditch 'suck it and see' hail mary pass when everything else has been optimised as much as possible ...

If the limit gets raised substantially above the technological improvements growth rate I'll be pulling the vast majority of my investment out because it is not going to be operating like we thought it would, i.e. it won't be a clearing and settlement digital gold network but a paypal2.0, fun internet googlesque reversable, traceable payments network

You are expanding my criticism of the handling of this 1MB issue to a general criticism of the developers. I have nothing but admiration for what they have done for many years, but if it takes a bit of shock-value to get this one issue dealt with - then it is worth it, because ignoring it could undermine the benefit of years of dev work (by stalling the ecosystem and its network effect).

In August last year I attempted a good case for a 3MB limit, trying to buy time, but even this moderate increase found little favor.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709970.msg8129058#msg8129058
Since then,  the LN paper* has appeared, and there is even less reason for delay in buying time, because there is a very real chance that a high-volume layer can be built over Bitcoin while keeping main-chain usage to a minimum. Why won't the devs buy a few years?
(I note that ArcticMine who was active in the 1MB debate last year has given up on the argument and moved his investment into Monero. This problem is already forcing people away from Bitcoin and the limit is not yet impinging on user-experience).

I really hate conspiracy theories, and am not quite yet with JR on how there might be ulterior motives behind the scenes. But what else can be done to advance a solution?

*edit: Joseph Poon's and Thaddeus Dryja's paper

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May 09, 2015, 12:02:52 AM
 #23659

Quote
BTC intrinsic value IS its ease of worldwide cheap txns and large network.

Wrong, you could get that with Ripple. The utility value of bitcoin is decentralised, irreversible, permissionless settlement and clearing, (trust no-one consensus) ... like SWIFT but better. Bitcoin will get more valuable the less people can use it but want to, like any desirable scarce resource commodity. The demand already exists and the miner's are providing the secure commodity.

The days of people writing graffitti and spam into the blockchain ending will be the evidence that it is finally useful only as a monetary network, not some kind of toy ... who would use SWIFT to message banal profanities?

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May 09, 2015, 12:04:32 AM
 #23660

These guys have worked themselves to the point of mental exhaustion in some cases to keep this thing scaling up to handle the transaction growth rate thus far and have made huge advances. They would all simply agree (ya know, a consensus) to raise the limit if it was such an obvious 'fix', it is not and there are no obvious fixes, that is just wishful thinking by the unthinking majority. Raising the limit is the last ditch 'suck it and see' hail mary pass when everything else has been optimised as much as possible ...

If the limit gets raised substantially above the technological improvements growth rate I'll be pulling the vast majority of my investment out because it is not going to be operating like we thought it would, i.e. it won't be a clearing and settlement digital gold network but a paypal2.0, fun internet googlesque reversable, traceable payments network

You are doing the same thing you are accusing others of doing. There is no consensus or even an easy answer, whether Bitcoin should be a "clearing and settlement digital gold network" or a "payments network" (I don't think too many want it to be reversible and traceable but you are injecting that as a form of commentary). If there were an easy answer, it would already be accepted as consensus, but there isn't and it isn't.
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