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1921  Local / Off-Topic (Deutsch) / Re: versteht ihr Ripple? on: September 26, 2013, 07:15:52 PM
Kann man aber auch ganz einfach machen - einfach eine beliebige Bitcoinadresse im Rippleclient eingeben, Anzahl der XRP auswählen und senden klicken... dann bekommt man die Bitcoins direkt zugestellt. Roll Eyes

Charts sind übrigens auch nicht sooo schwer zu finden/lesen.
1922  Local / Off-Topic (Deutsch) / Re: versteht ihr Ripple? on: September 26, 2013, 07:07:49 PM
Ca. 10 Bitcoins momentan.
1923  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 07:04:32 PM
No. If you only put third party ones in, and the third party ones do not add OpenCoin, you will end up with a diff ledger when someone tries a double spend - broadcasting one to Open coin and one to your 3rd party validators.

You can easily test this yourself - just run e.g. a handful of independent servers, put their NodeIDs in each UNL and require a quorum of 3/5 on each. You will not be able to double-spend at all and also won't see any double-spend attempts, you will end on a fully forked ledger with 100 billion unspent XRP in the genesis account. Any double-spend attempts towards your or mainline ledgers will fail, as you have a completely different XRP and trust distribution in your ledgers, meaning your 5 servers will regard every transaction on mainline Ripple as being fake and on the other hand any transaction that is valid on your fork is seen as invalid on mainline Ripple.

This is just like starting Bitcoin with a different genesis block or after a hard fork. Transactions on one block chain will be viewed as completely fake from the other part of the fork and vice versa.

Just as the consensus in Bitcoin is: The main chain is the one starting from Satoshi's genesis block AND has the checkpoints which are embedded in bitcoin-qt (as there might be somebody else starting from Satoshi's block), it is the same in Ripple where the main ledger chain is the one started in Dec. 2012. Of course in both cases it is trivial to start an alternate reality - calling it "centralized" because of this is a bit much in my opinion though, as this would apply to Bitcoin in the same way for example...
1924  Local / Off-Topic (Deutsch) / Re: versteht ihr Ripple? on: September 26, 2013, 06:47:12 PM
Genau deswegen gibt's ja die Neuauflage von Ripple... Ripple an sich ist ja schon weit länger aktiv als Bitcoin (villages.cc, classic.ripplepay.org). Die aktuelle Neuauflage löst sich aber von diesen (mMn idiotischen) Community-Credit Gedanken ("A schuldet B, B schuldet C...") sondern bietet eher eine Abbildung des Bankensystems incl. verteilter Exchange. Damit vertrauen viele Leute vergleichsweise wenigen Akteuren, allerdings wird die Einstiegsschwelle (im Vergleich zum Bankensystem) stark gesenkt.

Irgendwie gehen immer alle davon aus, dass Leute defaulten - dann hat man aber eben auch einen Vertrag mit denen! Wem ich Geld gebe, der ist ein Geschäftspartner, kein Freund! Gerade Candoo sollte das wissen...
1925  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 03:03:20 PM
The bridge comment was in response to shakezola.

Of course you'll have at least an indirect connection to opencoin, as they ran the main ledger until now. If you put only third party nodes there, you'll still end up on the main one, just like with bitcoin where everyone ends up on satoshi's chain.
1926  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 26, 2013, 02:06:15 PM
So if I get you correctly, your reasoning is that 1:1 "rippling" of IOUs (e.g. I trust A.BTC and B.BTC and can end up with either of them) is bad, since one would better need to make an explicit market order to trade IOUs than to implicitly exchange them.

I fully agree on this, this is also the most discussed bug report in the ripple client about this issue (https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues/748). Ripple in its classic idea (everybody is a gateway) would probably die out if this was not enforced or change (evolve?) to its current state where IOU issuers are relatively rare and realtively well known and established entities.

There are remedies against that though:
Partially: setting OutputQuality to something else than 1:1 and keeping a low balance to limit potential losses and earn a small fee in the mean time - doesn't protect against catastrophic failures.
Fully: setting the tfSetNoRipple flag on your trust lines (https://ripple.com/wiki/Transactions#TrustSet_.2820.29) so your IOUs will never be implicitly exchanged. You can still act as liquidity provider, but only via explicit market orders, not implicit trust line rippling. As this is already possible for quite some time, and only VERY few people use this possibility, there is either the option that it is too complex to do this (one could fork a "no-rippling" client though) or that the majority of Ripplers actually disagree with you on this threat.

