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Author Topic: [BitcoinMax.com] Closed  (Read 186198 times)
payb.tc
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August 30, 2012, 07:05:23 AM
 #1761

Can you let us know by end of today payb.tc if you can't or won't send pirate details, so I can email them directly to pirate instead?

first, please tell me when the end of today is.
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August 30, 2012, 07:10:05 AM
 #1762

Say Fri 00:00:00 utc.

Is that okay?

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August 30, 2012, 07:12:39 AM
 #1763

I admit asking ppt owners to supply details is rather odd. But the situation we have here is pirateat40 has all depositors by the balls. That's the unfortunate truth. If we want see any coins again we have to dance to his tune, however unpleasent it may be.

That is correct, with the qualification that he has only those on his leash who still irrationally believe to get any money back. Needless to say, nobody will see a penny.

Legally, if somebody has a contract with payb.tc or with anybody else, nobody outside that contract has any right to demand anything. The only sensible procedure is that your contract is fulfilled and the other contract, for example between payb.tc and the pirate, is none of your business.

The pirate is playing his cards well. What he really wanted is to confuse you so much that you fail to notice this next delay tactic. It seems to be working incredibly well. The pirate is certainly not underestimating the boundless stupidity of humans. Could hardly stop shaking my head when I read this thread up to here.

On top of that he gets data that he would not otherwise be able to obtain. I can only guess what he wants it for, but it certainly smells very fishy.

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http://www.dailytech.com/Pirateat40+Makes+Off+56M+USD+in+BitCoins+From+Pyramid+Scheme/article25538.htm

http://rt.com/usa/news/investors-currency-digital-fund-868/
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August 30, 2012, 07:20:36 AM
 #1764

I admit asking ppt owners to supply details is rather odd. But the situation we have here is pirateat40 has all depositors by the balls. That's the unfortunate truth. If we want see any coins again we have to dance to his tune, however unpleasent it may be.

That is correct, with the qualification that he has only those on his leash who still irrationally believe to get any money back. Needless to say, nobody will see a penny.

Legally, if somebody has a contract with payb.tc or with anybody else, nobody outside that contract has any right to demand anything. The only sensible procedure is that your contract is fulfilled and the other contract, for example between payb.tc and the pirate, is none of your business.

The pirate is playing his cards well. What he really wanted is to confuse you so much that you fail to notice this next delay tactic. It seems to be working incredibly well. The pirate is certainly not underestimating the boundless stupidity of humans. Could hardly stop shaking my head when I read this thread up to here.

On top of that he gets data that he would not otherwise be able to obtain. I can only guess what he wants it for, but it certainly smells very fishy.

--
The two most prevalent elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity, but not necessarily in that order.

my guess is:

pirateat asked for that information to let all ppt owners think that he would only pay out principal.

as (most) of the ppt-owners have old accounts their principal is not very big compaired to their gained interest -> that makes them fear that if they disclose this information they get only a very small cut.

which results in what we see now: ppt-account holders try to convince ppt-owners to tell their info to pirate - and they dont want to. which basically means he could blame the ppt-owners now why it takes longer.

it just seems to be a "buy-time" tactic. and another good thing for him: many people thinks ppt-owners are scammers. with a little fud not all the dirt is thrown at him.

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August 30, 2012, 07:24:31 AM
 #1765

it is very unlikely that i will be sending pirate the details of bitcoinmax accounts.

Do you mean that in the general sense of the complete account list, or even in the individual cases where you've been specifically asked to?  Disclaimer: I'd like my BTCMax info passed to pirate ASAP, by the Fri deadline at the very latest.

i think this information is totally irrelevant to *my* account at BST.

Do you mean your personal account or the totality of the BTCMax PPT?

Either way, pirate's announcement of default and statement of terms for the ensuing wind-down make that information *very* relevant.  

I hope you choose to accept the terms of the wind-down, so we (your customers) don't get left out of whatever settlement may be forthcoming.

One more thing, and this is a biggie.  The reason pirate wants to pay us PPT customers directly is to ensure that there is no funny business with the settlements.  

Lawyered up or not, at this point it makes sense for him to remove as much counterparty risk as possible, to best minimize chances of further uncertainty/rancor/dissatisfaction/unpaid accounts and ensuing litigation or other negative consequences.

i only have one account at BST. it contains everything.

whether there is any 'funny business' within bitcoinmax is also irrelevant to pirate and my BST account being paid out. if he can prove he sent ~168300 to me (and everyone by now knows my bst withdrawal address - 19kEo3qmuUdAQb1Q7VZhRwahw5v3NSZCeW), then that's as far as his responsibility goes.

Had.  Not "have."  As in, you "had" one account at BST.  That is no longer the case, as we are now in bankruptcy proceedings and whatever BST/PPT corporate veils once existed now require piercing.

As you are aware, BST is in default.  That means previously existing arrangements no longer apply and are irrelevant.

You must learn to start using the past tense when referring to your (former) BST account.

