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1381  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BBC Paints Dark Wallet as working directly with ISIS on: September 24, 2014, 06:36:36 PM
Getting bored of people saying BTC can do illegal things... as opposed tooooo.... your non illegal USD?

SORRY BRUH CANT BUY THAT GUN... USD POLICY
Don't be delusional, moving money with BTC (and now Dark Wallet) is extremely easier than moving physical cash from A to B.

Oh please, the insinuation is that fiat has not done this for decades. No one said it was easier or not - obviously the technology is superior. That is a moot point

LOL, its akin to saying "We should forbid better shoes, and regulate them because people might use them to run from the police".
Blatant authoritarian agenda pandering.  Moving on.
1382  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 24, 2014, 06:13:41 PM
TheFascistMind, from my far outsiders perspective, you've done a great service here....likely far in excess of any financial reward you received.

I don't want to overstate my role. There are other developers working hard behind the scenes who don't get credit. Someone offered me an additional 5 BTC but I said it could go to those developers working behind the scenes such as to build the simulation to test my pseudocode.

We are not yet sure if anything I contributed is actually a viable attack. I reasonably strongly think so for the de-anonymization and mitigation I provided, but until they build a simulation we probably won't know. The math ideas were really just quickies and not too much effort applied (maybe an hour or two total). I did also write up my summary in this thread of some ways to think about the TW attack and mitigation, which expounds a bit I guess on what I hadn't read before writing that.

I have already received 2.5 BTC from smooth as a preliminary payment, I assume until they can verify with simulation.

Responding to his PM, I also gave jl777 my initial feedback on his Teleport anonymization in a PM. I am waiting on him to describe some of it to me better, so I could analyze more specifically and give specific suggestions, if any. My upthread post about offchain anonymity coins was not intended to say they are necessarily worse than one-time ring signatures on the block chain. I was saying we need more quantified understanding of how these methods compare. And hoping the developers of those coins will produce whitepapers that explain the specifics and do so in a way I can understand. So far the only offchain anonymity whitepaper I've seen which gives a lot of specifics is the one from jl777, but I can't really understand it. Maybe it is just me. For example, there are terms used as as "cloned" which are not defined, or at least I didn't see the definitions in that wall of text. Darkcoin's specifics were last time I checked some months ago buried in the discussion thread. I had formed an understanding, they since refined the design to do premixing, which I commented on in rpietila Altcoin observer thread. The problem with all this piecemeal analysis spread all over the place is it is not collected in one coherent whitepaper for investors to read.
Those are good readings for historical perspective, but code has moved forward since then too.
The KGW is not in play on XMR, even though it still has fast difficulty adjustment.  As you probably know, it uses a net-difficulty metric for chain length not just size or depth for determination and has incorporated 20% anomaly dropping in the difficulty algo (which was not in the original KGW) across a sliding window of 720 blocks.  One of the TW risks is the differentiation time required between chains of different length.  We want that fast or immediate, as well as accurate.  Checkpointing is the historical solution, but with respect to Bitcoin, it has heretofore been developer dependent.

What we may likely to get from the recent TW threat is some even better decentralized solutions to such threats.  Really cool stuff if they can pull it off.

Your anonymity issues also continue to be interesting, and merit some additional working for developing best case fungibility.  This is pretty exciting and  I'm eager to see where it leads us.  
1383  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: September 24, 2014, 05:04:43 PM
Quote
Inside the economic system of one individual crypto, an actor will be economically irrational if he attacks the network to the point of destruction: he is going to experience a net loss if he destroys the value of the currency that he is paid in. The network value post-attack times his share of the network he gained through the attack must be higher than the cost of the attack for him to consider the attack economically viable.

For an outside actor, this doesn't hold. He could either have a higher level economic motivation that allows him to take the cost of an attack (e.g. removing a competitor crypto, to strengthen his preferred crypto), or he could be what you called a "joker type personality". I claim that from the practical point of view of the network that needs to be defended, the two are indistinguishable. This is the case I meant by "malicious actors".

Ah - that makes me understand your definitions better.  I do believe that BCX had hinted at basically doing a timewarp and then dumping all of the coins on an exchange for bitcoin.

So in that scenario there might be an attack that was both beneficial inside the network and destroys it.  But it's probably not worth bringing up.  I do have to wonder what happens inside of BCX's head.  Odd duck.

