Bitcoin Forum
November 18, 2017, 02:47:16 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 [1131] 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008948 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:05:28 PM
 #22601



that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


BTC deposited on an sidechain are parked in an address owned by the sidechain, all the trading is just on its own public side-blockchain.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the sidechain, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


You're neglecting the friction I mentioned above. Also, when mtgox blows up, "someone" has  those coin. When a SC blows,  those coins will be gone.

Let me also introduce  another concept that represents my assessment of what will occur. Miners will not support SC's because ultimately SC's will be an unknown risk to their business model. They won't support that uncertainty. That's just my opinion.
1511016436
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511016436

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511016436
Reply with quote  #2

1511016436
Report to moderator
1511016436
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511016436

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511016436
Reply with quote  #2

1511016436
Report to moderator
A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511016436
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511016436

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511016436
Reply with quote  #2

1511016436
Report to moderator
1511016436
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511016436

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511016436
Reply with quote  #2

1511016436
Report to moderator
Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812


View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:14:19 PM
 #22602

Hmm, I wonder if Russia is still pissed about that whole "pulling-the-oil-market-support-rug" thing that the US did as retaliation for Ukraine? Lol

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-russia-hacked-white-house-213155901.html

How certain can  they be that it's indeed "the Ruskies"?

The "news" is released just to cover over the fact that the USG is behind most of the hacking. The law is for you and me, not for them.

brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:19:47 PM
 #22603



that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


BTC deposited on an sidechain are parked in an address owned by the sidechain, all the trading is just on its own public side-blockchain.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the sidechain, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


You're neglecting the friction I mentioned above. Also, when mtgox blows up, "someone" has  those coin. When a SC blows,  those coins will be gone.

Let me also introduce  another concept that represents my assessment of what will occur. Miners will not support SC's because ultimately SC's will be an unknown risk to their business model. They won't support that uncertainty. That's just my opinion.

Every indication point to miners having already welcomes the concept and the potential additional revenue streams.

As for Mt. Gox we have no indication that "someone" has those coins. What if they were not properly stored and their private key lost? SC's being open source code I'd like to think it is much less likely for them to "blow up".

There's no point arguing about security models until a clear, detailed proof-of-concept is unveiled.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:38:29 PM
 #22604



that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


BTC deposited on an sidechain are parked in an address owned by the sidechain, all the trading is just on its own public side-blockchain.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the sidechain, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


You're neglecting the friction I mentioned above. Also, when mtgox blows up, "someone" has  those coin. When a SC blows,  those coins will be gone.

Let me also introduce  another concept that represents my assessment of what will occur. Miners will not support SC's because ultimately SC's will be an unknown risk to their business model. They won't support that uncertainty. That's just my opinion.

You can withdraw from mtGox only if Karpeles allow it. You can withdraw from SC if you can create proof that you own pKey in SC.  It is human's will vs proof of math.

SC does not need a lot of miners. SC can timestamp transactions(whole side-blockchain) in bitcoin blockchain. (Same as CP does)
Shatoshi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:47:06 PM
 #22605

Hmm, I wonder if Russia is still pissed about that whole "pulling-the-oil-market-support-rug" thing that the US did as retaliation for Ukraine? Lol

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-russia-hacked-white-house-213155901.html

Did Putin REALLY think he was entitled to blackmail all of Europe and not suffer any repercussions? 

Oh he did.

...

Yes, Russia is butthurt.
smooth
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1596



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 09:51:33 PM
 #22606

In other words, yes, the blockchain needs the bitcoin token.  But that does not imply that Bitcoin needs the blockchain.  Ok, ok, Bitcoin obviously needs the Bitcoin Blockchain to exist as it contains the history of the token's value appreciation and forms the foundation of its awesome features.  So what we are really asking is "does Bitcoin need to use the blockchain exclusively?"

I think you were right the first time. Bitcoin the currency does not need the blockchain. It it is possible that the blockchain serves as a bootstrap platform for Bitcoin, which then over time evolves into a paper asset, the blockchain is viewed as unimportant legacy and eventually dropped. Likely? Not necessarily, but it is possible.
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 11:07:40 PM
 #22607


BTC "locked" into a sidechain also do not ever leave the blockchain.


What's important is where the value stored on the blockchain goes, sure the private keys controlling the Bitcoin locked in the Bitcoin blockchain secure the same percentage of the Bitcoin blockchain, but the value leaves the blockchain and moves into the sidechain, Bitcoin will be diminished.

