Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 07:20:42 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 [1140] 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807632 times)
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


View Profile
April 15, 2015, 02:23:42 AM
 #22781

Quote
No one believes any real government will default

This is bizarre,  since throughout history, it's pretty much the rule that governments default eventually.  Of course, most people these days haven't a clue about history, since they are 'schooled' by the very same defaulting governments.

The difference is this time there are these bailout entities such as the IMF, who's sole purpose is to keep creditors 100% whole and socialize loses (on us). It's not that people believe governments such as Greece won't default, but that a bailout entity will come in and save the day.

This distorts risk by enabling credit to leverage up. Eventually it comes back down to normal levels one way or another. To give an indication of how bad the unwind can become, here is a chart of Debt vs GDP. The tiny blip caused the 2008 crash, now imagine if we go back to historically normal levels.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/04/pmr%200.0.jpg
Remember a few yrs ago when greece pt 2 happened.. The fed stepped up and became a backer of the imf.. Not many ppl knew about it but essentially fed lent billions to imf for liquidity essentially putting all the eggs in one basket.. So its just that the bears went away because everyone is in it together.. It will go until fed and imf cant service the debt.
1481354442
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481354442

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481354442
Reply with quote  #2

1481354442
Report to moderator
1481354442
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481354442

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481354442
Reply with quote  #2

1481354442
Report to moderator
1481354442
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481354442

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481354442
Reply with quote  #2

1481354442
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481354442
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481354442

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481354442
Reply with quote  #2

1481354442
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 02:27:11 AM
 #22782

tell me somebody isn't watching the chart of the Transports and stepping in to reverse almost all intraday attempts to violate this support level as evidenced by the spinning top intraday reversals; especially today after the previous singular violation on 4/6.  sure, one can just implicate speculators buying at support but otoh, it could be the Magic Hand of the PPT:

explorer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 02:31:12 AM
 #22783

Quote
No one believes any real government will default

This is bizarre,  since throughout history, it's pretty much the rule that governments default eventually.  Of course, most people these days haven't a clue about history, since they are 'schooled' by the very same defaulting governments.

The difference is this time there are these bailout entities such as the IMF, who's sole purpose is to keep creditors 100% whole and socialize loses (on us). It's not that people believe governments such as Greece won't default, but that a bailout entity will come in and save the day.


Greece?!   Compared to England, France, Japan, USA, (Your Country HERE) their default won't cause much of a (ehem) ripple.  None of these people have absolutely ANY intention of paying back.  They can't even afford the negative interest rate lol  This just cannot transition smoothly.  IMF et al might be able to bail out smooth over whatever for Greece.  And Portugal. And Spain. And Ireland... What will they be able to do when the measurable economies start to default?  And They Will.  Government spending only slows when the host has expired.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 02:43:08 AM
 #22784

Quote
No one believes any real government will default

This is bizarre,  since throughout history, it's pretty much the rule that governments default eventually.  Of course, most people these days haven't a clue about history, since they are 'schooled' by the very same defaulting governments.

The difference is this time there are these bailout entities such as the IMF, who's sole purpose is to keep creditors 100% whole and socialize loses (on us). It's not that people believe governments such as Greece won't default, but that a bailout entity will come in and save the day.


Greece?!   Compared to England, France, Japan, USA, (Your Country HERE) their default won't cause much of a (ehem) ripple.  None of these people have absolutely ANY intention of paying back.  They can't even afford the negative interest rate lol  This just cannot transition smoothly.  IMF et al might be able to bail out smooth over whatever for Greece.  And Portugal. And Spain. And Ireland... What will they be able to do when the measurable economies start to default?  And They Will.  Government spending only slows when the host has expired.

the host, unfortunately, being WE THE PEOPLE.

speculators willingly hoover up gvt bonds knowing full well that ultimately the gvt can tax the ppl to death or mandate pension plans buy gvt bonds to keep their value propped up.  they even willingly pay for the privilege in terms of negative interest rates.  eventually, the stock mkt will be sacrificed to keep the gvt bond buying mirage intact for as long as possible.