I waste a little time on the psychological aspects as well, but feel no personal malice or ire.  To polish a good game of chess, one needs worthy opponents.  I also don't mind if the little FUD games were profitable for him.  He sold or bought a bit of reputation and maybe got or lost some XMR or BTC out of it, none of that affects me.
What it did do is it raised a challenge, and though it distracted from some important pursuits for development, it may result in raising the security level a bit.

Monero is very easy to mine.  I can run it in the background on one of my game machines and add a few hashes to the network when I am not goofing off.  Everyone can.  It is like the early Bitcoin days all over again.  And hey, it just might catch on, you may want to get some for yourself.

There will be MUCH greater opposition in the days and years to come.  Few or none will give prior notice.  This was little more than a friendly fire drill.
1384  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 24, 2014, 03:15:04 PM

yes it does. I doubt BCX is a genius like at your level.

BCX was never the issue.
Getting this right is the issue, and always was.

As crypto evolves, there are much bigger boogiemen, this is just a fire drill.
1385  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency (mandatory upgrade) on: September 24, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
[11:28:52]  fluffypony:    the best way to prevent this sort of attack is to have a very, very large network hashrate
[11:29:01]  fluffypony:    ours is still relatively small
[11:29:36]  Myagui:    yeah, which begs for more/better miner software - particularly opensource for AMD (of which I have none, btw)
[11:29:57]  fluffypony:    attacking Monero now using brute hashrate alone is a cop-out, because our network isn't strong enough to be considered "safe" by decentralised standards
[11:30:08]  dnaleor_:    Myagui, bitcoin solved this problem exactly like xmr: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Checkpoint_Lockin
[11:31:19]  Myagui:    dnaleor_: got it, but just as fluffypony and I were getting too, that's not really a "solution", it's mitigation (and requires babysitting)
[11:31:29]  fluffypony:    Myagui: yes
[11:31:41]  fluffypony:    remember, Monero isn't a decentralised cryptocurrency yet
[11:31:54]  fluffypony:    it *can be* one in the future when the network is bigger / stronger
[11:32:17]  fluffypony:    so anyone buying Monero now isn't buying it because it's a perfect example of a decentralised cryptocurrency
[11:32:25]  fluffypony:    they're buying it because it can potentially be one in future

Is it plausible to make clients checkpoint themselves regularly? This would require the checkpoints to be saved in some external file that is integrity-verifiable.

This is the germ of what I wrote up and offered to the devs last weekend after working through the ideas with ArticMine.  The idea is the TW killer, a polymorphic perpetually self-checkpointing client
However it brings other issues, the aging of the CP until when they are useful, and until when they are no longer useful.  The integrity verifiability you mention is another, the CP frequency, dealing with error recovery, and other variables.  It would be easy to get this wrong or render it useless or simply be redundant with the existing block chain.

It isn't something that ought be implemented in 'forced evolution' mode, but there may be something really good here.
1386  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: September 24, 2014, 02:31:41 PM
It was kinda nice to buy back in at not more than I sold off.  I was a little surprised that there wasn't a larger jump in price.  Which means (to me) the market never priced in the attack.

Or maybe it was artificially held up by some whales?

There is still a threat of forking.


1387  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 24, 2014, 06:20:55 AM
Still frozen on Bittrex. This mean it's dead? Huh

Monero cant be traded on bittrex anymore?  Huh
It was posted a few pages back the devs got the exchanges to halt deposits/withdrawals for 24 hours (doesn't affect trading of coins already on exchanges). That's a smart move under the threat of a time warp attack, so it just means the devs are mitigating the threat not that the threat has been confirmed as real.

Sounds like Cyprus with frozen bank accounts all over again.  One thing if there was a fatal flaw that required time to fix, but freezing transactions due to a threat?  Is XMR really this fragile?

Apparently not.
1388  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Amazon not allowing use of word Bitcoin in apps on: September 24, 2014, 05:20:56 AM
Mt. Gox was their Board member at the time so suing a member also has issues. 
Whereas suing other board members is customary.
1389  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: September 24, 2014, 05:04:35 AM
My current understanding of the recent events


Prices are in daily GMT "average(high-low)" format, BTC in USD and XMR in ksat.


2014-9-17
BTC 454(466-444), XMR 387(420-361)

- Bitcoin price started falling and alts fell in sympathy.
- Initial reaction to BCX/Moneroman88 troll debate, despite BCX's attempt to "conclude it".