Value is a key element in the incentive structure that makes Bitcoin. Erode it enough and the consequences could be bad.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 11:22:45 PM
 #22608

that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.

BTC "locked" into a sidechain also do not ever leave the blockchain.

no, they're being passed thru the peg to a new blockchain, the SC, which is less secure and thus fundamentally different than the MC.

Quote

SC's present its own form of problematic deposit; the spvp.  talk about friction; it will be necessary to have at minimum a 2d proof of locktime, probably more.  and then in the federated server model according to Adam himself, a necessary bounty to prevent cheating by the centralized owners.

...

it is all pie in the sky and glosses over the potential for losing coins while stuck on the SC in case of an attack.  these SC's will be attacked as they will be insecure by virtue of the fact they won't have 100% MM.  and there is just no guarantee of one getting his coins back on the MC in that event as their simplistic SC sandbox in the Bitcoin Park diagram is suggesting.  those miners who were once MM'ing to protect the SC can turn around and perform a 51% attack on the SC and refuse to mine the "proof of lock" thus disabling a return of those BTC all the while going short on the SC at an exchange. the slideshow presents as if nothing can go wrong.

There will be different security models for different use cases. Are there potential security threats? Of course, I think we've all come to an agreemeent that there are no such thing as a risk free extension of Bitcoin. Luckily there's a whole team of very smart people working to understand how these can be best mitigated.

That said, your premise : "the next logical extension ... that sidechains make no sense", makes no sense and does not apply to the currently debated blockchain without bitcoin meme.




it does make sense.  just not to you b/c of your mental framework of how you look at it.  those who have promoted SC's, while using your argument of "never leaving the MC" for marketing, have also simultaneously complained about how what they can do with Bitcoin is being constrained by the MC.  thus, they want to "move BTC with its value" over to an unconstrained SC, and reanimate them to scBTC, via the passthrough peg.  thus, the concept is no different than what the blockchain w/o BTC proponents are arguing which is somehow that the MC can function w/o the currency units. 

one of Bitcoin's main strengths is forcing current players to play according to the rules as they are which is the MC working in concert with BTC as a self contained financial system.  this focuses all development onto the MC to maximize innovation and returns to miners and participants in the long run which is needed b/c of the transition to a tx fee economy.  anything that allows innovation to happen off the MC risks devaluing the entire Bitcoin economy.  the whitepaper already said that current Bitcoiners could be forced to migrate to a SC if it takes over which would be a disaster, imo.

i'd also argue that Bitcoin is in a perfect Nash Equilibrium at the current time.  i think we've also all agreed that SC's will be disruptive to the mining equilibrium.  anything that disrupts that equilibrium will either be ignored or attacked, imo.  hence, i doubt that SC's will get a majority of miners to MM.  i'd welcome the evidence you say that shows otherwise.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 11:30:07 PM
 #22609



that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


BTC deposited on an sidechain are parked in an address owned by the sidechain, all the trading is just on its own public side-blockchain.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the sidechain, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


You're neglecting the friction I mentioned above. Also, when mtgox blows up, "someone" has  those coin. When a SC blows,  those coins will be gone.

Let me also introduce  another concept that represents my assessment of what will occur. Miners will not support SC's because ultimately SC's will be an unknown risk to their business model. They won't support that uncertainty. That's just my opinion.

You can withdraw from mtGox only if Karpeles allow it. You can withdraw from SC if you can create proof that you own pKey in SC.  It is human's will vs proof of math.

SC does not need a lot of miners. SC can timestamp transactions(whole side-blockchain) in bitcoin blockchain. (Same as CP does)

SC's require ideally 100% of current Bitcoin miners to MM to equal the security of the MC itself.  anything less represents a security vulnerability.  SC's are also based on POW (at least the spvp model is which is what i'm talking about)

the "proof of lock" needed to exit the SC requires that it be mined and presented back to the spvp.  if the SC is being 51% attacked, then this won't happen and your scBTC will be stuck on the SC and therefore your locked up BTC on the MC will never be unlocked.
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
April 08, 2015, 11:37:27 PM
 #22610

now that the concept of the Bitcoin unit being inextricably linked to the blockchain is finally being better understood, the next logical extension of that concept is that sidechains make no sense.  for all of the reasons i, and Adrian, have been arguing for months on end late last year.

No, its a well known logic axiom that the positive does not imply the contrapositive.

