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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1953579 times)
solex
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May 09, 2015, 10:23:59 AM
 #23681

Since then, Rusty's LN paper has appeared, and there is even less reason for delay in buying time, because there is a very real chance that a high-volume layer can be built over Bitcoin while keeping main-chain usage to a minimum. Why won't the devs buy a few years?


sorry I've 0 time to contribute to discussion to any degree of usefulness, just a minor nitpick Lightning Network isn't a Rusty Russel's creation,  Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja are the main authors. That said Rusty provide a fantastic series of posts explaining the key concepts behind LN: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450.

One last thing Rusty was recently hired by blockstream.

Thanks for the correction!
And the last point answers something that was puzzling me.

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May 09, 2015, 12:05:02 PM
 #23682

Since then, Rusty's LN paper has appeared, and there is even less reason for delay in buying time, because there is a very real chance that a high-volume layer can be built over Bitcoin while keeping main-chain usage to a minimum. Why won't the devs buy a few years?


sorry I've 0 time to contribute to discussion to any degree of usefulness, just a minor nitpick Lightning Network isn't a Rusty Russel's creation,  Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja are the main authors. That said Rusty provide a fantastic series of posts explaining the key concepts behind LN: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450.

One last thing Rusty was recently hired by blockstream.

Thanks for the correction!
And the last point answers something that was puzzling me.

this is the public post where he announced the move form IBM to blockstream:

https://plus.google.com/103188246877163594460/posts/eEeJxNaajWg

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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May 09, 2015, 12:25:16 PM
 #23683

You've always been the disingenuous debater in every discussion I've ever had with you.
Cypherdoc expresses the security model (economic incentives to ensure miner honesty) nearly word-for-word out of the Bitcoin whitepaper, you accuse him of violating the (incorrectly) cite the whitepaper to say that he's wrong, I quote the section in question, and then you accuse me of being disingenuous?

Just keep on doing what you're doing - your own dishonesty is making my case better than anything I could say.
Bagatell
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May 09, 2015, 01:04:24 PM
 #23684

You've always been the disingenuous debater in every discussion I've ever had with you.
Cypherdoc expresses the security model (economic incentives to ensure miner honesty) nearly word-for-word out of the Bitcoin whitepaper, you accuse him of violating the (incorrectly) cite the whitepaper to say that he's wrong, I quote the section in question, and then you accuse me of being disingenuous?

Just keep on doing what you're doing - your own dishonesty is making my case better than anything I could say.

It's particularly rich coming from someone that changes their ID every 10 minutes.
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May 09, 2015, 01:46:13 PM
 #23685

It's particularly rich coming from someone that changes their ID every 10 minutes.
Citation needed
Bagatell
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May 09, 2015, 02:06:26 PM
 #23686

It's particularly rich coming from someone that changes their ID every 10 minutes.
Citation needed

https://bullbearanalytics.com/2014/09/23/whats-going-monero/
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May 09, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
 #23687

What does that have to do with me?
dEBRUYNE
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May 09, 2015, 02:20:29 PM
 #23688

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

This is already implemented in certain altcoins, for instance the CryptoNote family whereby Monero currently is the biggest (ignore Bytecoin, it had a 80% premine which actually is a danger to anonymity). I personally don't know the details of it, but this is what I could find:

Quote from: pinhead26 (reddit)
I think Cryptonote (Monero) actually adjusts the miner's reward depending on the size of his block, and updates the block size limit like this:

(median of past n blocks, with constant lower-limit) * 2

if I'm reading this correctly:

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/c41d14b2aa3fc883d45299add1cbb8ebbe6c9ed8/src/cryptonote_core/blockchain.cpp#L2230-L2244

Quote from: tacotime (reddit)
Thats correct, our block size is dynamically scaled by the size of the previous blocks with no hard limit for the block size. Its been this way since the launch in early 2014. There is also a dynamic coinbase penalty above a size threshold to prevent people from making too large of blocks, too quickly. Gmaxwell and some of the other bitcore developers argued against such a design, saying that it gave too much power to miners to decide the size of the blocks.


source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35azxk/screw_the_hard_limit_lets_change_the_block_size/cr2phqd
note: Tacotime is one of the 7 core team members of Monero


Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
Bagatell
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May 09, 2015, 02:27:50 PM
 #23689


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.

justusranvier
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May 09, 2015, 02:29:20 PM
 #23690


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.
Ah. That makes a lot more sense.