(the "debate" was that a certain troll not in any way related to Monero developers or community, had provoked BCX in private message to claim he has an exploit to Cryptonote code and that he will drive the shitcoin to the ground)

2014-9-18
BTC 429(453-408), XMR 361(389-340)

- Bitcoin further falls, so does XMR in a day full of 10k+ dumps. Aminorex calculates that the XMR fall is not attributed to a special "BCX scare" but is just a result of Bitcoin falling, which alts tend to magnify.

2014-9-19
BTC 400(429-379), XMR 366(390-351)

- Bitcoin capitulation. XMR does not make further lows, threats towards attacking the blockchain with the CN exploit seem to abate.

2014-9-20
BTC 414(431-390), XMR 325(380-281)

- BCX suddenly announces that he will attack XMR in 72 hours unless the exploit is found and fixed in that amount of time.
- A taskforce consisting of (in no particular order) AnonyMint, jl777, crypto_zoidberg, me, and some Monero developers, is formed to tackle the challenge catered to us.
- Price tanks.

2014-9-21 so far
BTC 404(414-395), XMR  318(345-286)

- Quiet. Developers are working to find possible attack vectors. The market thinks that the lethal attack materializes in 17% probability currently (calculating 300/360, the current price divided by the baseline).

The volume-weighted average price in each the 3 days after the attack, including today, has been 316. Simply put, the market has not made any adjustment in the perception of the value of XMR during the time. From speculation standpoint, everyone who gets suckered to the pumps or panics in the dumps, plays inoptimally. The one who supports the price below 316 and provides coins for sale above it, plays optimally.

However, there is the danger that the price will go flash crash and then to terminal decline. If you believe this is the case with high enough probability, you should aim to sell, and you cannot ask for 316 if you want volume. 310 average might be possible for small lots and higher slippage for higher ones.

If the attack does not materialize or comes out weaker than expected, the price may also be ready for a rally. Loading up now at the bottom is a good idea, and you should expect to be able to buy at about 322.

With the BTC rise * XMR rise, we are back around the pre-threat price in fiat.  It seems the market may have now fully discounted the threat.
1390  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency (mandatory upgrade) on: September 24, 2014, 04:58:13 AM
This just in: BCX has channeled all his hash power into a worm hole through which he can traverse space-time.
You have 72 hours to devise a defense.

The Dr. is in.

1391  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 24, 2014, 04:51:55 AM
Still frozen on Bittrex. This mean it's dead? Huh

Monero cant be traded on bittrex anymore?  Huh

I suspect that a bunch of the exchanges are halting deposits and withdrawals with the block chain for hours or a day, to be safer than safe, but I suspect you can fully trade XMR in and out of any other coins, just not put them on the block chain.
1392  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 24, 2014, 02:21:58 AM
Yawn.. this isn't nearly as entertaining as I thought it would be.

Is Monero being attacked or not? If someone is performing a TW attack is there any way to tell?

From my experience with time warps attacks it takes a couple of days before the symptoms start to occur, but when they do....the chaos is sweet.


~BCX~


Oh, so, like, 72 hours or so? Rightio.  Roll Eyes

2 more weeks
1393  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 23, 2014, 08:45:25 PM
prolly just veryfing in his sandbox he said he had with the new checkpoints

source?

Github
1394  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Anyone following the ebola outbreak? on: September 23, 2014, 08:20:11 PM

With an already severely compromised immune system, and the huge variation of blood borne diseases, there is nothing much helpful from doing this in this way.
The existence of any antibodies in the bought blood are not going to be helpful in the creation of the infected person's own antibodies.
It is more sympathetic magic than anything curative.

As a vaccine, that is a different matter, but you are giving yourself a disease (or several) that is likely just much better avoided.

There is one paper which shows that in some cases the blood transfusions may actually help to survive:

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/179/Supplement_1/S18.long

However, the method was tested only with 8 patients: "because of the small number of patients studied and the lack of control subjects, we cannot conclude that the neutralizing antibodies in transfused convalescent blood improves the outcome for EHF patients."
I would speculate that this would very well be the result of "good luck" on the part of the people who received the blood transfusions. It is said that ~50% of people that are infected with ebola will survive the disease. With such a small sample of people it would not be unrealistic to say that all of these 8 people would be part of the "lucky" 50% that survive.

