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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806980 times)
sidhujag
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October 18, 2014, 10:39:45 PM
 #14021

So who can explain how Bitshares or Counterparty is going to issue shares on the Blockchain?

Will a company issuing 1M shares attach these permanently to 1M Satoshi's? How does the market trade an independent value for the shares if a Satoshi goes to $100 per or if a tx free goes to $100 per?

Bitsharesx is an eco system... that allows you to create assets, some are backed by a peg and some are not.. freely traded. The ones backed by a peg (costing about 300k btsx right now) are meant to be tracked via a feed fed in through the delegates, which gets itself around security issues of POS (Delegate-POS is the algo name). Which Larimer/Buterin seem to agree is the best one moving forward away from POW.

Anyways one of these assets backed by pegs is the bitUSD which is meant to track USD so a price feed is fed in(how many USD each BTSX is worth on an average of exchange price feeds) so to keep bitUSD trading at roughly $1, and thus people can trade btsx for bitUSD and vice versa knowing that they are essentially going to and from USD because you will be able to trade bitUSD back to USD at some time (for legal reasons this was left out until third parties come along and offer this service which are regulated as money transmitters). Another one is bitBTC which tracks BTC... so you can go to and from BTC to BTSX.. same way as going from USD to BTSX and back.. however BTC <--> BTSX. The idea is that many businesses can use bitUSD to offer services to customers and be able to transfer these bitUSD across the chain quickly and efficiently without having to pay fees , and use the built-in bitshares privacy features for annonymous transactions etc etc you get the picture...

There are 101 oracles (and more lining up as backups incase of some going down) doing this feeding and yet it is a more decentralized model than bitcoin (in the way of large concentrated mining pools). These oracles or delegates get paid to sign blocks as a job. Because of this there is incentive to provide this service.. as it is profitable to do so at these prices. In order to become a delegate you must set up a delegate as yourself and get voted to become an official bitshares delegate.. people have to beleive in you and there is an in-chain voting mechanism used to figure out who are qualified to become delegates based on popularity of votes (there are obvious safe-gaurds to avoid people from getting them selves voted in easier).

It is meant to work in conjuction of a currency as bitUSD is doing.. and bitBTC... it is not meant to work as a currency itself as the chain is used for mor ethan just a tx ledger for payments (breaking satoshi's golden rule)... however if thought about in another way that it works in partership with bit coin.. in that bitcoin may be used as a currency and bitshares may be used to issue assets/stocks/companies that operate within clearly defined rules without corruption then it makes sense on where to draw lines between bitcoin and bitshares... and IMO it is aptly named in that regard.. bitshares for share issuance and bitcoin for coin transactions and spending.

You might ask why would I transfer my BTC to bitBTC? Well the incentive is that you get paid interest by holding, through a decentralized solution. If you hold atleast a few months then it is in the range of 10-15% per year right now.. better than any bank. It is the only true form of interest payment for bitcoins because you hold your keys.. while all other solutions cause you to send BTC to someone else thus the keys controlling your coins change... in this method you hold your bitBTC keys the same way you hold your BTC keys and essentially earn interest over time... the interest is accumulated fees that people who "short" bitUSD and other assets pay.. you can go long and short bitUSD and other assets just like any other market... market makers and arb bots do this to make money off the spreads and liquidity.. and the holders of the assets win by collecting fees.

Other fees that are paid are used to burn coins to reduce the total overall supply so anyone holding anything in btsx will become more valuable over time.
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HeliKopterBen
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October 18, 2014, 11:44:16 PM
 #14022

Nice summary Sidhujag

Bitshares in a nutshell:  take GLD, SLV, ect and replicate that on a decentralized, collateralized market.  The bitshares guys keep harping on bitusd but the real killer app IMO is bitgld, which tracks the price of gold and actually pays interest in gold.  For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency, this is the best you are going to get without having the real thing, which obviously cant be sent over a communications channel.  In fact, any asset can be turned into a currency such as bitoil.  Of course it is still in the very early experimental stages.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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October 18, 2014, 11:50:05 PM
 #14023

The bitshares guys keep harping on bitusd but the real killer app IMO is bitgld, which tracks the price of gold and actually pays interest in gold.  For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency, this is the best you are going to get without having the real thing, which obviously cant be sent over a communications channel.
This is the financial equivalent of people playing fantasy football and mistaking themselves for athletes.
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October 18, 2014, 11:59:43 PM
 #14024

The bitshares guys keep harping on bitusd but the real killer app IMO is bitgld, which tracks the price of gold and actually pays interest in gold.  For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency, this is the best you are going to get without having the real thing, which obviously cant be sent over a communications channel.
This is the financial equivalent of people playing fantasy football and mistaking themselves for athletes.

 Grin
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October 19, 2014, 12:00:00 AM
 #14025

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..
BldSwtTrs
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October 19, 2014, 12:18:54 AM
 #14026

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..
It's not gold backed. All BitAssets are backed by BTSX.

At the endgame it will allow to speculate and hedge without counterparty risk. People will also be able to earn interests on their savings while having their purchasing power store in any asset of the economy they wish, without counterparty risk. But yeah, it's just a fad.
HeliKopterBen
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October 19, 2014, 02:09:42 AM
 #14027

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..

Like i said it is the closest you are going to get.  You will always be able to exchange one bitgld for one ounce of real gold.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
sidhujag
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October 19, 2014, 02:20:09 AM
 #14028

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..
It's not gold backed. All BitAssets are backed by BTSX.

