ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[jimmothy]

We all know Gen3 isn't out yet, just some test samples; I'd be very concerned if I saw friedcat on Spondoolies forum 'straightening things out".

There is nothing wrong with it IMO.

He/they can have a voice on this forum like everyone else. Especially considering we were talking about AM in comparison to their company.

To be honest I would be very concerned if FC was spending time on the forum at all. We all know that's not normal.

[bitcoin.newsfeed]

To be honest I would be very concerned if FC was spending time on the forum at all. We all know that's not normal.

Sure. Because you all are thinking about excuses like  "Friedcat is very busy", every single hour, every single day for past year I am afraid he's not busy at all. Seems to me that competition is working overtimes and our cat is sleeping. Now kill me believers. 

[elasticband]

Someone is desperate to take some more pre orders

Not my thread, but to set the record straight:

Hammers (our 1st gen) can achieve 10 GHs easily. Tested. May achieve more, not tested.
On the system level, we're 0.8 - 0.9 W/GHs depending on the power mode.

What I'm reading about AM gen3:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=528464.msg6200783#msg6200783
http://blog.rockminer.com/#!/2014/04/13/Testing_Results_Of_BE200.md

One month already and getting 1 KW/THs ?
We're doing better with our 1st gen, with nice margins.

Cost:

You got it completely wrong. Our 2nd gen (RockerBox) is much, much better in term of $/GHs then any 40nm ASIC out there.

[spartan82]

Someone is desperate to take some more pre orders

Not my thread, but to set the record straight:

Hammers (our 1st gen) can achieve 10 GHs easily. Tested. May achieve more, not tested.
On the system level, we're 0.8 - 0.9 W/GHs depending on the power mode.

What I'm reading about AM gen3:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=528464.msg6200783#msg6200783
http://blog.rockminer.com/#!/2014/04/13/Testing_Results_Of_BE200.md

One month already and getting 1 KW/THs ?
We're doing better with our 1st gen, with nice margins.

Cost:

You got it completely wrong. Our 2nd gen (RockerBox) is much, much better in term of $/GHs then any 40nm ASIC out there.

Those preorders are ridiculously priced I don't understand when and where people are going to make a ROI at those rates..

 

To be honest I would be very concerned if FC was spending time on the forum at all. We all know that's not normal.

Sure. Because you all are thinking about excuses like  "Friedcat is very busy", every single hour, every single day for past year I am afraid he's not busy at all. Seems to me that competition is working overtimes and our cat is sleeping. Now kill me believers. 

And fc will come out with another generation of mining chips that will put all its competitors to shame as he has done so in the past. Haters will hate

[bitcoin.newsfeed]

And fc will come out with another generation of mining chips that will put all its competitors to shame as he has done so in the past. Haters will hate

Sure. Like with gen2 and gen3 and with his timing it will be *maybe* 2016

[jimmothy]

And fc will come out with another generation of mining chips that will put all its competitors to shame as he has done so in the past. Haters will hate

Sure. Like with gen2 and gen3 and with his timing it will be *maybe* 2016

gen1-3 have each been a few months apart. What makes you think gen4 will take 2 years?

We don't know how AM gen4 will perform compared to SP gen2 because neither exist yet.

What we do know is that AM 40nm is the most efficient asic in existence as of now(by a tiny amount) and much more powerful than spondoolies 40nm (~40% more).

[Puppet]

If AM costs $0.2/gh at the wafer level we can assume spondoolies cost around $0.4/gh considering they both use the same process size and chip fab.

Do you have die sizes of both chips, or what are you basing this on?

[jimmothy]

If AM costs $0.2/gh at the wafer level we can assume spondoolies cost around $0.4/gh considering they both use the same process size and chip fab.

Do you have die sizes of both chips, or what are you basing this on?

Not the exact die sizes but they are both in an 8mmx8mm package

[Puppet]

Not the exact die sizes but they are both in an 8mmx8mm package

Which is nearly as useful a metric as saying they both ship in 2U rackmounts...

[jimmothy]

Not the exact die sizes but they are both in an 8mmx8mm package

Which is nearly as useful a metric as saying they both ship in 2U rackmounts...

Not exactly since package size is relative to die size but I get your point.

But notice how mr sp tech never denied their 40nm wafer costs being more expensive? He simply said that overclocking can compensate and that their 28nm will be more cost effective than AM 40nm.

[Guy Corem]

Hammers (our 1st gen) can achieve 10 GHs easily. Tested. May achieve more, not tested.

But at 10gh is it still 0.55w/gh at the chip level?

You got it completely wrong. Our 2nd gen (RockerBox) is much, much better in term of $/GHs then any 40nm ASIC out there.