In other words, yes, the blockchain needs the bitcoin token.  But that does not imply that Bitcoin needs the blockchain.  Ok, ok, Bitcoin obviously needs the Bitcoin Blockchain to exist as it contains the history of the token's value appreciation and forms the foundation of its awesome features.  So what we are really asking is "does Bitcoin need to use the blockchain exclusively?"

Well can Bitcoins be traded off chain?  Of course.  Judging by exchange volumes it seems that most transfers (trades) already occur off chain.

A sidechain is just a decentralized way to make off-chain transfers.  Judging by what's going on on exchanges, if sidechains work they'll be popular even if their sole use is to decentralize some of the currently-existing centralized solutions (changetip?).

I think that there are very limited uses for a blockchain without an independently valued token (i.e. not a fiat representation token).  I have discussed some in this thread.  But in the ultimate egg-on-face for all the naysayers, I think we'll discover countless uses for a digital value token (aka bitcoin) and our ability to deploy crypto-currencies into these applications will actually be hindered by the inconvenience of the blockchain.  Sidechains (if they end up viable) are an attempt to reduce this inconvenience by opening up development of the blockchain, but keeping the token.



The Bitcoin token is a mental shortcut we use to manage the money is memory idea. What I'm saying is your Bitcoin private keys are the tools you use to control a percent of the Bitcoin blockchain. How many Bitcoin you own is common way of saying I manage X% of the value ledger (the total potential of Bitcoin blockchain) . Bitcoin wouldn't need bitcoin tokens, if there was another way to manage your % of the blockchain. And miners wouldn't need to mine bitcoin if they could mine direct control of a small % of the blockchain with every block reward.

You are making the mistake that the token has value, no the value of the token is that it represents the Bitcoin Blockchain, if you want Bitcoin to be the biggest value ledger you have to use it. Trusting your private keys to be managed by SPV proof in the Bitcoin protocol so you can move value over to another token, is abandoning Bitcoin, the risk this poses to Bitcoin is the economic majority may choose a sidechain over Bitcoin blockchai with different (improved by there reckoning) economic rules.

I for one would rather they had just one option and that is to transfer value using the Bitcoin blockchain.




Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812


View Profile
April 09, 2015, 12:13:19 AM
 #22611

An article about applepay, not specially interesting, but I noticed this:

Unlike the consumer electronics business where Apple regularly rolls out new computers or phones in dozens of countries at once, there is no such thing as a unified payments market.

Each country is inhabited by often warring banks, credit card associations, telecom operators and retailers, while payment preferences and regulatory regimes can vary widely.

"Every market will have different local players, different partnerships, different local standards, different economics, different levels of cooperation," said Morgan Stanley technology analyst Andrew Humphrey.


...while wondering, with a twinkle in my eye, who can change this?

The article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/08/us-apple-payments-international-idUSKBN0MZ18F20150408

smooth
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1596



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 12:21:11 AM
 #22612



that's not at all what is happening.  BTC deposited on an exchange are parked in an address owned by the exchange.  all the trading is just on its own internal DB.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the exchange, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


BTC deposited on an sidechain are parked in an address owned by the sidechain, all the trading is just on its own public side-blockchain.  when an owner wants to withdraw from the sidechain, it simply draws from the pooled address and sends back to the owner's personal address.  none of the BTC has EVER left the blockchain.


You're neglecting the friction I mentioned above. Also, when mtgox blows up, "someone" has  those coin. When a SC blows,  those coins will be gone.

Let me also introduce  another concept that represents my assessment of what will occur. Miners will not support SC's because ultimately SC's will be an unknown risk to their business model. They won't support that uncertainty. That's just my opinion.

You can withdraw from mtGox only if Karpeles allow it. You can withdraw from SC if you can create proof that you own pKey in SC.  It is human's will vs proof of math.

SC does not need a lot of miners. SC can timestamp transactions(whole side-blockchain) in bitcoin blockchain. (Same as CP does)

SC's require ideally 100% of current Bitcoin miners to MM to equal the security of the MC itself.  anything less represents a security vulnerability.  SC's are also based on POW (at least the spvp model is which is what i'm talking about)

I don't think the "security" is "equal" even with 100% merge mining. Yes the hash rate is equal which makes it equally secure against the specific case of a pure outside hash rate attack. But the fact remains that at any time those MC miners can decide to stop merged mining at little to no cost to themselves, making the merge mined coin insecure. If I'm an attacker the first thing I do is give a bribe to pools to stop their merged mining, and it won't take a lot because they're not making much/anything on the merge mining to begin with. Perhaps this can even be done in an anonymous trustless manner with some sort of smart contract (seems likely if scripts allow SPV proofs)

justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
April 09, 2015, 12:27:32 AM
 #22613

listen to this bullshit Karen Gifford of Ripple Labs spews forth to the Calif Assembly @14:00.
Chris Larson also says he doesn't believe we need a new currency:

https://clyp.it/zdpzphmd

Ripple is the enemy.
Does David Schwartz still hangs out on this forum?

