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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805880 times)
Erdogan
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April 05, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
 #22521


Example: People use gold for itself (jewellery etc). Therefore gold has "intrinsic value".
You can call it whatever you want, thing is, it's something fiat money or bitcoin don't have.
Whether that "intrinsic value" is culturally determined or not doesn't matter. RIGHT NOW people use gold for itself. They don't do that with fiat or bitcoin.
It's quite simple really.

By the way, I'm no gold bug and I don't use that argument to say that gold is better money (because I don't think it is).



"Im here to tell you the ability to publish information to an immutable globally shared memory system (history) is its intrinsic use"
^^^How is that the intrinsic value of a bitcoin? It's the blockchain that can do that not bitcoin, bitcoin is the blockchain security mechanism/reward token. Any distributed ledger/database could do that.

I happen to agree with you but I would tend to use ironic statements instead:

I can blow my nose with paper money.  So it has "intrinsic value".  I look at people who would waste gold on making jewlery and find it is rather analogous.  Copper is much more useful than paper, but the same weight of paper in paper money is considered more valuable.  Miners for some reason do not want to accept $200 in pennies for a bitcion.

But the next time someone says gold has intrinsic value therefore worth more, offer that five cents in pennies should be considered worth more than a hundred dollar bill by the same argument.  Dollars, Euros, bitcoin, they are all tokens in a monetary system.

What gives bitcoin more value over say, its many other altcoins?  It is all of the people who decide to back it.  It ironically is the most light weight cryptocurrency because there are many spv-wallets, whereas often altcoins only have Satoshi clients.

sdp

You are both basically correct, and I love it when people use the word intrinsic correctly. You can find intrinsic value in most everything, like you said with blowing your nose with a fiat bill. We know that gold has intrinsic value, because it has been used to make beautiful things, it is easy to form and it is in fact shiny. What we don't know, and cannot know, is the extent of the intrinsic value compared to the total value. With the bills, we can know that the intrinsic value is small, because you can use cheaper stuff to blow your nose. It is so small that the most correct thing is to disregard it completely, and say that fiat money has no intrinsic value. The same goes for bitcoin.

There is a problematic point with fiat for example used to light up your cigar - destruction of value just to show that you can afford it, to display your wealth. The same with gold, you don't have to destroy it, albeit that is also possible, as people eat leaf gold sometimes. With bitcoin it is also possible to show off, you can flash your phone's wallet, or even better, you can sign a message with the key of a large wallet, as Loaded did. None of this is in my opinion intrinsic value, but maybe we can invent a new word for the concept: Meta-value, the value of displaying value.

You say intrinsic value as gold have, does not make it better money. I agree, in fact I think the money is better without intrinsic value, and I like to call that pure money. But in saying so, we disagree with Aristoteles and Mises, both reputable and well known persons. I think they were wrong, good money does not have to have intrinsic value. To excuse the old masters, it can be said that money with no intrinsic value in fact was impossible at the time. The general population at the time would never prefer a written note or a copper token coin to gold, so it would be impossible. Then and now, it is the traders who define, with their preference, what is the best money.

A contemporary gold bug says that gold is better because gold has intrinsic value. Bitcoin is nothing because it lacks intrinsic value. They are wrong, and this is the crux of the discussion. The gold bugs will have to come over, and they will.  





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Erdogan
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April 05, 2015, 11:20:14 PM
 #22522


 But in this thread, which is the center of bitcoin knowledge,


are you on crack? sane people occasionally pop in here, but mostly it's a troll thread for self-deluding old scatterbrains

Not a crack user. This thread, compared to the IMF website, that of Bank of England, New York Times blogs, Forbes, Coindesk... they are all inferior to this thread in knowledge about money. Have you read those sites? I wonder, they all ramble about the virtue of central control, the evil of anonymity, confusion about intrinsic value (I mean confusion as in total confusion), why money has value, not to mention all the non-knowledge of cryptograpy and computer security they put forward, unchallenged. If you want to know about money, fiat, gold and bitcoin, how they work and why, come here.
cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 01:43:55 AM
 #22523


 But in this thread, which is the center of bitcoin knowledge,


are you on crack? sane people occasionally pop in here, but mostly it's a troll thread for self-deluding old scatterbrains

uh huh.  declared by a 2 wk newbie account trying to hold back the avalanche.
Last of the V8s
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April 06, 2015, 07:43:54 AM
 #22524

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

14hhm2Pxcxd3WxAv1heGu9dgtgSaPSsJCJ
Erdogan
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April 06, 2015, 11:25:58 AM
 #22525

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

I don't mind other opinions, but they are better with arguments. If there are good sites, there must be, the internet is big, I want to know about them. By the way, I like zero hedge, because a small percentage of posts there are non-confused, and david stockmans site.