Anyways, as I said, it is possible to use Ripple without this for yourself - and if others take that risk knowingly, it is their problem frankly.
1927  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 01:49:31 PM
Saying everyone can choose the validators that they like best is a misleading claim. If you don't choose OpenCoin in your UNL, you will not get the same transactions as any other ripple user. This point is elaborated in more detail in RippleScam.org
This is completely wrong and you would see that if you would actually run a rippled.

To convert XRP to BTC one actually just needs to use the Bitstamp bridge - just send money to a BTC address from within the official client and it will automatically trade on the Ripple market and send it on the Blockchain for you. I do not know if Bitstamp will stop this in the future for AML reasons, though there is the chance that others might provide similar services.
1928  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: To the Ripple haters... on: September 26, 2013, 09:56:28 AM
Ripple is also opensource from today Smiley
NSA uses open source software
Ripple's database/ledger is public, NSA's databases aren't.
1929  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 09:54:04 AM
You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Gateway_policies
https://ripple.com/wiki/Transit_Fees

A gateway is able to levy you a 100% transfer fee on their IOUs. Not only won't you be able to redeem the value they stand for, but you can't even transfer it.

You should spend more time reading the official ripple wiki, particularly:

Quote
Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.
Well, I did read that (probably some time before you did...) - if my gateway does this, I can just get my lawyer and sue them for breach of contract as they are a legal entity in my jurisdiction. Quite different than "Bitcoin is not legal tender. As with any Bitcoin service, any storage on inputs.io is at the users own risk. Exchange rates are estimates only.", huh?

Still you did not explain how they would steal my BTC.Bitstamp that are sitting at an address without me doing anything...
1930  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 09:43:00 AM
BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about Smiley

Please give an example how... it is NOT possible without compromising a lot of servers at the same time, more than what is needed for Bitcoin.
1. Refuse to honor BTC withdrawals on Bitstamp. Requires two keystrokes - // to comment a line out.
2. Finished.
You can still transfer them and have full control over them - you are jsut not able to redeem the value they stand for.
1931  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 09:40:23 AM
BitStamp cannot steal my 1GLadosEke BTC in a few seconds. Bitstamp can steal my rGLadosEke BTC in a few seconds.

I respectfully recommend only talking about what you know about Smiley

Please give an example how... it is NOT possible without compromising a lot of servers at the same time, more than what is needed for Bitcoin.

Edit:
Sooo... when will the source code for inputs.io be released? Tongue
When has Inputs advertised it as open source?  Wink

OpenCoin / Ripple Labs has been doing it for something like a year now?
No, they provided code for the client already for a long time and have NOT advertised rippled as being Open Source until now.
1932  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Ripple is officially open-source! w/link on: September 26, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
Sooo... when will the source code for inputs.io be released? Tongue
1933  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 25, 2013, 01:28:09 PM
So in the end again you don't trust your bank, but the FDIC (in the US for example) that they have always enough funds available at all times to guarantee you at least 250000$ in your account. I'm using absolutes here, because any even tiny doubt would reduce the worth of the IOU from face value to below it.

Any kind of more beneficial terms (e.g. higher interest) then makes the IOUs more attractive - but that just means you are willing to take on more risk for a potentially more rewarding IOU. This just offsets the loss in value because of less trust to bring it up to face value because of more rewards. Why shouldn't this be possible in Ripple too?
1934  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 25, 2013, 01:05:09 PM
Well, how much do you rate USD at your bank account? If it is face value, that means you believe that your bank can NEVER EVER fail, go down or be bankrupt. If it is less, how do you convince your bank to give you 1 USD balance on every 99 cents deposited (for example)?
1935  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 25, 2013, 12:20:35 PM
Your argument is now that it is hard to determine a proper amount to value this 1 BTC IOU. This is true however for any IOU and has been this way for millennia.
The difference is that for millennia the lender and borrower had a direct relationship and the lender could make an accurate determination of the risks he takes on when he lends by getting as much information as he can from the borrower. He can also determine the interest that would make it worth the trouble.
In ripple, this relationship is severed, making accurate determination impossible, rather than difficult.

Two consequences of this jump out at me;
1.) Trust lines will be determined by how much the lender is willing to lose, no questions asked, without notification, and without remuneration.
2.) People can and will abuse this system, and all of the most trusting/gullible will suffer the most from it.

As a direct result of this, trust lines -if they exist at all- will a combination of extraordinarily short and in tiny amounts.
You still have a direct relationship between your borrower (= your gateway) and the lender (= you). You have an account there, hopefully did due diligence in checking if they are actually paying out if you send them IOUs, checking if they are useful in your jurisdiction or your preferred currencies etc.

