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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803900 times)
TPTB_need_war
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May 19, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
 #24441

And this is a critical point. If you can move the worlds CPUs into your coin decentralized, you can beat Bitcoin because you can move more hardware value into your coin. Especially if you can give the mined morsels to be so small that no one sells and they instead circulate those morsels on a use-case that Bitcoin can't do.

+1

The monetization of the great masses is both intriguing and important for me. CKG PoP emission is one try. That fulfills the condition that the value received is too small to be sold, yet big enough to have ingame transactional value, and games (as all MMO social networks) can quickly achieve network effects which are very valuable.

The value of CK is $5,000 per player, which is more than the value of BTC per owner. Some MMO have more players than Bitcoin has owners. Combining these 2 would result in a virtual economy larger than Bitcoin, and having Monero as the ingame currency, with CKG, CKS, land and a host of other things as assets.

It seems reasonable, and afair TPTB have cracked down on exchanges for game currencies because they do realize this threat.

Is Monero ready to resist such crackdowns? Does it have decentralized exchanges? Can the authorities not track down IP addresses and make examples to discourage others from subverting a ban?

Might work.

My idea is an area that is more targeted to the market of those who need anonymity and thus might be more willing to fight. Not sure if game players want to pick an unnecessary fight with the government.

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May 19, 2015, 09:00:17 PM
 #24442

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

There'll be a new monero investments website soon as well, which presents the investment case in XMR without basing it on BTC, and also lists the options to buy it directly with fiat.

skimmed the current site but couldn't find any specifics on initial distribution or supply.
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May 19, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
 #24443

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

There'll be a new monero investments website soon as well, which presents the investment case in XMR without basing it on BTC, and also lists the options to buy it directly with fiat.

Yes, there will be. Monero will be $300k at the end of this year. :-) Do not forget to take your meds.
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May 19, 2015, 09:01:44 PM
 #24444

Sometimes I believe the central banks shooting themselves in the foot could do more for bitcoin than all the VC investment in the world. If they ever implemented a cash ban for real, there would be a significant effort to find a new cash-like mechanism, enter bitcoin.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-19/cashless-society

the disingenuous thing about that policy is that it is an attempt not to force consumers to buy things in the real economy, but to force them to speculate in assets like stocks and bonds so that the current holders (the financial elite) can dump to the masses at a higher top.

That and it enables the state to steal property, not just through negative real rates that comes from inflation, but also from negative nominal rates.

Forcing everyone off of cash and onto bank accounts with negative interest rates, starts to look an awful lot like illegal seizure of property and a 4th amendment violation. Not that that matters at all today.
TPTB_need_war
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May 19, 2015, 09:02:40 PM
 #24445

this is actually inspiring that all these divergent opinions still have the maturity and willingness to break bread together in the same room. i'm sure all their differing views were aired and hopefully some positive consensus will arise:



Thank you very much. It is the second pic I've seen of Szabo which reaffirms the first.

Zangelbert Bingledack
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May 19, 2015, 09:03:34 PM
 #24446

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

There'll be a new monero investments website soon as well, which presents the investment case in XMR without basing it on BTC, and also lists the options to buy it directly with fiat.

To be honest, that's probably the way to go for true altcoins (alt-ledgers, not spinoffs). If you take my arguments posted over the past few days on altcoins seriously, the conclusion seems to be either abandon the investment before it cools off (gets spun off or sidechained by Bitcoin) or aim for the "Hail Mary pass" from outside virgin investors and users. Note that near term I think Monero will rise against the other alts; I'm talking strictly long term here.

Even I, Mr. Bitcoin Maximalist, would invest in an altcoin if it looked like it would somehow be successfully pushed to a huge audience that was separate and much bigger than Bitcoin's community,* assuming it had utility. That would be because, in a very real sense, it would not be an altcoin at all. To those people, to that new population, it would be exactly what Bitcoin was to us. Sui generis. "The WWL." However, it would be a tough trick at this stage to get them to forget/ignore Bitcoin enough to make this dynamic work. Ripple can kind of do it even though everyone knows Bitcoin now, because their product (giving them the benefit of the doubt that their product is even a thing) is different enough. Add in the need for a track record and the hurdle is even higher.

*Extreme example to make the point: you find an alien planet that won't interface with Earth for many more decades/centuries and launch it there. What purpose would there be in referring to it as an "altcoin" anymore? It's the WWL. It's THE blockchain.
smooth
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May 19, 2015, 09:05:20 PM
 #24447

This isn't a moral criticism, but a practical one, as argued in the post. Stores of value can change, but this cannot be a fast process as that contravenes the very definition of "store of value." Not unless it absolutely has to happen (facing catastrophe), as I also mentioned.

Well, again, there is no fast process at work here. <0.1% of the store-of-value from gold, fiat, etc. has shifted to Bitcoin. In fact the real number considering all store-of-value asset classes is probably far less than 0.1% but that's an easy number to use. If 0.2% moves to some other cryptocoin next year that will still be an extremely slow process, but Bitcoin will likely be left behind at that point.

