[BitcoinMax.com] Closed

[gene]

This is so well-written and easy to understand that anyone pretending not to understand can only be assumed to be "playing the fool."

yet so full of falsehoods such as "You have not lost a single bitcoin.". yeah, oat hay 

Any "loss" (no matter what method of book-keeping you prefer) matters ZERO as a mitigating factor. If you slipped up somewhere and let yourself be identified, you'll eventually find this out firsthand.

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[payb.tc]

If you slipped up somewhere and let yourself be identified

lol

[pauljr8]

I can't say anyone has lost coins, yet. Running such an operation had to be a nightmare, closing it the way it was closed seems to be unwieldy at best, impossible at worst. Sitting out here in the dark twisting in the wind like everyone else,  it seems that what may be needed is a coordinated crash of the price and a subsequent buyback which may be the only way for pirateat40 to acquire enough coins to make the payoff. Just a thought, ideas and solutions are always better than vitriolic language and threats. 

[bigbox]

I am reducing my offer again (except for people I've already agreed to a deal with via PM). For a limited time, I will buy a BitcoinMax account for 8.75% of the balance. I've already completed a purchase and I'm familiar with the process.

I'm closing this offer and won't post bids in this thread anymore, but people can still PM me for a current bid.

[Inedible]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

[flower1024]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

+1
wow there are still reasonable people in this forum

[unclescrooge]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

Thanks inedible. That was long due.

[bitsire]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

Thanks inedible. That was long due.

+1 - my sentiments exactly. I wonder if message boards discussing Facebook shares or 0.5% big bank savings accounts are met with such ferocious trolling. I guess those are "legitimate" investments ;-)

Some people gamble by hopping on a plane to Vegas. Others speculate on real estate or stocks. Speculating on a high-yield Bitcoin investment is no different - one should only play with money that they can afford to lose. I have had a lot of fun speculating with Bitcoin, in addition to profit (despite this unresolved Pirate scheme). I'm not complaining one bit, though I find it mind boggling that so many people spend so much time and energy worrying about other people's money.

[mrdavis]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

+1
I am sick of the insults implying that I am some sheep being led around and taken advantage of by the conniving payb.tc.

I have yet to hear from someone who has gambled their bitcoins on Bitcoinmax who is shocked at the current state of affairs. There might have been something to be said about trying to warn new folks about the risk. No more new folks are "investing" any longer. Perhaps after one of us clams we need an advocate you can try to assign blame for us, but I think everyone knows the blame lies with himself.

[SimBesh]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

+1
I am sick of the insults implying that I am some sheep being led around and taken advantage of by the conniving payb.tc.

I have yet to hear from someone who has gambled their bitcoins on Bitcoinmax who is shocked at the current state of affairs. There might have been something to be said about trying to warn new folks about the risk. No more new folks are "investing" any longer. Perhaps after one of us clams we need an advocate you can try to assign blame for us, but I think everyone knows the blame lies with himself.

+1

+1

[JoelKatz]

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Then you are a scammer. You knowingly paid Pirate to fraudulently transfer other people's money to you without their consent.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

That's not the issue. It's not what Pirate did with your money, it's what you paid him to do.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

Okay, so you knowingly participated in a scam. You are a scammer.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

Right, so you knew it was a scam.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

Umm, how do you figure? You don't agree that they paid Pirate to fraudulently transfer other people's money to them?

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Because they knowingly participated in a scam and tried to profit from it. Duh.

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

You are a scammer because you knowingly participated in a scam, paying Pirate to make you the beneficiary of fraudulent transfers of other people's money. Sorry, but that's the truth.

True or false: Pirate induced people to invest in him by claiming to have an actual business that turned a legitimate profit. You knew, however, that he was probably using new investments to pay off interest on previous investments. You knew or should have known that by investing with Pirate, you were in fact paying him to transfer some of those funds that others were lead to believe would be invested to you, which is in no way an investment of those funds.

How can you say that doesn't make you a scammer? How long until reality sinks in and the cognitive dissonance stops?

[hgmichna]

If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order.

I'll bite.

I 'invested' in this scheme.

Was I aware of what I was getting myself into? Yes.

Am I going to blame someone for the current outcome? No.

It's not like I didn't read payb.tc's warnings. It's not like he didn't say you stand to lose your entire gam...er...invstment.

Everyone's saying "a 3400% annual return rate - it's got to be a scam" - well I agree with you. Did I still take a chance, sure.

I don't think anyone who can think rationally could believe that there wasn't something fishy here, especially with no information as to how these returns were being generated.

I'm also as suspicious of people who are calling people like payb.tc scammers, for exactly the same reasons.

