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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805164 times)
thezerg
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May 06, 2015, 05:10:32 PM
 #23521

Cypherdoc while I still am "for" sidechains from a technical perspective, I'm beginning to think that you are correct that sidechains (etc) presents a conflict of interest for some core devs.  Ideally one could make bitcoin the best that it can be and use sidechains for things that are impossible for bitcoin to do.  However resistance to the 20MB change seems to me like people want bitcoin to be reduced to Gold's role -- backing a lot of other layers (lightning network, changetip, certain sidechains) that are what is actually used.  This opens up space for these other layers to make money.

And so we will end up with the all the same issues with services we have today because these for-profit corporate backed layers will be taking their piece of the pie, limiting transactional freedom, and confiscating balances at the whim of TPTB.

My guess is that this blogging avalanche of Gavin's is basically his way of saying that he's going to fight this one "to the death".





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Erdogan
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May 06, 2015, 05:13:19 PM
 #23522


I haven't read all his bog posts but he is showing signs of understand when it comes to engaging the community.

I can only imagine all these posts were written by taking feedback from lengthy consultations and he planned the release to capture all the fragmented interests in the Bitcoin community one buy one. Leaving specific interests to fight fires as he moves into virgin territory to start a new blaze.

I take my hat off to him he is creative and that's his biggest assets.

i put this video up last month where Gavin clearly telegraphs what is happening now.  he said he might have to throw his weight around which is what he is now doing.  and he has the credibility to do so.  but you have to back up around 2y to understand why he's doing this.  my conspiratorial mind says this is when gmax first hatched the idea of Blockstream and started working on gathering up most of the other core devs into the scheme.  since that time, nothing substantial has gotten done around the core protocol as solex pointed out above. i say it's b/c Blockstream stands to make billions if tx's are forced off MC to SC's.  it's also the time when gmax started hitting Reddit and the forum about the SC idea.  while Gavin has always been respectful and even slightly positive about SC's, i don't think he's fully on board with the idea and i've pointed out subtle examples of such.  and for good reasons as i, and you, have tried to articulate in many settings.  but my point is, this is the setting around which his blog posts are occurring;  it's now time to open up Bitcoin to the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w



i fail to see what is preventing "the masses" to adopt bitcoin now.

How hard forking bitcoin would change this Huh

my sense is that major financial institutions and payment processors understand that Bitcoin is not scalable at 1MB.  therefore, they don't feel particularly threatened; yet.  this leads to investors large and small similarly being skeptical.  by lifting the limit, or by taking a baby step to 20MB, suddenly Bitcoin can be shown to scale.  once that realization kicks in, i suspect you will see a flood of investor capital into the coin itself, driving the price up, and subsequently encouraging an entirely new round of investment in merchant providers and mining companies.

I have come to understand that a lot of people drag their feet because they doubt the technical feasibility of the system. So yes, 20 MB blocks, or just the prospect of them, is bullish!
cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 05:33:56 PM
 #23523

$DJI catching down to the $DJT with $DJT about to go off the cliff.  get out the popcorn:

cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 05:37:33 PM
 #23524

everything US going down now.  that should only mean one thing for Bitcoin, UP:



cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
 #23525

well, waddaya know.  i just plunked in GBTC into my TOS and got this!  $550/BTC!!!

lebing
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May 06, 2015, 05:45:24 PM
 #23526

with a $940 high  Grin

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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May 06, 2015, 06:28:03 PM
 #23527

Cypherdoc while I still am "for" sidechains from a technical perspective, I'm beginning to think that you are correct that sidechains (etc) presents a conflict of interest for some core devs.  Ideally one could make bitcoin the best that it can be and use sidechains for things that are impossible for bitcoin to do.  However resistance to the 20MB change seems to me like people want bitcoin to be reduced to Gold's role -- backing a lot of other layers (lightning network, changetip, certain sidechains) that are what is actually used.  This opens up space for these other layers to make money.

And so we will end up with the all the same issues with services we have today because these for-profit corporate backed layers will be taking their piece of the pie, limiting transactional freedom, and confiscating balances at the whim of TPTB.

My guess is that this blogging avalanche of Gavin's is basically his way of saying that he's going to fight this one "to the death".

I hope he does.  I very strongly advocated AGAINST ALL his previous proposals.
I'd have sold out of the fork and stayed on the 1mb chain until a better solution was made.
He answered all my concerns with this one.  I'm on board.