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

Many of Monero's new adopters/investors come from outside the Bitcoin community, though I'm not entirely sure it is for the right reasons. The most common is being vaguely aware of Bitcoin but feeling they missed it. That may be an indication of a problem with Bitcoin's speculative pumping being getting ahead of its (nearly non-existent) adoption. I question whether these are the right reasons because I saw a lot of the same thing happening in 2013 when people looked for cheaper altcoins (generally pure trash like LTC or worse) and got slaughtered.

Some (e.g. Krawitz) claim that the bigger the better and investment drives adoption, but I'm not sure about that. At some point it becomes too expensive, the fundamentals don't support it (or at least, don't appear to), that just scares people off, discouraging further adoption and encouraging (smart and dumb both) investment elsewhere.

Bitcoin investors really should hedge though. The logic of that is as about as close to infallible as you can get. Underweight if you like, but still hedge.

Peter R
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May 19, 2015, 09:06:30 PM
 #24448

And this is a critical point. If you can move the worlds CPUs into your coin decentralized, you can beat Bitcoin because you can move more hardware value into your coin. Especially if you can give the mined morsels to be so small that no one sells and they instead circulate those morsels on a use-case that Bitcoin can't do.

+1

This is exactly what 21 Inc. will be doing…adding bitcoin miners to devices like cellphones, thereby giving "mined morsels" to potentially millions of new devices.  I'm very excited to see how this plays out!

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
smooth
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May 19, 2015, 09:07:32 PM
 #24449

it would not be an altcoin at all

Well, there's a pretty decent argument that coins that share little to no code with Bitcoin and break significantly with its design principles with Bitcoin aren't really "altcoins" at all in the original sense (which was more like Bitcoin forks). That doesn't make them good technologies or good investments, but they're at least different. That's a start.


cypherdoc
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May 19, 2015, 09:08:35 PM
 #24450

And this is a critical point. If you can move the worlds CPUs into your coin decentralized, you can beat Bitcoin because you can move more hardware value into your coin. Especially if you can give the mined morsels to be so small that no one sells and they instead circulate those morsels on a use-case that Bitcoin can't do.

+1

This is exactly what 21 Inc. will be doing…adding bitcoin miners to devices like cellphones, thereby giving "mined morsels" to potentially millions of new devices.  I'm very excited to see how this plays out!


yeah, i thought of that too.

i think it's going to be a huge win.
rpietila
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May 19, 2015, 09:10:03 PM
 #24451

Not sure if game players want to pick an unnecessary fight with the government.

Sometimes I feel you should have some acid to relieve yourself of the irrational fear of government (it helps). You are the most government-fearing person that I know, and that is not fitting for an alpha-male. You should conduct your life such that the government anticipates how much they lose if they try to harass you, and leave you alone.

The game is not associated with any government, jurisdiction or law. It is just a game. Like playing Monopoly. It is your problem if you feel that the government has the right to infringe your playing a game. I don't give them such a right concerning mine.

The distasteful voice is because I have a distaste for government, and would rather not speak about it. I also seldom speak about shit that sticks to the sole of my shoe. And I don't lift my hand to remove it, same as I don't lift my hand to remove the government. But I don't touch it either.

rocks
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May 19, 2015, 09:10:16 PM
 #24452

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

There'll be a new monero investments website soon as well, which presents the investment case in XMR without basing it on BTC, and also lists the options to buy it directly with fiat.

Monero has lost ~90% of it's value vs. BTC since last September and doesn't seem to even be listed on cryptsy. Not exactly overtaking Bitcoin here.

The only difference I can see with it compared to Bitcoin is it offers decentralized and trustless mixing, as per these diagrams.






You can implement the exact same distributed and trustless mixing mechanisms in wallets that live on top of Bitcoin. Sorry but I see nothing innovative or unique here. Just a price pump.
TPTB_need_war
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May 19, 2015, 09:13:40 PM
 #24453

I don't disagree, but I have assumed the context here is basically Bitcoin investors "branching out" into some altcoins. One could make a somewhat valid criticism that this context is changing to small degree, the best examples being Ripple and Ethereum and maybe Dogecoin, where they are actively trying to source users and investors from outside the Bitcoin community (BitShares to an extent as well).

There'll be a new monero investments website soon as well, which presents the investment case in XMR without basing it on BTC, and also lists the options to buy it directly with fiat.

Yes, there will be. Monero will be $300k at the end of this year. :-) Do not forget to take your meds.

He can't say I didn't warn him not to make such pronouncements (did he really call for $300K price for Monero  Huh I doubt it.) and handhold investors in HODLing during the downturn.

They need a market case. Maybe the game coin idea (but not understanding why game players want an anonymous coin). Maybe the idea that when the first fungibility violations hit the newswire, then investors will start flooding in (but I argue against TPTB shooting themselves in the foot). Maybe investors wanting their gains to be anonymous given the war on cash coming (just seems like most investors are complacent on this point at this time).

smooth
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May 19, 2015, 09:15:39 PM
 #24454

Monero has lost ~90% of it's value vs. BTC since last September

Uh, no. You are misreading something.