we are all going Japanese.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 03:01:33 AM
 #22785

Quote
tell me somebody isn't watching the chart of the Transports and stepping in to reverse almost all intraday attempts to violate this support level as evidenced by the spinning top intraday reversals; especially today after the previous singular violation on 4/6.  sure, one can just implicate speculators buying at support but otoh, it could be the Magic Hand of the PPT:

tell me anybody is surprised with this?

the PPT has gotten a lot more sophisticated since the inaugural 1987 rescue, not the least because of the massive profits to be made by it's market-facing, front-running functionaries (JPM, GS, MS).

They are by now undoubtedly running HFT algorithms that monitor, trade (intervene) and control (set levels/bands) all major market pricing to such a fine scale that it is arguable as to whether there isn't ANY major market action that hasn't been officially sanctioned. Flash-crashes being the exception when the FED/USTreas PPT control systems lose control temporarily.

It's just a magic fun game hall of mirrors illusion/casino meant to keep the rubes playing the game and the man-on-street asleep to the underlying corrupt, inefficient dysfunctional financial/monetary system. It really is morphing into a modern version of the Soviet era command-economy with all financial control at the center; everything seems to grind along okay for quite a while but it is terribly inefficient economically, ripe for abuse at all levels and inevitably dies due to paralysing stagnation from gross misallocation of resources due to vibrant creative destruction being denied for decades.

It is again the gray hand of the State clamping down and strangling free markets to death, only this time in a slow painful manner. Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 03:19:15 AM
 #22786

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.

i agree with most of what you say except for the above.

yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

i can see why you're so willing to allow change to the source code, you think we've lost the game here in the US and only things like SC's can save us.  have a little more faith.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 04:18:31 AM
 #22787

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.
yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

NB: this has nothing to do with my support for implementing 2-way pegs in the protocol.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 04:37:29 AM
 #22788

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.
yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

NB: this has nothing to do with my support for implementing 2-way pegs in the protocol.

except that shorting requires borrowing existing BTC on the exchange of which there is only a theoretically limited supply.  this is where naked shorting potentially enters the picture and any exchange who allows this should be black balled and reported to the authorities for illegal practices hopefully to be shut down.  but of course, getting them to do anything is another story.

and yes, i think you're allowing the bear mkt to influence your perception that Bitcoin isn't working in the US.  Bitcoin cannot not work in an isolated geographical region imo.  it will route around that area until it forces capitulation of affected area.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 05:04:08 AM
 #22789

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.
yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

NB: this has nothing to do with my support for implementing 2-way pegs in the protocol.

except that shorting requires borrowing existing BTC on the exchange of which there is only a theoretically limited supply.  this is where naked shorting potentially enters the picture and any exchange who allows this should be black balled and reported to the authorities for illegal practices hopefully to be shut down.  but of course, getting them to do anything is another story.

and yes, i think you're allowing the bear mkt to influence your perception that Bitcoin isn't working in the US.  Bitcoin cannot not work in an isolated geographical region imo.  it will route around that area until it forces capitulation of affected area.

I've been through at least 3 bitcoin bear markets (maybe 4?) so I don't think it is doom colouring my perception. Coinbase and Circle are nothing more than revamped PayPals built on top of bitcoin, not sure that BitPay is that much better. End user solutions that maximise the decentralisation benefits of bitcoin's digital cash are not even on the drawing board in USA because of absolute obsequiousness towards the Almighty State dictat there.