It very well could be but until you have the chips in hand and tested you wont know. And how much is "much much better"?  If it is a simple die shrink that would only be a 30% improvement.

It will be my last post here for a while.

Gen1 ("Hammer") is indeed 0.55W/GHs, which is comparable with AM gen3 results I read here: http://blog.rockminer.com/#!/2014/04/13/Testing_Results_Of_BE200.md
("Power consumption per Ghash:6.375/11.52=0.5539W/Ghash")

You're confusing the "rule of thumb" 30% improvement in power or frequency (40nm -> 28nm) with 2X improvement in area size (cost).
By moving to a larger package (FCBGA 19mmx19mm, the data in our web site is outdated), we've actually reduced price by over 3X

This is gen2 ("RockerBox") brief: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c65ebuvoh5sek2f/rockerbox_brief.pdf

The SP30 (our 2nd gen system) is designed to take advantage of our 2nd gen ASIC (RockerBox) optimal working point (the ASIC brief is attached):

Voltage                                     0.63 V
Total Engines                            193
Max frequency at TT corner         984 MHz
Performance                              90 GHs
Power                                       65 W
Power/performance                    0.34 W/GHs
 
We're using 2 PSUs, each of them is 1.2 KW rated, but can pull up to 1.35 KW

Total system output is expected to be over 6 TH/s:

AC2DC derating: 93%
DC3DC derating: 85%
Fans: 60W

(2700 - 60) * 0.93 * 0.85 / 0.34 ~= 6.1 THs

We're advertising 5.4 THs +- 10%

The gen2 is done deal. We're taping out in 2 weeks, and will deliver working systems in July.

We're now working hard on our gen3. Much more interesting spec ...

[Puppet]

Not exactly since package size is relative to die size but I get your point.

No its not. Primary consideration for package type is its cost, pin count and power delivery. Of course you cant put a bigger die in a package than the package size, but 8x8mm packages are by far the most common and used billions of times (literally) for dies as small as 1-10mm². How big are the dies we are talking about here? Lets have a ballpark guess; HF is getting almost 2GH/mm² on 28nm. If we assume spoonsomething/AM get half that on their older process, then you are looking at ~10mm² dies. It may be 2 or 3x more or less, who knows, but that the package is 64mm² says close to nothing.

But notice how mr sp tech never denied their 40nm wafer costs being more expensive?
[/quote]

How could he? He doesnt have AM die size or wafer/packaging costs. Not that it matters to them, silicon production cost is only a tiny tiny fraction of overall miner cost/price for all vendors. 

[raskul]

Hammers (our 1st gen) can achieve 10 GHs easily. Tested. May achieve more, not tested.

But at 10gh is it still 0.55w/gh at the chip level?

You got it completely wrong. Our 2nd gen (RockerBox) is much, much better in term of $/GHs then any 40nm ASIC out there.

It very well could be but until you have the chips in hand and tested you wont know. And how much is "much much better"?  If it is a simple die shrink that would only be a 30% improvement.

It will be my last post here for a while.

Gen1 ("Hammer") is indeed 0.55W/GHs, which is comparable with AM gen3 results I read here: http://blog.rockminer.com/#!/2014/04/13/Testing_Results_Of_BE200.md
("Power consumption per Ghash:6.375/11.52=0.5539W/Ghash")

You're confusing the "rule of thumb" 30% improvement in power or frequency (40nm -> 28nm) with 2X improvement in area size (cost).
By moving to a larger package (FCBGA 19mmx19mm, the data in our web site is outdated), we've actually reduced price by over 3X

This is gen2 ("RockerBox") brief: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c65ebuvoh5sek2f/rockerbox_brief.pdf

The SP30 (our 2nd gen system) is designed to take advantage of our 2nd gen ASIC (RockerBox) optimal working point (the ASIC brief is attached):

Voltage                                     0.63 V
Total Engines                            193
Max frequency at TT corner         984 MHz
Performance                              90 GHs
Power                                       65 W
Power/performance                    0.34 W/GHs
 
We're using 2 PSUs, each of them is 1.2 KW rated, but can pull up to 1.35 KW

Total system output is expected to be over 6 TH/s:

AC2DC derating: 93%
DC3DC derating: 85%
Fans: 60W

(2700 - 60) * 0.93 * 0.85 / 0.34 ~= 6.1 THs

We're advertising 5.4 THs +- 10%

The gen2 is done deal. We're taping out in 2 weeks, and will deliver working systems in July.

We're now working hard on our gen3. Much more interesting spec ...

oh look! someone who didn't just pull numbers out their arse.
Thank you for clarifying what we already knew.