I completely understand Gavin's tweet the other day about losing sleep.
cypherdoc
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May 09, 2015, 03:26:36 PM
 #23691

since noone mentioned it yet: https://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/596622731711352832?s=09

Yes, an actually decent suggestion from Mark Frappacino.

This is already implemented in certain altcoins, for instance the CryptoNote family whereby Monero currently is the biggest (ignore Bytecoin, it had a 80% premine which actually is a danger to anonymity). I personally don't know the details of it, but this is what I could find:

Quote from: pinhead26 (reddit)
I think Cryptonote (Monero) actually adjusts the miner's reward depending on the size of his block, and updates the block size limit like this:

(median of past n blocks, with constant lower-limit) * 2

if I'm reading this correctly:

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/c41d14b2aa3fc883d45299add1cbb8ebbe6c9ed8/src/cryptonote_core/blockchain.cpp#L2230-L2244

Quote from: tacotime (reddit)
Thats correct, our block size is dynamically scaled by the size of the previous blocks with no hard limit for the block size. Its been this way since the launch in early 2014. There is also a dynamic coinbase penalty above a size threshold to prevent people from making too large of blocks, too quickly. Gmaxwell and some of the other bitcore developers argued against such a design, saying that it gave too much power to miners to decide the size of the blocks.


source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35azxk/screw_the_hard_limit_lets_change_the_block_size/cr2phqd
note: Tacotime is one of the 7 core team members of Monero



smooth, i didn't realize you were a Monero dev.
cypherdoc
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May 09, 2015, 03:27:31 PM
 #23692


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?
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May 09, 2015, 03:29:14 PM
 #23693

I have solved the design problem. I now know the Holy Grail design we need for crypto-currency.

sure you do.
dEBRUYNE
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May 09, 2015, 03:39:33 PM
 #23694


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?

Nope, he didn't. He disappeared right after his own set deadline expired, so basically it was pure FUD. The reason(s) behind it is/are still not clear till this day.  

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
cypherdoc
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May 09, 2015, 03:44:18 PM
 #23695


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?

Nope, he didn't. He disappeared right after his own set deadline expired, so basically it was pure FUD. The reason(s) behind it is/are still not clear till this day.  

for the most part, i've always thought of BCX as an asset to Bitcoin mainly as an enforcer to altcoins.  not that i condone him causing financial pain for altcoin participants but in the sense that he is enforcing Satoshi's principles on a raw economic level, ie, "expect to be attacked if you stray away from first principles".

you have to give him credit for at least warning the Monero community that he intended to attack.  it sounds like it gave them an opportunity to mitigate and/or tune their code to prevent such a thing.  maybe that's why it never transpired?
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May 09, 2015, 03:48:49 PM
 #23696


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?

Nope, he didn't. He disappeared right after his own set deadline expired, so basically it was pure FUD. The reason(s) behind it is/are still not clear till this day.  

for the most part, i've always thought of BCX as an asset to Bitcoin mainly as an enforcer to altcoins.  not that i condone him causing financial pain for altcoin participants but in the sense that he is enforcing Satoshi's principles on a raw economic level, ie, "expect to be attacked if you stray away from first principles".

you have to give him credit for at least warning the Monero community that he intended to attack.  it sounds like it gave them an opportunity to mitigate and/or tune their code to prevent such a thing.  maybe that's why it never transpired?

Could also be it, I don't know the details of it though. Also, there were doubts about the authenticity of the account, some people suspected the account was sold before the "threat".

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
cypherdoc
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May 09, 2015, 03:53:04 PM
 #23697


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?