Inviting regulation when there was an opportunity for gaining the moral high-ground through legitimate civilian disobedience against the prevalent government push towards ubiquitous financial surveillance is a major error and missed opportunity. The bankster attack dogs will gladly regulate (and fraudulently trade for profit) bitcoin to its obscurity, just like they have done with gold.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 05:21:09 AM
 #22790

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.
yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

NB: this has nothing to do with my support for implementing 2-way pegs in the protocol.

except that shorting requires borrowing existing BTC on the exchange of which there is only a theoretically limited supply.  this is where naked shorting potentially enters the picture and any exchange who allows this should be black balled and reported to the authorities for illegal practices hopefully to be shut down.  but of course, getting them to do anything is another story.

and yes, i think you're allowing the bear mkt to influence your perception that Bitcoin isn't working in the US.  Bitcoin cannot not work in an isolated geographical region imo.  it will route around that area until it forces capitulation of affected area.

I've been through at least 3 bitcoin bear markets (maybe 4?) so I don't think it is doom colouring my perception. Coinbase and Circle are nothing more than revamped PayPals built on top of bitcoin, not sure that BitPay is that much better. End user solutions that maximise the decentralisation benefits of bitcoin's digital cash are not even on the drawing board in USA because of absolute obsequiousness towards the Almighty State dictat there.

Inviting regulation when there was an opportunity for gaining the moral high-ground through legitimate civilian disobedience against the prevalent government push towards ubiquitous financial surveillance is a major error and missed opportunity. The bankster attack dogs will gladly regulate (and fraudulently trade for profit) bitcoin to its obscurity, just like they have done with gold.


Bitcoin is different from gold in that it's fixed supply base is easily verifiable in real time.  message signing can be used to verify every holders BTC position as proof.  Merkle tree audits can be used to verify an exchanges holdings.  gold, not at all, being locked up in forts and vaults of exchanges in a few locations.  as a result, the paper gold mkt can be much more easily manipulated.  

but who says it is being manipulated?  i think it is in fact slowly losing its exchange value to Bitcoin.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
April 15, 2015, 11:14:01 AM
 #22791

So it comes back to my original point. Everything is enabled, supported and depends on the central banks. They enable credit bubbles in the first place. Once they are either unwilling or unable to continue artificial support, credit will deleverage which will cause the market will go down. Their only alternative is to hit Cntl+P hard.
The central banks only have two options:

  • They can utterly destroy their respective currencies
  • They can force the governments of the world into operating a balanced budget with a real surplus.

Both of those options are politically impossible, and likely to cause a spontaneous existence failure of both governments and central banks.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
April 15, 2015, 11:19:46 AM
 #22792

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.
The only thing to worry about is the spread of exchanges that do not allow users to withdraw real bitcoins on the blockchain. I haven't yet seen any of those.

A the monument, I don't care how low they manipulate the price since the lower it goes the more bitcoins I can buy and transfer to cold storage each month.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 11:25:21 AM
 #22793

Listen carefully, from smericanpegasus:

79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 178

◕_◕


View Profile
April 15, 2015, 12:52:27 PM
 #22794

The vagaries of cash, or lessons in not controlling your funds:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/uncle-sam-may-have-picked-the-wrong-cash-cow/2015/04/14/227aa73c-de2e-11e4-a500-1c5bb1d8ff6a_story.html
ssmc2
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


View Profile
April 15, 2015, 01:16:07 PM
 #22795


Yep and there's this: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/investigations/2015/03/28/iowa-forfeiture-system-legal-thievery/70600856/

The country I live in disgusts me more and more every day. USSA.

Try taking my private keys Uncle Sam.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
April 15, 2015, 01:44:09 PM
 #22796

Look at what happened to bitcoin in USA since Fed/wall st. took an interest, it died.
yes, i think they are interfering in the Bitcoin price mkt thru derivatives.  but i don't think it is sustainable and they most likely will get whiplashed to the tune of millions of losses when the mkt turns up.  we all should be keeping a close eye out for the first derivatives exchange (here's looking at you BFX) that does a force majeure that forces settlement in USD as opposed to BTC from the lack of available BTC needed to be covered.