At the endgame it will allow to speculate and hedge without counterparty risk. People will also be able to earn interests on their savings while having their purchasing power store in any asset of the economy they wish, without counterparty risk. But yeah, it's just a fad.

bitBTC is not backed by btsx... you can buy bitBTC without btsx and get back out after earning interest... if you want to "short" bitBTC you need collateral in btsx to ensure you have sufficient margin to cover a loss.
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 19, 2014, 02:39:28 AM
 #14029

So who can explain how Bitshares or Counterparty is going to issue shares on the Blockchain?

Will a company issuing 1M shares attach these permanently to 1M Satoshi's? How does the market trade an independent value for the shares if a Satoshi goes to $100 per or if a tx free goes to $100 per?
For one thing if a Satoshi goes to $100 per, then it's certain the decimal point will be moved another eight places to the right long beforehand and your shares can be re-issued.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Melbustus
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October 19, 2014, 03:45:31 AM
 #14030

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..

...You will always be able to exchange one bitgld for one ounce of real gold.


Similar to how this was supposed to always be redeemable for real gold?



...that is, until the guys in charge of the gold vault said they weren't gonna do that anymore.



Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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October 19, 2014, 04:26:34 AM
 #14031

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..

Like i said it is the closest you are going to get.  You will always probably be able to exchange one bitgld for one ounce of real gold.

Fixed it for you.

Cortex7
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October 19, 2014, 04:28:48 AM
 #14032

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..

...You will always be able to exchange one bitgld for one ounce of real gold.


Similar to how this was supposed to always be redeemable for real gold?



...that is, until the guys in charge of the gold vault said they weren't gonna do that anymore.


Yup all systems based on trust tend to creep that way in the end, human nature I suppose.

Wekkel
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October 19, 2014, 05:26:51 AM
 #14033

That's why Bitcoin is so interesting. A public ledger without human interference.

Like this post? you can tip me (BTC) 1LGi2DMhectdFSkBid5srrnHk8WHgD3V1d or very WoW (Doge) D9p6FZQb1sKkq9hApy4tnjSduYfdnc74bb
HeliKopterBen
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October 19, 2014, 05:43:20 AM
 #14034

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..

...You will always be able to exchange one bitgld for one ounce of real gold.


Similar to how this was supposed to always be redeemable for real gold?



...that is, until the guys in charge of the gold vault said they weren't gonna do that anymore.




Who is in charge of bitshares?

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer


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October 19, 2014, 05:50:00 AM
 #14035

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..
It's not gold backed. All BitAssets are backed by BTSX.

At the endgame it will allow to speculate and hedge without counterparty risk. People will also be able to earn interests on their savings while having their purchasing power store in any asset of the economy they wish, without counterparty risk. But yeah, it's just a fad.

The way it reads it would seem that there is a systemic counterparty.  Also significant complexity risks.  

For example, When and if an asset fails, it is redeemed in the Bitshares used as collateral.  These Bitshares may then be sold, driving the Bitshares price down, possibly causing another collateral failure in a different asset, and so on.  Once it starts, there will likely be a rush to the exit and cause cascading, yes?

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October 19, 2014, 06:43:23 AM
 #14036


Yes.

It might be interesting to note that this process started to accelerate when Nixon took the dollar off gold.

Sound money is peoples money.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
sidhujag
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October 19, 2014, 06:55:23 AM
 #14037

For those who want a decentralized, trustless, gold backed digital currency

What..
It's not gold backed. All BitAssets are backed by BTSX.

At the endgame it will allow to speculate and hedge without counterparty risk. People will also be able to earn interests on their savings while having their purchasing power store in any asset of the economy they wish, without counterparty risk. But yeah, it's just a fad.

The way it reads it would seem that there is a systemic counterparty.  Also significant complexity risks.  

For example, When and if an asset fails, it is redeemed in the Bitshares used as collateral.  These Bitshares may then be sold, driving the Bitshares price down, possibly causing another collateral failure in a different asset, and so on.  Once it starts, there will likely be a rush to the exit and cause cascading, yes?

You cant short below 10% of the median price feed
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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October 19, 2014, 07:15:56 AM
 #14038


Yes.

It might be interesting to note that this process started to accelerate when Nixon took the dollar off gold.

Sound money is peoples money.


This is a very interesting chart. It begs the question "Why?" Why has inequality steadily increased?
I think the reason is that in an unbounded monetary system the people who have first use of new money benefit the most. They benefit because the inflationary impact of the new money does not appear immediately. So banks, big business which get priority on loans, and the wealthy who can leverage their assets do so before the inflationary impact occurs. Ordinary people are using the new money after the inflationary impact. For the middle class this is a financial death of a thousand cuts.

The gold standard was weak long before 1971, so the chart reflects this, but the trend goes ballistic in a fully fiat system. Cue Supertramp, because this is the true crime of the century.

sidhujag
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October 19, 2014, 07:22:39 AM
 #14039

I think it has something to do with what the thinking was at the time... no human is smart enough to see that many steps ahead or even care about tha tmany steps ahead.. in general people are dumb. especially those in power who didn't study math or don't understand basic logic (alot of them)... they do whats best for them at the time. So at the time there was a scare for war.. and knowing that they wouldnt be able to fund it.. they had to get off the standard so that they can print money to fund a war if it happened. Didn't France ask for their gold at the time and that pretty much precluded the event since they couldn't satisfy their request without pretty much using most of their stash?
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October 19, 2014, 07:29:28 AM
 #14040

Interesting piece on this topic.

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/wealth-inequality-is-not-a-problem-its-a-symptom/
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