If you're a rational person who can think for themselves, how can people who operated passthroughs be considered scammers?

Some have said that they're scammers because they helped legitimise Pirate... how? Am I a scammer because I gambled? Did I legitimise him?

I already said that I would stay quiet in a case like yours, but if you reply explicitly, I will give my opinion and my guess at what a judge would say.

If you are a victim of the fraud and did not know it was a fraud, then you are without guilt. Sorry for your loss (unless you were among the lucky early investors who had made a gain through interest payouts or a timely withdrawal).

If you knew it was fraud, but gambled nonetheless, perhaps because you thought you came in early enough to make a profit before the scheme would fall apart, you are probably legally clean, but you have to clear the moral side with your own conscience.

If you knew it was a scam and set up a front-line business to profit from it, designing contracts that pushed all the risk on your clients, but left you with a riskless profit, then I would not be so sure whether a judge would absolve you of all guilt. My guess is that you would count as a conspirator and would have to bear some of the responsibility.

A word about the moral side, just generally, not as a reply to your message. An unpleasant sign of our times is that increasingly many people believe that anything that makes them money is good. They no longer even know what morale or honor means. At best they show ethical behavior only for fear of punishment. They have not understood or they wilfully ignore that our human civilization could not work if most people acted that way.

[payb.tc]

If you are a victim of the fraud and did not know it was a fraud, then you are without guilt.

thanks hg, that's very kind of you to say.

i agree completely.

[hgmichna]

Some people gamble by hopping on a plane to Vegas. Others speculate on real estate or stocks. Speculating on a high-yield Bitcoin investment is no different - one should only play with money that they can afford to lose. I have had a lot of fun speculating with Bitcoin, in addition to profit (despite this unresolved Pirate scheme). I'm not complaining one bit, though I find it mind boggling that so many people spend so much time and energy worrying about other people's money.

You are strangely overlooking a decisive difference. If you gamble, you are fairly well informed of the rules. The pirate Ponzi scheme was different. There is a person who set up the scheme as fraud, inventing an incredibly elaborate network of lies designed to deceive people and steal their money.

If you gamble in Las Vegas, there is nothing of the sort. If there is deception, like in playing Poker, then that is part of the rules, and everybody expects it to be that way.

Don't tell me you cannot see the difference.

Why do some people worry about other peoples' money? Perhaps there are some who want to uphold honest rules, including the rule of the law. Some people just cannot look on and be silent while watching other people being defrauded, just as some people will not look the other way when grandma cannot get across the street safely. They help as well as they can. These are the people I want to be with.

[JoelKatz]

If you are a victim of the fraud and did not know it was a fraud, then you are without guilt.

thanks hg, that's very kind of you to say.

i agree completely.

I don't know enough about the specifics to point blame at any particular people, but I find it really hard to imagine anyone could have been running a PPT and not be either aware of, or willfully blind to, the near certainty that they were paying Pirate to transfer to them money that other people were induced to transfer to him in the belief that it would be invested, and that transferring that money to them was not in fact an investment. In my opinion, that makes them scammers.

And no disclaimers would eliminate this, because the issue is not how they collected their funds but what they paid Pirate to do.

Again, I don't know enough about the facts of any specific situation to point blame at any particular people. I am not saying that any particular person is a scammer.

One of the most horrible things about Ponzi schemes is that they promise free money in way that turns honest people into scammers. Pirate cleverly tricked you into being a scammer.

[tosku]

If you slipped up somewhere and let yourself be identified, you'll eventually find this out firsthand.

He hasn't been concealing his identity, just not gone public with it.
http://whois.domaintools.com/payb.tc

[JoelKatz]

I have yet to hear from someone who has gambled their bitcoins on Bitcoinmax who is shocked at the current state of affairs.

In other words, everyone associated knew, or should have known, that it was a scam. That means the operators knew, or should have known, that they were participating in a scam.

There might have been something to be said about trying to warn new folks about the risk. No more new folks are "investing" any longer. Perhaps after one of us clams we need an advocate you can try to assign blame for us, but I think everyone knows the blame lies with himself.

You're missing the point. The point is not what happened to the money they paid Pirate, the point is what they paid Pirate to do. The fact is, they knowingly paid Pirate to transfer funds to them that they knew, or should have known, were obtained from others on the fraudulent promise (credible or not, believed or not) that they would be legitimately invested, knowing that such a transfer is in no way a legitimate investment.

(Again, I am not pointing blame at any specific people. I'm just refuting the argument that people who funnel money into Ponzi schemes are blameless for doing so because the blame instead rests with others. Also, you should pick just one of "I didn't know what I was getting into" or "Everyone knew what they were getting into". You can't argue both at the same time.)