[jimmothy]

How could he? He doesnt have AM die size or wafer/packaging costs. Not that it matters to them, silicon production cost is only a tiny tiny fraction of overall miner cost/price for all vendors.  

AM wafer cost was stated to be $0.2/gh but you're right it is somewhat irrelevant without knowing all the production costs for both sides.

You're confusing the "rule of thumb" 30% improvement in power or frequency (40nm -> 28nm) with 2X improvement in area size (cost).
By moving to a larger package (FCBGA 19mmx19mm, the data in our web site is outdated), we've actually reduced price by over 3X

The gen2 is done deal. We're taping out in 2 weeks, and will deliver working systems in July.

Also right. I retract my statement about AM gen3 being able to reasonably compete with SP 28nm assuming the reduced price by 3x is accurate. Even a pessimistic estimation with SP 40nm costing $0.4/gh at the wafer level, a 3x reduction would mean $0.12/gh for their 28nm chips.

IF SP can get their next gen out the door without a hitch, AM might be in for another cold winter..

[RoadStress]

Those preorders are ridiculously priced I don't understand when and where people are going to make a ROI at those rates..

And fc will come out with another generation of mining chips that will put all its competitors to shame as he has done so in the past. Haters will hate

This is quoted for future laughs, but i also feel the need to reply to this. Call it advertising or not i don't care. I MUST reply!

"Ridiculously priced"? At 0.83$/GH i don't understand how can this be nothing else than ridiculously good! You also stated that you don't understand how are people going to make ROI, but when comparing to AM 0.55-0.99$/GH just for chips i just don't get your logic behind your statement. Statement backed by nothing. AM's chips never put their competition to shame

gen1-3 have each been a few months apart. What makes you think gen4 will take 2 years?

We don't know how AM gen4 will perform compared to SP gen2 because neither exist yet.

What we do know is that AM 40nm is the most efficient asic in existence as of now(by a tiny amount) and much more powerful than spondoolies 40nm (~40% more).

gen1-3 just a few months apart? please share me your timeline because from what i know it was a bit more than a few months.

Spondoolies 40nm is hashing since end of March, when AM's still isn't hashing in customers hands. What are we comparing here? Why do i have the feeling that when SP-Tech gen2 chips start hashing the customers will barely get AM gen3 miners in hands?


As i said these are my views and i will still have them after GB will end.

[Puppet]

IF SP can get their next gen out the door without a hitch, AM might be in for another cold winter..

And now what makes you think spoonsomething's costs are anything special? For the record I estimated HF's golden nonce at ~$30 in non-packaged silicon production cost (324mm², $4000 per wafer, 80% yield). They seem to get ~800GH from that now (or soon, or sometime), thats less than $0.04/GH. And Im not using HF because I think their design is particularly good, its just the only one I have an official die size for atm.

[necro_nemesis]

Gent's this thread isn't about who has the biggest theoretical ASIC dick. If you need to fantasize about that may I suggest you do it somewhere else and not necessarily in public. The claims are useless in an industry where the realities are manufacturers are rarely on spec and more importantly on time. The moment you state your assumptions as facts you lose all credibility and no one listens to you anymore.

[jimmothy]

IF SP can get their next gen out the door without a hitch, AM might be in for another cold winter..

And now what makes you think spoonsomething's costs are anything special? For the record I estimated HF's golden nonce at ~$30 in non-packaged silicon production cost (324mm², $4000 per wafer, 80% yield). They seem to get ~800GH from that now (or soon, or sometime), thats less than $0.04/GH. And Im not using HF because I think their design is particularly good, its just the only one I have an official die size for atm.

$30/400gh is impressive. Surprising that HF is supposedly out of money even with 100 times markup. 750gh gets 0.8w/gh so its not really worth it or won't be for long.

spoonsomethings costs are special because ~0.35w/gh puts it in another class of asics. I don't think AM gen3 (or any current gen) will compete with it.

[RoadStress]

Gent's this thread isn't about who has the biggest theoretical ASIC dick. If you need to fantasize about that may I suggest you do it somewhere else and not necessarily in public. The claims are useless in an industry where the realities are manufacturers are rarely on spec and more importantly on time. The moment you state your assumptions as facts you lose all credibility and no one listens to you anymore.

Let's talk again in 3 months!

[necro_nemesis]

I have little doubt that the the supporting hardware can be made on time. Circuit board and software development is a well developed and disciplined field that has decades of experience. That's not a concern.

There was mention of quality. By it's disposable nature most mining hardware is junk just built able to function long enough and get to market quickly enough to be profitable. This isn't an industry where you are rewarded for quality unless it affects reliability for the short duration of the hardware's useful life. No marks added for quality beyond that point. Spondoolies may make the finest box to use for a paperweight three months from now.