I'm guessing that this study was not done with blood bought off the street.
Buying and transfusing blood from the "black market" (without even a SR-like rating system)?
That is desperation.
I would say these people were essentially going "all in" with the blood transfusion. In a quite literal sense.
This would be freaking hilarious if it weren't so sad. :/
1395  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 23, 2014, 08:15:45 PM
Checkpoints would require a TW attack to start after the CP, and is a manual intervention.  The devs probably did it to help restore calm more than anything else.

I wasn't disagreeing with you in my prior post (hadn't even read your post yet), because I meant the TW attack could intermix the legitimate and attack chains from the CPs forward.

I like disagreements.  It often means I am about to learn something, which generally makes my day.

I think you have the concept accurately.  Any miners with current code (that include the CP) will not honor a chain having a block at the height of the CP that doesn't match the CP hash, but from there forward, it is open season once again.
1396  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 23, 2014, 08:01:12 PM
It seems that Monero will not be able to fix the vulnerability in time.

I noticed today they added checkpoints in preparation for the attack: https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero

So.. what does this mean? Will the checkpoints sufficiently defend against the attack?

I know that checkpoints are used to defend against a 51% attack. I would assume they could be used to secure the chain from a TW exploit as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

If my recent conceptual post is correct, the check points might not help because the legitimate and bad forks could be intermixed?? So you'd be unwinding legitimate transactions? I am the wrong person to ask. I have no experience with these sort of attacks. This is mostly off the top of my head in the span of a couple of hours. The anonymity issue was something I felt more qualified to delve into.

A CP means that any fork (such as a TW chain) would have to start after the CP.  I don't see any way to intermix blocks of chains after a fork, but certainly TX could end up on both chains if that is what you are suggesting?

The anon issue is interesting to me as well.  It would seem if rings are poisoned with known keys in order to surface a TX true endpoints, then if there are multiple non-cooperating entities doing this, it could prevent the success of either.
1397  Other / Archival / Re: delete on: September 23, 2014, 07:33:47 PM
It seems that Monero will not be able to fix the vulnerability in time.

I noticed today they added checkpoints in preparation for the attack: https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero

So.. what does this mean? Will the checkpoints sufficiently defend against the attack?

Bla bla bla... I'm a troll... Bla bla bla


My question was directed towards someone that has insight into the vulnerability and sufficient technical knowledge to answer my question... Such as a Monero developer or Anonymint... Not trolls. :p

Checkpoints would require a TW attack to start after the CP, and is a manual intervention.  The devs probably did it to help restore calm more than anything else.

However, there may be a way to obsolete the need for adding this type of checkpoint to prevent TW and similar types of attack vectors in new coins.  The threatened attack has caused me to offer a minor new thought on the matter, but it is more the sort of thing that ought be implemented with care, not as a haphazard incident response to a threatened emergency.  

This notion may also be entirely wrong headed and need to be reworked a few times before it makes it into codebase, if it works at all.  The take home message for me is that we don't always have the luxury of advance warning for an attack.  This idea, or something like it, is needed for an ongoing protection in perpetuity.  I've left it with the dev team to evaluate and am comfortable that they are capable to do so.
1398  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: September 23, 2014, 06:48:43 PM
1399  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: September 23, 2014, 06:28:26 PM
Can you feel the squeeze?
1400  Economy / Economics / Re: The Export-Import Bank on: September 23, 2014, 06:14:27 PM
In reality, the only entity that can protect the US economy from other government aggressors is the US government. This has nothing to do with domestic politics. The ex-im bank protects the US economy from trade war with other countries. You are implying that AIG and other insurance companies should be able to protect itself and fight in War with other countries.

The only thing that can protect the US Economy are those that are productively participating in that economy.  To the extent people involved in governing skew the economy for and against particular participants, it damages it.

In "reality" the US government is the greatest enemy of the US economy, and the entity best able to wreck it despite its good intentions.

You're suggestion that the ex-im bank is an instrument of war is not so persuasive in justifying it.

Its like cutting off your arm to use as a weapon, sure it extends your reach for the matter at hand, but afterward you are one-armed and there are more fights ahead.  There are better tools to achieve your goal then undue market influence by those subject to political influence.  Yes, even AIG is better, its only partially a government agent, apparently on an as-needed basis.

Crypto currency is also among those better tools.  Government would be better served getting the hang of what it offers before its left behind.
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