Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[cypherdoc]

in your base case, a 1:1 peg, there is no coin issuance, no block subsidy, so no incentive to jump boat

Transactions will happen on the sidechain and can charge tx fees, all of which are able to be converted right back to BTC if wanted. The only incentive to jump boat would be to use a feature.

go back and read my comments from today about this.  there seems to be several reasons for a BTC holder to jump to scBTC immediately once a whale starts pumping thru the peg and the price starts rising. 

don't forget other speculators who just want to use their fiat on an exchange to buy (pile on) a rising asset (scBTC) with significant growth potential.

[1714188522]

1714188522

[1714188522]

1714188522

[1714188522]

1714188522

[brg444]

i just changed my base case according to a helpful comment from HB.  so what?  it doesn't invalidate the rest of my arguments.

oh nothing, just pointing you moving goal post again. i'm impressed how your imagination can strech to such length to try and poke hole into sidechains.

it reminds of reading logs of the forum thread where satoshi first posted the paper.

[cypherdoc]

i just changed my base case according to a helpful comment from HB.  so what?  it doesn't invalidate the rest of my arguments.

oh nothing, just pointing you moving goal post again. i'm impressed how your imagination can strech to such length to try and poke hole into sidechains.

it reminds of reading logs of the forum thread where satoshi first posted the paper.

and i'm impressed at what an idiot you are continuing to shill for SC's and your willingness to bury your head in the sand.  

and why and how did you just happen to pop here on the day the SC paper was released specifically countering my every point and trying to denigrate my position by pointing to the Reddit AMA despite the clear and positive/upvote point count i got?  one might think you're associated with them in some way.  

in case you hadn't noticed, all of us here are trying to seek the truth despite your presence.

[brg444]

go back and read my comments from today about this.  there seems to be several reasons for a BTC holder to jump to scBTC immediately once a whale starts pumping thru the peg and the price starts rising.

you do realise everyday the economy grows your whale scenario becomes less and less likely

[brg444]

and i'm impressed at what an idiot you are continuing to shill for SC's and your willingness to bury your head in the sand.  

and why and how did you just happen to pop here on the day the SC paper was released specifically countering my every point and trying to denigrate my position by pointing to the Reddit AMA despite the clear and positive/upvote point count i got?  one might think you're associated with them in some way.  

in case you hadn't noticed, all of us here are trying to seek the truth despite your presence.

please don't start lieing through your teeths. I have read every single posts from that AMA and your posts were hanging in the sewers of most sub-topics and casually dismissed when engaged by the sidechain developers

you are a fear mongerer who tries to stand on arguments that hold no ground and scenarios from fairy tales.

[cypherdoc]

go back and read my comments from today about this.  there seems to be several reasons for a BTC holder to jump to scBTC immediately once a whale starts pumping thru the peg and the price starts rising.

you do realise everyday the economy grows your whale scenario becomes less and less likely

not at all.  the real key is that a SC will be a nascent currency plus an innovation with plenty of potential.  a whale could easily jerk the price upwards and then get follow on from other whales or speculators willing to be the new early adopters of a "better" currency.

[cypherdoc]

and i'm impressed at what an idiot you are continuing to shill for SC's and your willingness to bury your head in the sand.  

and why and how did you just happen to pop here on the day the SC paper was released specifically countering my every point and trying to denigrate my position by pointing to the Reddit AMA despite the clear and positive/upvote point count i got?  one might think you're associated with them in some way.  

in case you hadn't noticed, all of us here are trying to seek the truth despite your presence.

please don't start lieing through your teeths. I have read every single posts from that AMA and your posts were hanging in the sewers of most sub-topics and casually dismissed when engaged by the sidechain developers

you are a fear mongerer who tries to stand on arguments that hold no ground and scenarios from fairy tales.

you seem quite threatened.

i suppose one could say the same for me but i'm not the one trying to change the system for a new for profit company i'm participating in.

[dillpicklechips]

in your base case, a 1:1 peg, there is no coin issuance, no block subsidy, so no incentive to jump boat

Transactions will happen on the sidechain and can charge tx fees, all of which are able to be converted right back to BTC if wanted. The only incentive to jump boat would be to use a feature.

go back and read my comments from today about this.  there seems to be several reasons for a BTC holder to jump to scBTC immediately once a whale starts pumping thru the peg and the price starts rising. 

don't forget other speculators who just want to use their fiat on an exchange to buy (pile on) a rising asset (scBTC) with significant growth potential.

I tried but I don't why "whale starts pumping" means in the context of sidechains. The peg is built-in. If a sidechain was pegged 1:1 how would a whale cause the sidechain to change in value and why would people pay a premium as apposed to locking BTC themselves to use the sidechain?

[cypherdoc]

and i'm impressed at what an idiot you are continuing to shill for SC's and your willingness to bury your head in the sand.  

and why and how did you just happen to pop here on the day the SC paper was released specifically countering my every point and trying to denigrate my position by pointing to the Reddit AMA despite the clear and positive/upvote point count i got?  one might think you're associated with them in some way.  

in case you hadn't noticed, all of us here are trying to seek the truth despite your presence.

please don't start lieing through your teeths. I have read every single posts from that AMA and your posts were hanging in the sewers of most sub-topics and casually dismissed when engaged by the sidechain developers

you are a fear mongerer who tries to stand on arguments that hold no ground and scenarios from fairy tales.

are you associated with their company in any way?