It does little enough and gives us room to develop the necessary pieces for getting further.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
 #23528

big, big trouble:

justusranvier
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May 06, 2015, 06:50:42 PM
 #23529

Added some diagrams which should greatly enhance understanding of the protocol:

https://github.com/justusranvier/rfc/blob/payment_code/bips/bip-pc01.mediawiki
NewLiberty
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May 06, 2015, 07:10:15 PM
 #23530

Added some diagrams which should greatly enhance understanding of the protocol:

https://github.com/justusranvier/rfc/blob/payment_code/bips/bip-pc01.mediawiki

Those sexy diagrams are a helpful addition.

I've always enjoyed the ongoing romance of Alice and Bob.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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May 06, 2015, 07:12:29 PM
 #23531

big, big trouble:



been waiting for this since 09
rocks
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May 06, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
 #23532

Added some diagrams which should greatly enhance understanding of the protocol:

https://github.com/justusranvier/rfc/blob/payment_code/bips/bip-pc01.mediawiki

Those sexy diagrams are a helpful addition.

I've always enjoyed the ongoing romance of Alice and Bob.

They have a true romance, but Eve is always trying to spoil it.

justusranvier, thanks for sharing and explaining this work in this thread
Livermore
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History repeats


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May 06, 2015, 08:02:40 PM
 #23533


http://i.imgur.com/jBdgjHn.png

 I don't see any bearish signs yet. 200day EMA (white) still rising and price is above it. It has served as big big support 5 times.

However I do agree with your DXY bearish. Time for correction.

Oct2015 starts the 4th bubble. -May2014 prediction
cypherdoc
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May 06, 2015, 08:10:45 PM
 #23534

big, big trouble:





 I don't see any bearish signs yet. 200day EMA (white) still rising and price is above it. It has served as big big support 5 times.

However I do agree with your DXY bearish. Time for correction.


last minute stick save $DJT +12.9.  still concerning.  we're very close.

we all have our indicators, methods with which to analyze the markets.  i like Dow Theory and cycle analysis so we'll see.
solex
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May 06, 2015, 10:11:07 PM
 #23535

I'm trying to find out if this is different to the last gavin update, where the rolling increase was proposed 20mb first and X% per increment after. Or if this new proposal is a different hacked increase to 20mb, thus requiring another hard fork in the future should this new limit need changing?
thanks

The new proposal is similar to Satoshi's original 2010 example where the max block size increases after a predetermined block height (115,000).
Instead, Gavin has code allowing a one-off increase, blocks up to 20MB which are later than a predetermined timestamp (1st March 2016 00:00:00 UTC). Block timestamps can only vary +/- a couple of hours from UTC. The advantage is that everyone will know the date by which they need to have their full node upgraded. Working with block height means that the cut-over could vary, a couple of weeks earlier or later, depending on difficulty changes.

Hopefully, this will get unanimous consensus in core dev (the 5 people with commit access) so that there is not a split. In theory Gavin could commit this change and someone else reverse it in an "edit war". That would be a sad situation. However, Gavin has a trump card which means he *should* be able to prevail even if he were to be in a minority of 4:1 against. Satoshi gave him the key to broadcast alerts to all the instances of BitcoinCore. So, he could fork the code and create, say "Bitcoin20", and advise all BitcoinCore users that they need to upgrade to Bitcoin20 (or BitcoinXT). I really hope it does not come to that.

He has consulted many stakeholders and indications are that major miners, exchanges, wallet providers, 3rd party services, and BitcoinXT will be on-board with the change. Those that want to see how 1MB affects fees might get their wish, because March 2016 is a fair way off and there may be long periods of nearly-full 1MB blocks. The resulting problems for ordinary users will create an avalanche of demand for the 20MB change, or Bitcoin20, if that is what it takes.

It is worth repeating: just because the max block size increases does not mean the blocks immediately get bigger. The 1st 20MB block may be 5 years away.

edit: the last point about future limit changes. Yes, other hard-forks may be necessary, however, 20MB is large enough that it buys time for alternative scaling methods to be fully developed and implemented, such as the Lightning Networks.