The last time I talked to him was at the 2013 San Jose conference.

I wonder if he knew back then he was going to sell out.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 12:29:39 AM
 #22614

listen to this bullshit Karen Gifford of Ripple Labs spews forth to the Calif Assembly @14:00.
Chris Larson also says he doesn't believe we need a new currency:

https://clyp.it/zdpzphmd

Ripple is the enemy.
Does David Schwartz still hangs out on this forum?

The last time I talked to him was at the 2013 San Jose conference.

I wonder if he knew back then he was going to sell out.

he was manning the Ripple booth at the time.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 12:45:32 AM
 #22615

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features/improvements to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn bitcoins (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig (P2SH), smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 12:51:37 AM
 #22616

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn them (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig, smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.


i just referenced that talk above.

i have a real problem with slide 19 that shows "reversion" or getting your BTC back from the scBTC.  as i said above, during a 51% SC attack, the last thing the attacker (miner) will do is include your proof of lock in a block to let you off the SC.  he either wants to steal the scBTC or destroy them.  most likely the latter, b/c the mere happenstance of the attack will likely destroy all exchange value of scBTC.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 01:02:32 AM
 #22617

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn them (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig, smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.


i just referenced that talk above.

i have a real problem with slide 19 that shows "reversion" or getting your BTC back from the scBTC.  as i said above, during a 51% SC attack, the last thing the attacker (miner) will do is include your proof of lock in a block to let you off the SC.  he either wants to steal the scBTC or destroy them.  most likely the latter, b/c the mere happenstance of the attack will likely destroy all exchange value of scBTC.

Without knowing the specific mechanics of the peg it is meaningless to discuss whether or not the reversion would be successful in the case of mining (or other) attacks. E.g. there might be a timelock on the whole sidechain, so that it is like a 10 year or 99 year leasehold arrangement. There are many ways this could go, dismissing SC outright is denying experimenting and innovation that could solve some of bitcoins problems in tangential ways, even if sidechains are never a success. To me, getting militant against SC seems a bit like the goldbuggery with respect to bitcoins being able to have value as a monetary unit. Keeping an open mind can pay huge dividends, dangers and risks can be mitigated when they are apparent, knowable and quantified.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 01:08:04 AM
 #22618

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn them (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig, smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.


i just referenced that talk above.

i have a real problem with slide 19 that shows "reversion" or getting your BTC back from the scBTC.  as i said above, during a 51% SC attack, the last thing the attacker (miner) will do is include your proof of lock in a block to let you off the SC.  he either wants to steal the scBTC or destroy them.  most likely the latter, b/c the mere happenstance of the attack will likely destroy all exchange value of scBTC.

Without knowing the specific mechanics of the peg it is meaningless to discuss whether or not the reversion would be successful in the case of mining (or other) attacks. E.g. there might be a timelock on the whole sidechain, so that it is like a 10 year or 99 year leasehold arrangement. There are many ways this could go, dismissing SC outright is denying experimenting and innovation that could solve some of bitcoins problems in tangential ways, even if sidechains are never a success. To me, getting militant against SC seems a bit like the goldbuggery with respect to bitcoins being able to have value as a monetary unit. Keeping an open mind can pay huge dividends, dangers and risks can be mitigated when they are apparent, knowable and quantified.

fair enough.  but the flipside is also true; holding out unrealistic promises & capabilities should not be used as an excuse to block or derail much needed MC development that may in fact be more ideal.  it never hurts to discuss these concepts.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 01:40:00 AM
 #22619

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn them (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig, smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.


i just referenced that talk above.

i have a real problem with slide 19 that shows "reversion" or getting your BTC back from the scBTC.  as i said above, during a 51% SC attack, the last thing the attacker (miner) will do is include your proof of lock in a block to let you off the SC.  he either wants to steal the scBTC or destroy them.  most likely the latter, b/c the mere happenstance of the attack will likely destroy all exchange value of scBTC.