 
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April 06, 2015, 12:37:00 PM
 #22526

...This thread, compared to the IMF website, that of Bank of England, New York Times blogs, Forbes, Coindesk... they are all inferior to this thread in knowledge about money. ...

cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 01:57:15 PM
 #22527

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

Yes, you are stupid because you come in here with a 2wk account with no arguments, simply accusations. You couldn't possibly have been following this thread for any length of time to know what you're talking about nor form any valid  opinions of the people here so yes, you won't  get any respect because you haven't earned any.
inca
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April 06, 2015, 02:03:48 PM
 #22528

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

Yes, you are stupid because you come in here with a 2wk account with no arguments, simply accusations. You couldn't possibly have been following this thread for any length of time to know what you're talking about nor form any valid  opinions of the people here so yes, you won't  get any respect because you haven't earned any.

It is an NLC alt.
cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 02:17:56 PM
 #22529

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

Yes, you are stupid because you come in here with a 2wk account with no arguments, simply accusations. You couldn't possibly have been following this thread for any length of time to know what you're talking about nor form any valid  opinions of the people here so yes, you won't  get any respect because you haven't earned any.

It is an NLC alt.

given that sporket likes images also, i'd assume his is an alt as well?
sporket
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April 06, 2015, 02:26:03 PM
 #22530

Yes Erdogan those fiat/statist sites and one scam-infused 'coin' site obviously spout nonsense.
But your original claim was about bitcoin knowledge, not gold/money/fiat/old hat knowledge, and mine is that it is better found elsewhere.

Yes op it was stupid of me to make an account on bitcointalk and to attempt to engage your tsunami of trolls.

Yes, you are stupid because you come in here with a 2wk account with no arguments, simply accusations. You couldn't possibly have been following this thread for any length of time to know what you're talking about nor form any valid  opinions of the people here so yes, you won't  get any respect because you haven't earned any.

It is an NLC alt.

given that sporket likes images also, i'd assume his is an alt as well?

You two should start an internet detective agency.  If inca isn't just an alt you trot out when things get a bit quiet...
cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 02:30:11 PM
 #22531

ok, we have a dangerous signal on deck when it comes to the stock mkt.  the $DJT dipped below the January low which confirms the long term Dow Theory non-confirmation i have been going on about.  it needs to close below this level before becoming official.  we'll see if it does by the end of the day.  either way, it looks like it will either today or in the next few days.  of course, the Fed and banks watch the charts too, so it's time for a rescue pump if they're going to do one.

cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 02:35:30 PM
 #22532

here's a representative transport company, UAL, breaking down.  you would think their profits would be going up given the falling price of oil that has been going on since last summer.  but no, someone is selling it off probably b/c travel is down due to the ongoing deflation and overpriced stock:

cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
 #22533

lumber prices breaking down:

cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 03:18:16 PM
 #22534

Transports starting to give it up:

zanzibar
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April 06, 2015, 05:04:26 PM
 #22535

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-marketplace-buttercoin-folds-despite-1-3-million-investment/

These guys failed on many fronts, the name being the most obvious.  They cite a lack of Bitcoin VC investment interest as a reason for their closure.  This is so false and misleading in many ways, I live in the Silicon Valley and investor interest has never been so strong.  It really angers me that they would make that claim.
Melbustus
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April 06, 2015, 05:11:12 PM
 #22536

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-marketplace-buttercoin-folds-despite-1-3-million-investment/

These guys failed on many fronts, the name being the most obvious.  They cite a lack of Bitcoin VC investment interest as a reason for their closure.  This is so false and misleading in many ways, I live in the Silicon Valley and investor interest has never been so strong.  It really angers me that they would make that claim.