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

NB: this has nothing to do with my support for implementing 2-way pegs in the protocol.

except that shorting requires borrowing existing BTC on the exchange of which there is only a theoretically limited supply.  this is where naked shorting potentially enters the picture and any exchange who allows this should be black balled and reported to the authorities for illegal practices hopefully to be shut down.  but of course, getting them to do anything is another story.

and yes, i think you're allowing the bear mkt to influence your perception that Bitcoin isn't working in the US.  Bitcoin cannot not work in an isolated geographical region imo.  it will route around that area until it forces capitulation of affected area.

I've been through at least 3 bitcoin bear markets (maybe 4?) so I don't think it is doom colouring my perception. Coinbase and Circle are nothing more than revamped PayPals built on top of bitcoin, not sure that BitPay is that much better. End user solutions that maximise the decentralisation benefits of bitcoin's digital cash are not even on the drawing board in USA because of absolute obsequiousness towards the Almighty State dictat there.

There is Abra which is a considerable challenge to AML/KYC laws

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
lunarboy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 544



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
 #22797


but who says it is being manipulated?  i think it is in fact slowly losing its exchange value to Bitcoin.

Since that's rather nicely back to the OP. I'm still not convinced you're going to be 'medium time frame' correct on that one.  I believe it's much more probable that these global currency wars will escalate and both bitcoin and gold will go up as last resort stores of value. Gold is hoarded by nation states as such they are traditional and slow to change. Perhaps on a 20 year time frame, but certainly not in the next 5 years.

justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
April 15, 2015, 02:58:28 PM
 #22798


http://qntra.net/2015/04/police-send-spyware-of-lawyer-for-whistle-blower/

Quote
As always persons located in the United States are recommended to discount the possibility that "Law Enforcement" agencies are realistically constrained by the law.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
April 15, 2015, 04:29:27 PM
 #22799

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.

The only thing to worry about is the spread of exchanges that do not allow users to withdraw real bitcoins on the blockchain. I haven't yet seen any of those.

This is exactly right.

As long as withdrawing is possible, then any manipulation is extremely limited since a manipulator first needs to acquire bitcoins before selling. Free exchange and the ability to withdraw force exchanges to not fractionally leverage their holdings (in essence naked short) and force exchanges to be relatively honest.

If free exchange and the right to withdraw into your own wallet is ever stopped, only then can an exchange or a government manipulate prices.

Again, FDR's 1933 default was exactly this. In 1932 anyone could walk into a bank and exchange $ for gold. In 1933 this free exchange was stopped and you were no longer able to "withdraw" your gold, which dollars represented. Once the ability to withdraw was blocked, the government was free to leverage to infinity.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 15, 2015, 04:47:23 PM
 #22800

if their algos keep a continually falling lid on prices and price perceptions such that the market never "turns up" materially, funded by unlimited supplies of fiat only, then it is an effective social/economic attack that will inevitably sideline bitcoin as a useful currency. The exchanges that facilitate manipulative pricing algorithms on their platforms are accomplices in this attack on bitcoin and imho should be treated as such.
The only thing to worry about is the spread of exchanges that do not allow users to withdraw real bitcoins on the blockchain. I haven't yet seen any of those.

This is exactly right.

As long as withdrawing is possible, then any manipulation is extremely limited since a manipulator first needs to acquire bitcoins before selling. Free exchange and the ability to withdraw force exchanges to not fractionally leverage their holdings (in essence naked short) and force exchanges to be relatively honest.

If free exchange and the right to withdraw into your own wallet is ever stopped, only then can an exchange or a government manipulate prices.

Again, FDR's 1933 default was exactly this. In 1932 anyone could walk into a bank and exchange $ for gold. In 1933 this free exchange was stopped and you were no longer able to "withdraw" your gold, which dollars represented. Once the ability to withdraw was blocked, the government was free to leverage to infinity.

The corollary to this is "never leave any coin on exchanges!"
Pages: « 1 ... 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 [1140] 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!