Let go of the cherished past and please, for the sake of your customers, start dealing with the pressing demands of the present and potentialities of the future.

Nobody is saying there is any funny business within bitcoinmax, but legal and practical strictures require pirate to act in such a manner as if there is or could be.

Pirate is not going to place himself in any position where the potential exists for a PPT operator to cut and run, leaving him on the hook to settle the accounts twice.  It's a smart business move; I would do the same thing in his shoes.

Quote
it's pretty simple... he needs to pay out my BS&T account to my BS&T withdrawal address.

It is NOT that simple, no matter how strenuously you insist it is.  When Madoff's Ponzi went bust, the money recovered did NOT go back to his feeder funds for redistribution.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
hgmichna
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August 30, 2012, 07:39:20 AM
 #1766

my guess is:

pirateat asked for that information to let all ppt owners think that he would only pay out principal.

as (most) of the ppt-owners have old accounts their principal is not very big compaired to their gained interest -> that makes them fear that if they disclose this information they get only a very small cut.

which results in what we see now: ppt-account holders try to convince ppt-owners to tell their info to pirate - and they dont want to. which basically means he could blame the ppt-owners now why it takes longer.

it just seems to be a "buy-time" tactic. and another good thing for him: many people thinks ppt-owners are scammers. with a little fud not all the dirt is thrown at him.

Sounds possible.

I'm sure the pirate cannot get away with this and keep his citizen's rights. There are only two possibilities:

  • He has managed to keep his identity perfectly secret. Seems a bit unlikely to me, but is possible.
  • He moves, or has already moved, to a country where he can safely hide.
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August 30, 2012, 07:43:28 AM
 #1767

it is very unlikely that i will be sending pirate the details of bitcoinmax accounts.

Do you mean that in the general sense of the complete account list, or even in the individual cases where you've been specifically asked to?  Disclaimer: I'd like my BTCMax info passed to pirate ASAP, by the Fri deadline at the very latest.

i think this information is totally irrelevant to *my* account at BST.

Do you mean your personal account or the totality of the BTCMax PPT?

Either way, pirate's announcement of default and statement of terms for the ensuing wind-down make that information *very* relevant.  

I hope you choose to accept the terms of the wind-down, so we (your customers) don't get left out of whatever settlement may be forthcoming.

One more thing, and this is a biggie.  The reason pirate wants to pay us PPT customers directly is to ensure that there is no funny business with the settlements.  

Lawyered up or not, at this point it makes sense for him to remove as much counterparty risk as possible, to best minimize chances of further uncertainty/rancor/dissatisfaction/unpaid accounts and ensuing litigation or other negative consequences.

i only have one account at BST. it contains everything.

whether there is any 'funny business' within bitcoinmax is also irrelevant to pirate and my BST account being paid out. if he can prove he sent ~168300 to me (and everyone by now knows my bst withdrawal address - 19kEo3qmuUdAQb1Q7VZhRwahw5v3NSZCeW), then that's as far as his responsibility goes.


As long as you do "funny buiseness" at bitcoinmax of course bitlane is first and your "investors" get zilch......

Sorry to tell you but please distance yourself now from " funny buiseness" and fix it in the OP, how you´d exactly distribute any payment from pirate!?

Would be silly if you yourself had an account at bitcoinmax...is it?   I see , that the bitcoinmax site is down, so no data accessible right now for us.......

Please keep it safe.....as bitcoinmax was and still is the best service and bank interface in bitcoinworld !!.....many thanks for you payb.tc for all your efforts!

Its just that one can´t  ignore asking a borrower about his buiseness model before laying out principal of your investors to him --- and if having done so....

you force him to disclose it on the way....or you yourself are responsible for the lost principle.....especially if you mix your coins , your investment in Bcst , the incoming

coins of account holders and your privat wallets the way you disclosed it to me.


Thanks Zyk







iCEBREAKER
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August 30, 2012, 07:43:41 AM
 #1768

Legally, if somebody has a contract with payb.tc or with anybody else, nobody outside that contract has any right to demand anything. The only sensible procedure is that your contract is fulfilled and the other contract, for example between payb.tc and the pirate, is none of your business.

That is true, but only up to the point of default.  Which we have passed.  

So those (now unenforceable) contracts are moot and worthless.

As a point of reference, please familiarize yourself with the aftermath of the Madoff implosion.

You will find that the Madoff feeder funds, AKA Ponzi passthroughs, unsurprisingly did NOT receive any money clawed back in the bankruptcy proceedings for redistribution to their FORMER customers.


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
BinaryMage
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August 30, 2012, 07:45:14 AM
 #1769

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I authorize payb.tc to release all pertinent details about my BitcoinMax account provided by me to you at the time of account creation to the forum user known as pirateat40 should he require or request it for any reason related to the closure and default of Bitcoin Savings and Trust.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
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=9C30
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- BinaryMage -- | OTC | PGP
Bitsky
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August 30, 2012, 07:45:29 AM
 #1770

I'm fine with my info being send to Pirate too as I want this to be resolved as soon as possible and get over with it.