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May 06, 2015, 10:32:30 PM
 #23536

Matt Corallo, Blockstream co-founder, just sent an email with the subject "Block Size Increase" on btc dev mailing list , you could read it all here:

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090292/

quoting the relevant part:

Quote from: Matt Corallo on btc dev mailing list
Personally, I'm rather strongly against any commitment to a block size
increase in the near future
. Long-term incentive compatibility requires
that there be some fee pressure, and that blocks be relatively
consistently full or very nearly full. What we see today are
transactions enjoying next-block confirmations with nearly zero pressure
to include any fee at all (though many do because it makes wallet code
simpler).

bold is mine

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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May 06, 2015, 11:22:10 PM
 #23537

Matt Corallo, Blockstream co-founder, just sent an email with the subject "Block Size Increase" on btc dev mailing list , you could read it all here:

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090292/

quoting the relevant part:

Quote from: Matt Corallo on btc dev mailing list
Personally, I'm rather strongly against any commitment to a block size
increase in the near future
. Long-term incentive compatibility requires
that there be some fee pressure, and that blocks be relatively
consistently full or very nearly full. What we see today are
transactions enjoying next-block confirmations with nearly zero pressure
to include any fee at all (though many do because it makes wallet code
simpler).

bold is mine

This is an example of what I was saying yesterday about core dev being too focused on the tech to see the big picture.
Matt suggests using the 1MB to apply upwards fee pressure. This is using a bit of software for something for which it was not intended. It is like using a hammer to fix a car engine. Mike Hearn has recently provided the missing piece of the puzzle of why Satoshi put the 1MB in place. It was for anti-spam when everyone who used Bitcoin needed to run a full node: a time when there were no lightweight wallets.

The idea which thezerg recently came up with is far superior to just leveraging the 1MB to force up fees (which won't work as people will start to abandon Bitcoin instead).

I'm for Gavin's 20MB increase.  But if I was doing it, I'd propose actually building a real supply/demand curve so economic analysis actually works.  The reason it doesn't work today is because additional demand (price) cannot ever create new supply (space in the block).

So I'd do it by allowing txn fee paying blocks to be located beyond the limit (its now a "soft" limit).  In other words, if your txn pays 0uBTC fee it can be located in the block at 0-20MB, if 1uBtc located at 0-21MB, if 2uBTC located at 0-22MB, 3uBTC located at 0-23MB, etc (or some other pricing curve).  So supply (space in a block) can actually increase as demand increases.

You might be able to look at historical block size vs price information to actually price this... it does not need to be perfect since an error will just move the graph a bit.  The biggest concern would be if exponential BTC price increases (vs fiat) makes the minimum fee way too high.  In that case, we are no worse than today's proposal.

I like this proposal a lot.

High-priority non-fee transactions that consume older coins are suppose to be just that, free and gain priority access to a block. Today's situation is even if your transaction has enough priority to qualify for free processing, they often take hours to confirm since most minors do not pick high priority transactions without a fee. This completely defeats the purpose of having the priority system at all.

Reserving a front space in each block for high-priority non-fee transactions does two things:
1) It would ensure that high-priority transactions are processed in a timely fashion
2) It would encourage more competition from low-priority transactions and possibly increase the fees they need to offer to be processed quickly

This would shift transaction fees more towards for profit services that are built on top of bitcoin and away from individual wallet users. I would consider this to be a good thing.

Anyone on this thread have contact with any of the core developers? Have they considered it? If not how could zerg propose it (provide people here also think it makes sense...)

If core dev came up with a variation of this, e.g. based upon a function of the median aggregate block fee over the previous 2016 blocks for the "buying" of blockspace >1MB then perhaps their position could be taken more seriously.

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May 07, 2015, 12:43:29 AM
 #23538

With fees, I see no problem with the market sorting it out. Except - when someone wants to minimize the fees of his own transactions, some transactions will suddenly take forever to confirm. So a possibility to raise the fee on a nonconfirmed transaction would be great. Has anyone suggested that, or is it unpossible technically?
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May 07, 2015, 12:56:28 AM
 #23539

With fees, I see no problem with the market sorting it out. Except - when someone wants to minimize the fees of his own transactions, some transactions will suddenly take forever to confirm. So a possibility to raise the fee on a nonconfirmed transaction would be great. Has anyone suggested that, or is it unpossible technically?

Yes it is called replace by fee
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May 07, 2015, 04:52:08 AM
 #23540

given what has happened to Ripple today, i am forced to haul out one of my old time memes which i have now taken up to 70% probability in my own mind:

"The blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".


I'd put it this way: "We will know if the blockchain is applicable to more than money only when Bitcoin is well established as money".

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