[flower1024]

I have yet to hear from someone who has gambled their bitcoins on Bitcoinmax who is shocked at the current state of affairs.

In other words, everyone associated knew, or should have known, that it was a scam. That means the operators of Bitcoinmax knew, or should have known, that they were participating in a scam.

There might have been something to be said about trying to warn new folks about the risk. No more new folks are "investing" any longer. Perhaps after one of us clams we need an advocate you can try to assign blame for us, but I think everyone knows the blame lies with himself.

You're missing the point. The point is not what happened to the money he paid Pirate, the point is what he paid Pirate to do. The fact is, he knowingly paid Pirate to transfer funds to him that he knew, or should have known, were obtained from others on fraudulent the promise (credible or not) that they would be legitimately invested, knowing that such a transfer is in no way a legitimate investment.

(Again, I am only using Bitcoinmax as an example. I am not pointing blame at any specific people. I'm just refuting the argument that people who funnel money into Ponzi schemes are blameless for doing so because the blame instead rests with others.)

hi joelkatz

i dont unterstand you reasoning. i've read most of your posts and liked it.

but now you just do rant over rant about pirate. why? its over; please just stop this mess. i did understand your warning about "pirate selling pirate debt" - that was good (maybe a little to often).

payb.tc was VERY clear that he just passes money to pirate. as long as this passthrough existed there where many threads in this forum warning people about pirate - everybody should think for himself.

he was just offering a service for people (like me) which dont want to invest that much money at once but still would like to gain 7% interest. he did a very good job and was very open about it.

he made it clear when and how much he will pay. what's your problem with that?

[JoelKatz]

but now you just do rant over rant about pirate. why? its over; please just stop this mess. i did understand your warning about "pirate selling pirate debt" - that was good (maybe a little to often).

I don't want this to happen again. I want the community to learn the maximum amount possible from this mess. And I see significant efforts to prevent the community from learning a lesson.

payb.tc was VERY clear that he just passes money to pirate. as long as this passthrough existed there where many threads in this forum warning people about pirate - everybody should think for himself.

I can very clearly say that all contributions to the bitcoin address in my signature will be used to hire a hitman to kill my boss. That doesn't absolve me of responsibility for hiring a hitman to kill my boss. The issue is not what Pirate did with the money or how he induced people to give him the money -- the issue is what he paid Pirate to do.

For those who argue the PPT operators did nothing wrong, should they do it again next time?

he was just offering a service for people (like me) which dont want to invest that much money at once but still would like to gain 7% interest. he did a very good job and was very open about it.

Again, the issue is what he paid Pirate to do. It has nothing to do with the service he provided or whether he was honest or lied about what he was doing. He knowingly paid Pirate to fraudulently transfer to him money that he knew was obtained from others on the false promise that it would be legitimately invested -- a transfer he knew was not in fact a legitimate investment.

he made it clear when and how much he will pay. what's your problem with that?

My problem with that is that he knowingly participated in a scam, drew others into that scam, and attempted to profit from it. And if he agrees with you, he still sees nothing wrong with that.

[flower1024]

but now you just do rant over rant about pirate. why? its over; please just stop this mess. i did understand your warning about "pirate selling pirate debt" - that was good (maybe a little to often).

I don't want this to happen again. I want the community to learn the maximum amount possible from this mess. And I see significant efforts to prevent the community from learning a lesson.

yes; and i think the same.
but: to prevent a ponzi (i dont call pirate a ponzi for now; we just dont know for sure) we should invent good standards where people can easily compare investments. rants do not help. they do the opposite.

For those who argue the PPT operators did nothing wrong, should they do it again next time?

YES with a big big please
i want to think for myself and i really hate it when other people try to tell me what to do (even if it means that i get burned) - my parents hated me for this

he was just offering a service for people (like me) which dont want to invest that much money at once but still would like to gain 7% interest. he did a very good job and was very open about it.

Again, the issue is what he paid Pirate to do. It has nothing to do with the service he provided or whether he was honest or lied about what he was doing. He knowingly paid Pirate to fraudulently transfer to him money that he knew was obtained from others on the false promise that it would be legitimately invested -- a transfer he knew was not in fact a legitimate investment.

again: we still dont know for sure if it was a ponzi or not.
i still think that pirate tried to be honest but failed because of his clients - but i dont know.

what exactly to you want to prevent?

anonymous funds / projects?
ponzis?

i dont see any way to distinguish between them. and one of the reasons i love bitcoins is that i have the chance to keep my businness anon (btw this does not mean it is illegal by any way).