I am not sure about your terminology, with "borrower" I mean someone getting/holding an asset (e.g. a gold bar), and a "lender" is someone holding an IOU (e.g. a note saying "hand this note back at ... to receive 1 gold bar") for that asset that (s)he previously might have owned, but gave away to the borrower for later redemption.

It is my belief that 1 BTC (on the blockchain, as an asset) has exactly 0 value ... BTC is not based on their inherent value but rather upon their usefulness as money and store of value.
Everything is valued based upon it's usefulness, not its "inherent value". When Austrian Economists talk about intrinsic value, they are only referring to the intrinsic properties of the item in question that has value, subjectively, to certain people.
Then why does the price of BTC change that much if not that much happens in the BTC-ecosystem? Why do bubbles happen if everything is valued upon usefulness alone?

Your argument turned around would be the following: The inherent flaw of digital assets like XRP or BTC is that they cannot be priced by the owner, as they are worthless by themselves...
No, but a different phrasing of my argument would be;
IOU's cannot retain value as they are passed along a Ripple Web of Trust because the terms of the loan, which determines the value of the loan, is vaporized by the first Liquidity Provider.
I have terms only with my personal gateway and will only accept/receive IOUs denominated by them. Kinda like the bank that I have my account at. Even if someone from a bank whose name I can't even spell and whose currency I haven't even ever heard of sends me money, I will end up with some balance on my bank account, denominated in EUR, which means my bank now owes me a few EUR more.

I don't know your bank, I don't care about your bank and I certainly don't care about having any contracts with them. Still its IOUs might be worth something to some people. As long as you hand them to someone else at the same bank, they would likely value them at the same value as you do. You do nothing else when handing them to a liquidity provider, which is just a person who has 2 bank accounts - one at your bank, one at mine. He takes your balance and hands you a balance that I accept. That might be done for free or at a fee. Still there is nothing radically new or different about this, it has worked also for millennia like this when travelling to other countries that have different currencies for example.

The solution to both your arguments about rating trust in IOUs and the opposite argument about uncertain pricing of assets is also known for millennia: an open market where people come up with prices and hopefully also match these from time to time based on both their needs/beliefs and other market participants.
That doesn't work because the mechanism by which lenders can make these determinations in the market do not exist in Ripple over Liquidity Providers.
As long as you are lending out e.g. BTC to only one borrower (e.g. Bitstamp) and trading only there, why would you care about anyone else? As soon as you need to pay in different IOUs (e.g. in CNY.RippleCN), you need to trade on the open market and that's where people come into play who take the risk or work of trusting more than 1 entity and can get a fee for that service. Still I could care less if someone only accepts 100% fraudulent BTC (e.g. by TradeFortress), as long as there is a way to trade mine for these, it will be found and the cheapest one will be used by me. I never get exposed to anything and the only person(s) that might get burned are the liquidity provider(s) inbetween that willingly trusted TradeFortress and the person that accepted them in the first place.


I am still unsure what your actual criticism is - maybe it would help if you scetch a small network with 2-3 gateways, users, liquidity providers etc. and point out where what according to your theory goes wrong. As it seems somehow you think gateways might be able to run fractional reserve: At least in the EU issuing e-money is a VERY regulated business and you are definitely NOT allowed to run fractional reserve at any point of time.

Imagine that the IOU was a written contract that is literally passed down line of people.

The contract says, "I [name] owe [name] [principle amount]".
No, the contract says: "I, [gateway_name] give anyone who hands me this note [amount] of [currency]"

On Ripple itself you only state "I [user_name] accept up to [amount] of notes in [currency] from [gateway_name]"

This is all you will end up with as a balance and the only IOUs you are concerned with, are the gateways you are trusting. I don't see how a liquidity provider (who is simply someone who is a customer at 2 gateways) would "break" anything in there.

Again, please provide a small sample network that clearly demonstrates your point of failure, as I fail to see it honestly.