I think Coinbase effectively sucked up all the VC money for a *US Bitcoin Exchange*. Which makes sense; we desperately need a strong/liquid US platform, before it makes much sense to mess around with boutique/niche exchange products.

Agree that there's plenty of VC interest in Bitcoin in general. That comment about their being a "dip" annoyed me as well (though it does go in waves).

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 06:00:36 PM
 #22537

Even if it is true that VC  money is slowing into the merchants, Bitcoin 2.0, & altcoins space I think it is not a bad thing. I've always thought that too much  money was flowing into those spaces way too prematurely before Bitcoin 1.0 even had a chance to establish itself at its primary function, that of Sound Money. For it to get there the price has to go much higher and maybe now that many people have gotten their hands singed dabbling in these alternative investment buckets, maybe now the price can ascend to where it needs to be to support all these other arms of the economy.

The recent stabilization aka bottoming of the price after the usual 90 % pullback is indication of this happening. Let the price bucket fill.
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April 06, 2015, 06:02:40 PM
 #22538


Shit!  PM prices are in the toilet, Bitcoin much worse, and now even if I get authorization from the state to log my own fucking property timber prices from that will be down as well.  What's an unemployed loser to do?

I can hold out for another year or two by scaling back my projects, but if Bitcoin does not stage a recovery by that time I'm going to be drawing down my holdings in this area probably before the others.


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April 06, 2015, 08:55:11 PM
 #22539

Even if it is true that VC  money is slowing into the merchants, Bitcoin 2.0, & altcoins space I think it is not a bad thing. I've always thought that too much  money was flowing into those spaces way too prematurely before Bitcoin 1.0 even had a chance to establish itself at its primary function, that of Sound Money. For it to get there the price has to go much higher and maybe now that many people have gotten their hands singed dabbling in these alternative investment buckets, maybe now the price can ascend to where it needs to be to support all these other arms of the economy.

The recent stabilization aka bottoming of the price after the usual 90 % pullback is indication of this happening. Let the price bucket fill.

On the charts, mining difficulty has topped out while price has bottomed out. Venture capital continues to rise, though:



If venture capital finally quiets down a bit, the cash hose gets directed into the price bucket again.

It's probably important to note why the mining and VC buckets were filling throughout the past year, and the most natural explanation is of course that people saw the price as overinflated. It had just risen 10000% in a year, and mining and VC looked like great investments by comparison. Well now mining is overdone, and VC is looking frothy.

Hopefully the BIT and ETF will be just in time to catch the Wall Street money.

cypherdoc
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April 06, 2015, 09:15:57 PM
 #22540

Even if it is true that VC  money is slowing into the merchants, Bitcoin 2.0, & altcoins space I think it is not a bad thing. I've always thought that too much  money was flowing into those spaces way too prematurely before Bitcoin 1.0 even had a chance to establish itself at its primary function, that of Sound Money. For it to get there the price has to go much higher and maybe now that many people have gotten their hands singed dabbling in these alternative investment buckets, maybe now the price can ascend to where it needs to be to support all these other arms of the economy.

The recent stabilization aka bottoming of the price after the usual 90 % pullback is indication of this happening. Let the price bucket fill.

On the charts, mining difficulty has topped out while price has bottomed out. Venture capital continues to rise, though:



If venture capital finally quiets down a bit, the cash hose gets directed into the price bucket again.

It's probably important to note why the mining and VC buckets were filling throughout the past year, and the most natural explanation is of course that people saw the price as overinflated. It had just risen 10000% in a year, and mining and VC looked like great investments in comparison. Well now mining is overdone, and VC is looking frothy.

Hopefully the BIT and ETF will be just in time to catch the Wall Street money.

I personally have several wealthy friends who are finally starting to get in. They've been watching it for years knowing my involvement and are quite frankly surprised the whole  thing hasn't collapsed  to zero yet. Six years is a long time and demonstrates longevity especially for something that started at zero and  grew out of the  primordial ooze. With continued education on my part and the obvious collapse of currencies worldwide, these people are worried. And they're not about to buy a few hundred pounds of metal bars.

The Trezor helps alot. Knowing that they won't get their bitcoin stolen.
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