Without knowing the specific mechanics of the peg it is meaningless to discuss whether or not the reversion would be successful in the case of mining (or other) attacks. E.g. there might be a timelock on the whole sidechain, so that it is like a 10 year or 99 year leasehold arrangement. There are many ways this could go, dismissing SC outright is denying experimenting and innovation that could solve some of bitcoins problems in tangential ways, even if sidechains are never a success. To me, getting militant against SC seems a bit like the goldbuggery with respect to bitcoins being able to have value as a monetary unit. Keeping an open mind can pay huge dividends, dangers and risks can be mitigated when they are apparent, knowable and quantified.

fair enough.  but the flipside is also true; holding out unrealistic promises & capabilities should not be used as an excuse to block or derail much needed MC development that may in fact be more ideal.  it never hurts to discuss these concepts.

absolutely, e.g; a chunk of MC dev work is currently being funded by a sidechain research company Wink, and appears to be the only company funding core infrastructure of MC with a long term view (besides Bitpay's jgarzik) and stated commitments to open, permissionless platforms for innovation, in fact, that is their view of what SC will also allow to stop the energy bleed into alts.

this makes an interesting listen in retrospect (also before Blockstream was announced or fully gestated i expect)
https://letstalkbitcoin.com/e99-sidechain-innovation/

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
April 09, 2015, 01:56:51 AM
 #22620

Here's another way to think of bitcoin, and sidechains. Picture that bitcoins are like digital real estate and you can already add features to your plot of real estate; create coloured coins, burn them (lock irretrievably) to prove mastercoin/counterparty ownership, multisig, smart scripting conditions, etc. People are already building things on their bitcoin plots that increase the value of their own piece, but also the whole value. A sidechain is just another "building project" that is anticipated to increase the value of their piece of sand, and most likely everyone elses.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.g6eb72e55c_0395
see slide 15-19 specifically.


i just referenced that talk above.

i have a real problem with slide 19 that shows "reversion" or getting your BTC back from the scBTC.  as i said above, during a 51% SC attack, the last thing the attacker (miner) will do is include your proof of lock in a block to let you off the SC.  he either wants to steal the scBTC or destroy them.  most likely the latter, b/c the mere happenstance of the attack will likely destroy all exchange value of scBTC.

Without knowing the specific mechanics of the peg it is meaningless to discuss whether or not the reversion would be successful in the case of mining (or other) attacks. E.g. there might be a timelock on the whole sidechain, so that it is like a 10 year or 99 year leasehold arrangement. There are many ways this could go, dismissing SC outright is denying experimenting and innovation that could solve some of bitcoins problems in tangential ways, even if sidechains are never a success. To me, getting militant against SC seems a bit like the goldbuggery with respect to bitcoins being able to have value as a monetary unit. Keeping an open mind can pay huge dividends, dangers and risks can be mitigated when they are apparent, knowable and quantified.

fair enough.  but the flipside is also true; holding out unrealistic promises & capabilities should not be used as an excuse to block or derail much needed MC development that may in fact be more ideal.  it never hurts to discuss these concepts.

absolutely, e.g; a chunk of MC dev work is currently being funded by a sidechain research company Wink, and appears to be the only company funding core infrastructure of MC with a long term view (besides Bitpay's jgarzik) and stated commitments to open, permissionless platforms for innovation, in fact, that is their view of what SC will also allow to stop the energy bleed into alts.

this makes an interesting listen in retrospect (also before Blockstream was announced or fully gestated i expect)
https://letstalkbitcoin.com/e99-sidechain-innovation/

well, once again, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

in that LTB interview, Adam talks about altcoin dilution of Bitcoin. while true at the time, i believe it has become much less so.  many are dying out in this bear mkt w/o SC's and that is good for Bitcoin. 

also, i don't see Gavin going anywhere despite whatever happens to TBF and he confirms this here:  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31rgtb/when_the_foundation_shuts_down_who_pays_gavin/cq4cqq5  and i'd bet this applies to Wladimir as well.  being a Bitcoin core dev is a coveted position whether you're formally paid or not.

if Blockstream weren't a for profit entity that has openly stated a desire to create all sorts of SC's, even for gvt currencies, based on a needed source code change then i might understand the concept.  but that's not how it is.  and no one can accuse me of being an altcoin proponent as an excuse for my objections.

and as far as premature discussions are concerned, it's not like we don't know about the majority of what will be be presented.  i mean, Adam was here in this very thread openly discussing all their plans for like a month and a half?  we know alot about the concepts involved.  why not debate them?
Pages: « 1 ... 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 [1131] 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!