One major drawback of Ripple is that it relies on clients to maintain lists of nodes that are trusted not to collude. Bitcoin is not reliant on this assumption that nodes are not colluding. I could see a scenario where the NSA forces some of the most commonly used nodes to collude in order to comply with the law; even if users would suspect such nodes to have nothing to do with one another. In bitcoin, the NSA would have to take over the mining power. In Ripple, the NSA would just have to force a limited number of nodes to comply, since in order to ensure non-collusion between nodes, the client must choose from well-known nodes. If a client was to simply choose from a random set of nodes, there is no assurance of non-collusion. Ripple claims that this does not require trust, because we only need to be sure that nodes are not colluding, but it basically amounts to a dependence on a set of trusted nodes, because untrusted nodes cannot possibly be trusted to not collude. ie. Where are you getting your list of trusted nodes from?.... it has to be a trusted source. If you take your list of nodes from a public pool of nodes, then there is the potential for someone to contaminate this pool with a large number of colluding nodes.
This "limited number" is about 80% or even more of all Ripple nodes. This number is already RIGHT NOW higher than the number of servers you need to take over to severely mess with Bitcoin (which is about 2-3 pool servers). Also the NSA does not police the world - they would need to break into a lot of servers at the same time to pull this off. It would be easy for example to put only a handful of servers from the US into your UNL and mostly trust servers stationed in other jurisdictions. Also collusion is quite visible on the network too, if only a subset of servers always insists that foo_suspicious_transaction is included... You could for example have some "staging" area where you put NodeIDs of untrusted servers and watch them for signs of collusion if you want to download a huge list of random nodes from the net.

I agree that choosing a proper UNL is difficult, however this is far from impossible and if for example Bitstamp signs their NodeID with their issuing address, this is a VERY strong sign that this message is actually coming from them. Choosing a random subset of all known NodeIDs is of course not the smartest thing to do as you said, clustering them according to certain criteria and choosing some representative NodeIDs from these clusters however might already improve security a lot. Also bringing online a huge amount of nodes all at the same time might work once (when the source code gets released) - after that it would already raise a lot of suspicion too.
1936  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 24, 2013, 10:06:42 AM
Well, an IOU of for example 1 BTC will likely be worth a value between 0 BTC (issuer = defaulted/fraudster...) and 1 BTC (100% trustworthy issuer). Values above that are of course possible but unlikely.

Your argument is now that it is hard to determine a proper amount to value this 1 BTC IOU. This is true however for any IOU and has been this way for millennia. Also to crush your dreams maybe a bit: It is my belief that 1 BTC (on the blockchain, as an asset) has exactly 0 value in e.g. USD as they are not redeemable for anything. This means anything that people pay for BTC is not based on their inherent value but rather upon their usefulness as money and store of value.

Your argument turned around would be the following: The inherent flaw of digital assets like XRP or BTC is that they cannot be priced by the owner, as they are worthless by themselves and it is not clear how useful they are to the world. So unless you can determine from everyone in the world how useful they find digital assets, you have no way to buy/sell BTC at their true price.

The solution to both your arguments about rating trust in IOUs and the opposite argument about uncertain pricing of assets is also known for millennia: an open market where people come up with prices and hopefully also match these from time to time based on both their needs/beliefs and other market participants.
1937  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Ripple without the ripples? on: September 23, 2013, 05:05:48 PM
If you want to distribute XRP according to BTC amounts in addresses, you could even simpler calculate a Ripple address from a BTC address... Wink
1938  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Electrum, inputs.io and bitcoind (.01 BTC REWARD) on: September 23, 2013, 04:37:39 PM
...but you give your Bitcoins to them and get only a promise in return that they might pay them back. They are centralized, closed source and trust based (while Bitcoin itself is designed to NOT require trust). Kinda like Paypal vs. cash.

Edit:
Check out their disclaimer:
Quote
As with any Bitcoin service, any storage on inputs.io is at the users own risk.
1939  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 21, 2013, 09:47:47 AM
Ripple in its standard idea would work like this community credit approach. Opencoin ripple is different in its most likely use case. It's weird that you still seem to ignore answers here and still claim that ripple should be used in a very inefficient way.

All in all what you'll need with ripple is most likely a single gateway you trust with your favorite currency (around here likely bitcoin). No friends, no 1:1 exchange for other IOUs...

This is also already now the most common use case, as you can see from the public ledger. There is a small network from the villages.cc community, most of the other users don't do real community credit.

Please tell me in your words what is the difference between me depositing btc at inputs.io and at a ripple gateway and where the loan terms etc of inputs are.
1940  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: RippleScam.org- If people truly knows what Ripple is, nobody would use it. on: September 20, 2013, 05:39:49 AM
Cute, though it reads like being written by someone who does not understand when one holds assets and when IOUs. Especially the example with mtgox getting in trouble and then acting as if btc were unaffected or safe there is completely wrong. Your balance on there is pure debt which bitcoinica customers can easily tell you more about.

Also there is no real need to keep huge IOU balances in ripple, one could send btc there on demand.

Also the validator list is not hardcoded into the client (you can check its open source code for that) especially since ripple clients don't care about validators at all.
Once the server code is publicly released, it will be trivial for anyone to create alternate ledger chains - as with bitcoin vs altcoins however, don't expect then to gain much traction.
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