Nope, he didn't. He disappeared right after his own set deadline expired, so basically it was pure FUD. The reason(s) behind it is/are still not clear till this day.  

for the most part, i've always thought of BCX as an asset to Bitcoin mainly as an enforcer to altcoins.  not that i condone him causing financial pain for altcoin participants but in the sense that he is enforcing Satoshi's principles on a raw economic level, ie, "expect to be attacked if you stray away from first principles".

you have to give him credit for at least warning the Monero community that he intended to attack.  it sounds like it gave them an opportunity to mitigate and/or tune their code to prevent such a thing.  maybe that's why it never transpired?

Could also be it, I don't know the details of it though. Also, there were doubts about the authenticity of the account, some people suspected the account was sold before the "threat".

that Monero chart looks brutal:

dEBRUYNE
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May 09, 2015, 04:01:08 PM
 #23698


It's about TPTB_need_war, AKA AnonyMint, AKA TheFascistMind.



that was an interesting read.  BCX has a known rep for attacking altcoins over the years.

so he never successfully attacked Monero then?

Nope, he didn't. He disappeared right after his own set deadline expired, so basically it was pure FUD. The reason(s) behind it is/are still not clear till this day.  

for the most part, i've always thought of BCX as an asset to Bitcoin mainly as an enforcer to altcoins.  not that i condone him causing financial pain for altcoin participants but in the sense that he is enforcing Satoshi's principles on a raw economic level, ie, "expect to be attacked if you stray away from first principles".

you have to give him credit for at least warning the Monero community that he intended to attack.  it sounds like it gave them an opportunity to mitigate and/or tune their code to prevent such a thing.  maybe that's why it never transpired?

Could also be it, I don't know the details of it though. Also, there were doubts about the authenticity of the account, some people suspected the account was sold before the "threat".

that Monero chart looks brutal:

--snip--

You are missing the end, I rather prefer this chart:



Btw, most altcoin charts look like this, when btc declines, most alts decline even worse. Also, the first top of 0.01 was during the crazy pre-mintpal pump. I wasn't around back then so I hope smooth can elaborate more on this matter, but for some reason it was insanely pumped by whales back then.

Furthermore, unlike most other altcoins, Monero was fairly launched (http://devtome.com./doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins#monero). It has a relatively high inflation though, which could also be a reason for the "bearish/declining" chart.

PS: Remember that Monero was launched during a BTC bearmarket, chart would probably looked a whole lot different when launched during a bullmarket.

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
Zangelbert Bingledack
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May 09, 2015, 04:22:16 PM
 #23699



Has anyone reddited this yet? With the right title it should get 100 or more upvotes.
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May 09, 2015, 04:47:15 PM
 #23700

You've always been the disingenuous debater in every discussion I've ever had with you.

Cypherdoc expresses the security model (economic incentives to ensure miner honesty) nearly word-for-word out of the Bitcoin whitepaper, you accuse him of violating the (incorrectly) cite the whitepaper to say that he's wrong, I quote the section in question, and then you accuse me of being disingenuous?

Just keep on doing what you're doing - your own dishonesty is making my case better than anything I could say.

Yeah just keep on doing what you're doing dickhead (do you expect me to be nice after you intentionally slander me twice and both times you are in error?).

There you are being either "not the sharpest tool in the shed" or intentionally disingenuous again. There is no correlation between what Cypherdoc wrote and the whitepaper....

2.  i think that the majority of ppl in this world want to be honest and wish to live in a society that has order.  no one wants to live in chaos.  everybody loses.  in order for society to continue to progress and evolve, order, dependability, and a semblance of honesty is needed.  thus, in a system with so much potential to do good, like Bitcoin, the overwhelming desire is for participants to want to do what makes the system thrive.  to the extent that cheating, dishonesty, and colluding erodes confidence and threatens that goal, most participants will avoid those activities.

That is the same faith we put into a top-down democracy. Fact is a power vacuum sucks in those who can maximize the exploitation of the power vacuum.

You are violating the fundamental tenet of Satoshi's white paper which is decentralized trust, meaning we don't have to trust that people are honest.
...

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