[cbeast]

Time out. This is all hypotheticals. Rather than butt heads, go in different directions and may the best ideas win. There's no limit to new ideas.

[brg444]

not at all.  the real key is that a SC will be a nascent currency plus an innovation with plenty of potential.  a whale could easily jerk the price upwards and then get follow on from other whales or speculators willing to be the new early adopters of a "better" currency.

Why have they not done it with an alt-coin then  

Much like smooth has indicated, you worst case scenario is quite literally an alt-coin taking over.

Sidechain didn't create that problem. No your farfetched "risk-free put" is not a valid argument, it is full of holes.

The only risk-free position is on the BTC mainchain.

At this point the only risk we witness a migration of the kind you suggest is if the destination is considered by the market to be as secure as BTC and offering an innovation so important the value proposition is too large to ignore. It is terribly naive to believe a "whale" could ignite such a movement.

I don't think there is any predicament at all. If the side chain is objectively a better chain as determined by stakeholders, then it is simply time to move on. There is not necessarily any reason try to try to backport everything to the original chain. BTC will have fulfilled its useful purpose of giving birth to the improved scBTC/BTC2.

you know what, it turns out I agree with this 100% and this is another reality for which cypherdoc has no answer

[cbeast]

If you offer a demurrage coin as an added incentive for an SC, you won't be perceived as a pump and dump altcoin. Businesses would like the idea of moving currency.

[brg444]

are you associated with their company in any way?

the only association I have with them is that I recognize the potential added value of sidechains and would like to give the runner a chance considering its potential upside could far exceed the doomsday scenario you propose.

[brg444]

I tried but I don't why "whale starts pumping" means in the context of sidechains. The peg is built-in. If a sidechain was pegged 1:1 how would a whale cause the sidechain to change in value and why would people pay a premium as apposed to locking BTC themselves to use the sidechain?

he's scared whales are gonna pump the better coin  

[cypherdoc]

not at all.  the real key is that a SC will be a nascent currency plus an innovation with plenty of potential.  a whale could easily jerk the price upwards and then get follow on from other whales or speculators willing to be the new early adopters of a "better" currency.

Why have they not done it with an alt-coin then  

b/c they want free merge mining from Bitcoin miners to get started.

Much like smooth has indicated, you worst case scenario is quite literally an alt-coin taking over.

Sidechain didn't create that problem. No you farfetched "risk-free put" is not a valid argument, it is full of holes.

feel free to point them out then with logical arguments instead of crying FUD.

The only risk-free position is on the BTC mainchain.

At this point the only risk we witness a migration of the kind you suggest is if the destination is considered by the market to be as secure as BTC and offering an innovation so important the value proposition is too large to ignore. It is terribly naive to believe a "whale" could ignite such a movement.

if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

I don't think there is any predicament at all. If the side chain is objectively a better chain as determined by stakeholders, then it is simply time to move on. There is not necessarily any reason try to try to backport everything to the original chain. BTC will have fulfilled its useful purpose of giving birth to the improved scBTC/BTC2.

you know what, it turns out I agree with this 100% and this is another reality for which cypherdoc has no answer

lol.  what?  smooth just verified my point.  if a SC proves superior, everyone will indeed move over to it.  now, i for one, think that will be quite disruptive if we have to break out our cold storage wallet everytime a new innovation comes along forcing us to move to a new SC.  that will introduce all sorts of security and identity risks, not to mention volatility.

btw, you're the one who concluded that an appearance of scBTC on a SC would cause a price rise and be indicative of a successful innovation.

and you didn't answer my question; are you associated with Blockstream in any way?

[brg444]

if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused 

I'm tired of going in circles with you 

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

[cypherdoc]

if Blockstream is successful at convincing mining pools to freely merge mining from the beginning, the SC can function securely while cultivating the innovation.  once proven stable, if i were a whale, i'd go for the pump knowing i have a risk free put.

Are you confused  

I'm tired of going in circles with you  

Remember your "new" base case is one where there is now a sidechain block subsidy with issuance of new assets. these are not secured by the proposed merged mining.

do you even understand merge mining?  it can be used to secure a chain with or w/o the creation of new sidecoins.  look at Namecoin generation: MM'd by Bitcoin miners.  look at Dogecoin generation:  MM'd by LTC miners.

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

the risk free put is only for BTC converted to scBTC, which is precisely what the whale will be pumping thru the peg.  that's what matters.

[brg444]

and you didn't answer my question; are you associated with Blockstream in any way?

No, sir.

[cbeast]

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

Logical, you trade risk for benefit.

[cypherdoc]

The other problem with this new twist to your "base case" is it brings a very concerning security risk. Do not fool yourself. Leaving the BTC main chain for a sidechain securing its own issued asset is NOT a "risk free put"

Logical, you trade risk for benefit.

but it's not even a risk once you've determined the SC is stable and not susceptible to a frank bug .  and that's b/c of the 2 way peg, ie, a risk free put ripe for exploitation.