Quote
You can implement the exact same distributed and trustless mixing mechanisms in wallets that live on top of Bitcoin

No you can't. It is totally different cryptography at the transaction level, and would require at least a soft fork, but that is very messy and far more complex than any existing or proposed soft forks, meaning it has essentially zero chance to happen in practice. It could and probably will happen on a side chain, but that raises various other issues.

There are other differences like an actual deployed (and somewhat stress tested) mechanism for managing the blocksize without a hard limit.

cypherdoc
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May 19, 2015, 09:15:48 PM
 #24455

i hope the 1MB cap core devs realize that their new customer, the NASDAQ, will require ongoing cheap tx fees:

Under a colored coin system, small fractions of bitcoin can be designated to represent much larger values. Users need to purchase some amount of bitcoins in order to move them, but bitcoins are divisible to eight decimal places. With the bitcoin exchange rate around $230 today, an issuer could purchase a thousandth of one for less than 25 cents and subdivide it into smaller pieces for distribution to investors.

http://www.americanbanker.com/news/bank-technology/nasdaq-signals-confidence-in-bitcoin-not-just-the-blockchain-1074405-1.html
kazuki49
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May 19, 2015, 09:15:57 PM
 #24456

It seems reasonable, and afair TPTB have cracked down on exchanges for game currencies because they do realize this threat.

Is Monero ready to resist such crackdowns? Does it have decentralized exchanges? Can the authorities not track down IP addresses and make examples to discourage others from subverting a ban?

Might work.

My idea is an area that is more targeted to the market of those who need anonymity and thus might be more willing to fight. Not sure if game players want to pick an unnecessary fight with the government.

I like your posts but IPs is one of the least worries for privacy in a coin, the "worst" they could ascertain is that you made a transaction to... somewhere, a Monero crackdown would only Straisant effect it, they can't even block torrents, how would a ban take place? They can't ban it everywhere in the world at same time.

The problem is not cryptocurrencies being illegal but illegal transactions to obtain illegal services and goods, what Bitcoin too enable and can't fix, the fix for this is going after the bad guys offering illegal services and goods, the same way torrents are not illegal but what you share on them can be, well you can't know what people are "sharing" in the Monero network so you either ban everything or try work around the regulatory aspects Monero enable, then we'll know what is being anti-fragile, what is being disruptive, no matter how TPTB try to handle Monero it won't crack and turn back on its users in form a digital financial panopticon like Bitcoin is already.

now more general: being anti-Monero because it enables privacy is doing what the enemy wants, when did hardcores bitcoiners became the enemies of our true financial freedom? I have each day more respect for the bitcoiners that get it not mattering if they are in Monero or not, then for ones that say Monero won't make it for being "too anonymous"
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May 19, 2015, 09:20:29 PM
 #24457


...

The distasteful voice is because I have a distaste for government, and would rather not speak about it. I also seldom speak about shit that sticks to the sole of my shoe. And I don't lift my hand to remove it, same as I don't lift my hand to remove the government. But I don't touch it either.

This is pure art.
cypherdoc
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May 19, 2015, 09:21:05 PM
 #24458

It seems reasonable, and afair TPTB have cracked down on exchanges for game currencies because they do realize this threat.

Is Monero ready to resist such crackdowns? Does it have decentralized exchanges? Can the authorities not track down IP addresses and make examples to discourage others from subverting a ban?

Might work.

My idea is an area that is more targeted to the market of those who need anonymity and thus might be more willing to fight. Not sure if game players want to pick an unnecessary fight with the government.

I like your posts but IPs is one of the least worries for privacy in a coin, the "worst" they could ascertain is that you made a transaction to... somewhere, a Monero crackdown would only Straisant effect it, they can't even block torrents, how would a ban take place? They can't ban it everywhere in the world at same time.

The problem is not cryptocurrencies being illegal but illegal transactions to obtain illegal services and goods, what Bitcoin too enable and can't fix, the fix for this is going after the bad guys offering illegal services and goods, the same way torrents are not illegal but what you share on them can be, well you can't know what people are "sharing" in the Monero network so you either ban everything or try work around the regulatory aspects Monero enable, then we'll know what is being anti-fragile, what is being disruptive, no matter how TPTB try to handle Monero it won't crack and turn back on its users in form a digital financial panopticon like Bitcoin is already.


The Great Firewall of China, that presumed absolute Communist State grand daddy of them all, is merely an http:// blocker.  no more.
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May 19, 2015, 09:24:54 PM
 #24459

Sorry but I see nothing innovative or unique here.

Take your time.

It took months from my initial monero purchase to start getting it, why it stands out from all the other coins.

There is no place anywhere that succinctly presents the investor case of Monero, so it is hard to grok. Soon will be, as I mentioned.

We are not in it for a quick buck, nor for a quick btc.

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May 19, 2015, 09:30:53 PM
 #24460

1. Monero is far less(order of magnitudes) secure than bitcoin. (it is very fragile)
2. Monero requires N times more resources than Bitcoin for same transaction.
3. Monero cannot do transaction that Bitcoin can do (e.g, multi-signatures)
4. In reality Monero is not more anonymous than bitcoin, it is only a little harder(for uninformed crowd) to analyse.
5. Everything Monero can do, Bitcoin can do better.
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