It's been clear from the beginning that Bitcoinmax was nothing but a passthrough service only, with no insurance, liability or anything, completely dependant of Pirate. Having said that I'm a bit surprised that suddenly there's a "pay all or nothing" approach, instead of letting Pirate, who caused all this, sort things out directly without another middleman.

Bounty: Earn up to 68.7 BTC
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August 30, 2012, 07:52:06 AM
 #1771

I allow for my account details to be passed on to pirateat40
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August 30, 2012, 07:56:18 AM
 #1772

Sorry to tell you but please distance yourself now from " funny buiseness" and fix it in the OP, how you´d exactly distribute any payment from pirate!?

That's a great point zyk.

Given that partial settlement of accounts is very likely, it is not reasonable for the liable party (pirate) to allow PPT operators any discretion in distribution of returned funds.

That would make pirate responsible for PPT operator actions he has no control over.  Ain't gonna happen!

Everyone who has lent to pirate, via PPT or directly, has to be treated equally. 

Or else more whining, lawsuits, etc.  That's why pirate needs the PPT account info.

Zyk and I can't be the only people here (besides St. Satoshi) who realize this, right?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 30, 2012, 07:59:12 AM
 #1773

It's been clear from the beginning that Bitcoinmax was nothing but a passthrough service only, with no insurance, liability or anything, completely dependant of Pirate. Having said that I'm a bit surprised that suddenly there's a "pay all or nothing" approach, instead of letting Pirate, who caused all this, sort things out directly without another middleman.

If there's any funny business going on within Bitcoinmax, this sudden "pay all or nothing" approach is it.   Undecided

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 30, 2012, 08:00:29 AM
 #1774

Sorry to tell you but please distance yourself now from " funny buiseness" and fix it in the OP, how you´d exactly distribute any payment from pirate!?

That's a great point zyk.

Given that partial settlement of accounts is very likely, it is not reasonable for the liable party (pirate) to allow PPT operators any discretion in distribution of returned funds.

That would make pirate responsible for PPT operator actions he has no control over.  Ain't gonna happen!

Everyone who has lent to pirate, via PPT or directly, has to be treated equally. 

Or else more whining, lawsuits, etc.  That's why pirate needs the PPT account info.

Zyk and I can't be the only people here (besides St. Satoshi) who realize this, right?

and Lord Micon:)

Mine with your Bitcoins: www.facebook.com/pyramining (always active links)
Exchange all your altcoins on Vircurex (smaller fee from that link)
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August 30, 2012, 08:07:15 AM
 #1775

It will be time to look forward, ( if coins are coming back or not).

 I would be happy to see Bitcoinmax providing,  in the near future , the same kind of services. Please propose  a new xPT, with a steady revenue flow, and I will be your "customer" again.




Yep that would be the way you can generate your next paycheck and make up for failing to extrapolate the future this time  !!!

but before that :   for the sake of your customers, start dealing with the pressing demands of the present


And if you finally please get your sleepy head around this:......it is foremost your objective to enter in just!!! not selfish bancrupcy distribution

as if leaving the OP like that means you will be forced by your investors to hand over the data.......zykloogish?

Please heed my advice this time as nobody wants to see you teared and feathered in the end...... I love Bitcoinmax

Cheers Zyk
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August 30, 2012, 08:25:19 AM
 #1776

just for the record:
i am also fine with my details being forwarded.

BTC: 1LsD5HpnX1Kfyti7CnHiVB1rjUEXGqmR2H
LTC: LQbpdMZmYyJa9bJG6NweBNxkSTfgZorkrG
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August 30, 2012, 08:33:04 AM
 #1777

Please don´t even think of deleting or changing your databases besides uniting the ill gotten interest in escrow.

As that would be the conclusive end to any proposed panic - hoarding Wink

Thanks Zyk
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August 30, 2012, 08:51:59 AM
 #1778

can't we just skip ahead a few weeks to when pirate posts up he was about to pay but got hacked ?

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August 30, 2012, 08:53:40 AM
 #1779

if he pays out all the accounts he has info for, then he'll be paying payb.tc 168300+ btc.

he has info for me, and my account.

Exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you.



Please proceed to the queu where you can leave your finger prints Wink

Thanks Zyk
bitlane
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August 30, 2012, 08:55:57 AM
 #1780

just for the record:
i am also fine with my details being forwarded.

Yes, you and all of the other 50 BTC-worth accounts, play right into Trendon's plan and settle personally for 50%.

The guys with 5000 BTC accounts want NOTHING to do with him, so you will be over ruled, I am certain.

Withholding individual user info is the ONLY way everyone has a chance. Fuck Trendon and his plans of 'divide and conquer'.

Good job, BitcoinMax. Customer protection and integrity will atleast see you have a future....not so much for Trendon Shavers.

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