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I agreed with your point as it is "unproven" but no it is not overpriced. We are offering lower prices for group buys as we said. If you want 1 K1 Nano and do not want to pay that price. Get one chip, get a board and diy. I believe that is a great idea so much so a few K1s will be featured in my schools curriculum and the middle school students will be building these K1s. That is available check that out if you want a much better ROI. We are offering fabricated, tested, burned in, packaged units shipped worldwide.
I value your point but I don't agree the K1 should considered something of a lesser product especially how we hope to get our version to market. We are keen on having something that could overclock as well... we will see given the latest post by BKK it is possible to do just that with some minor component changes.
I just think there is a lot more value in supporting these units over "proven" ones especially given the effort put into giving away everything as open source hardware and the software as well, that is something that has a lot more value beyond the ROI. It will help the community fund more of these projects. We are looking beyond the K1 to other projects as well but let us support the DIY developers. Alten, Burnin and BKKCoins. Our K1s are just one offering there are many others.
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http://bigpicturemining.com/ <--- still not ready for orders as we are trying to get accurate numbers on the shipping from Batam via DHL. In the meanwhile you can have a look around the site for now. perhaps this is another dumb question, but is pricing of 0,99 BTC final? Price: BTC0.99 1-9 10 or more BTC0.89 50 or more BTC0.79 Also no it is not the highest price we could have chosen. We are trying to price these to compete with asicminer The Asicminer design is a proven design. This board is not. As a confirmed Capitalist, I believe that you should charge whatever the market will bear; however, if I have a choice between a proven device like a Block Erupter, and an experimental device like this at the exact same price, I will go with the more market-proven device every time. Good luck with your sales. Once bkkcoins complete testing in 3-4 days the k1 will also be a proven design and if you buy the k1 in a group buy you can pay 0.79 per k1 instead of 0.99-1.10 for a asicminer device that gets hotter has a horrible heatsink and has a higher hw error%. There is a world of difference between passing initial prototype testing, and being widely market-tested. I sincerely hope the K1 turns out to be a better device than the BE, but I have no reason to believe it is at the moment, and neither do you. Sounds like a bet... go post it. We have the confidence that the K1 Nano will be a functional unit and it will easily equal the Block Erupter. Will we be right? Given the testing that has been done and is being done we feel pretty confident with these units. So again yes .99 BTC seems to be a fair price for a few units. And we have opted to give larger discounts as it were for those wishing to purchase larger volumes. No technology being sold can be considered at the same level or quality as say an Apple or a Sony so basically you have to put your faith, hopefully educated faith, on these people developing the units. I would say Asicminer, Avalon are proven. Avalon chips are proven. Will the K1 Nano we fabricate reach that level? Maybe given the work you are seeing out of BKKCoins. I think anyone in the community with technical skills is quite comfortable backing BKKCoins and his units. Not seen any negatives directed at his approach and I take that as a sign that his design will work first time out of the gate. But your definitely correct it is "unproven" however it has VALUE even if it is unproven. It is a risk as is any purchase of an Erupter or K16 or say BitBurner XX or Alten's offering. But you know what we as a COOP really want to put our backing behind a guy who has literally put out a free design for the community. We want to support that. That to us is the intangible. Maybe crazy to put your money into a K1 Nano but you know what given how open the design process has been there is a lot more VALUE in supporting a K1 that is "unproven" merely to show respect the developer, but more so to say as community YES we support your efforts and we want more designs to be open source. |
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If you want 1 it is perfectly priced since our members went back and forth on this very point. I would also say that by posting our prices the competition immediately lowered prices for their Block Erupters. So ya I think we are ok for now with .99 BTC.
If you want hundreds of these K1's we can talk about even larger discounts directly with the Coop.
Also there are some group buys. Beastlymac is running one. So there are options to buy your K1 Nanos from us at much reduced rates from .99 BTC per unit in the form of Group Buys. Hope that helps. We welcome the dialogue on prices remember we are miners and fanboys of BitCoin just like everyone else so we are trying to find a happy middle ground for everyone. Also we want to ship as many as we can as soon as we can just to get revenue flowing back to BKKCoin. Given the competition for these kinds of units and the current prices we really feel it is the right move to offer K1s in such a pricing structure. Time will tell if the community agrees.
We appreciate the question madmax_ger.
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Sorry if this is a dumb question. What is the expected hash rate of your USB units?
UPDATED ANSWER: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2741445#msg2741445Bicknellski: In terms of a K1 is 350+ possible with the current design with a hub that provides the right power? Bkkcoins: I think 350 may be possible but is pushing it. Above that you would definitely need to change parts on the K1 board. Replace AP6502A with AP6503A for 3A output (probably a good idea now but beyond what a std USB port can supply anyway), and replace the inductor with one that can handle more current. I haven't looked that up yet but it would need to fit on the same pads. |
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 Lovin' the logo from one of our members. |
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In terms of a K1 is 350+ possible with the current design with a hub that provides the right power?
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Here for information on hashing testing of the chips in K1 and K16 configurations: 350 on K16 BKKCoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2705473#msg2705473300 and 350 on K1 marto74: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2706866#msg2706866Some data from Burnin's testing of his boards, may be useful for BKK. It seems that HW errors are not linear with frequency: ambient: 25°C, water temperature 26°C
Chip Frequency - Chip surface temp, cgminer board-temp, Core voltage, power consumption, comments
Air cooling:
282 - 45.8, 40.5, 1.2, 46W, stable
340 - 50, 43, 1.2, 56W, stable
372 - 51.5, 45, 1.2, 61W, stable
390 - 52.5, 46, 1.2, 2% hw errors
390 - 53.3, 47.5, 1.25, 70W, stable
409 - 55, 48.5, 1.25, 2% errors
409 - 56.5, 51, 1.28, 77W, stable
434 - 57, 52, 1.28, 82W, 10% hw errors
Water cooling by Anfi-Tec:
282 - 40, 30, 1.016V, 33W, stable 170Mhash/watt undervolting
282 - 42, 30, 1.085V, 37W, stable
282 - 45, 30, 1.20V, 46W, stable stock 122Mhash/Watt
340 - 48, 30, 1.20V, 56W, stable
372 - 50, 30, 1.20V, 61W, stable
390 - 53, 30, 1.25V, 70W, stable
409 - 54, 30, 1.28V, 77W, stable
434 - 57, 31, 1.28V, 82W, 4% hw errors |
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Think it should be only 1 signed K1 and it should go at auction.
Yeah... No. I already called it.  Might want to keep requests like this to a min and maybe we get back to the thread. LoL .... let the hero win the battle first. |
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Think it should be only 1 signed K1 and it should go at auction.
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http://bigpicturemining.com/ <--- still not ready for orders as we are trying to get accurate numbers on the shipping from Batam via DHL. In the meanwhile you can have a look around the site for now.
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Well the idea would be to put a 2nd layer with a fans above or also thinking of a laptop cooler type fans the larger 300mm but it would be a couple of months before we had something like that. I was able to find new Ipad sync 49 port usb hubs for under $900 but that is still 19$ a port. Only option get one made.
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Sorry if this is a dumb question. What is the expected hash rate of your USB units?
Nope not a dumb question... 256 is the basic clock rate I believe that BKKCoins is using for the firmware / cgminer but he has had the chips on his K16 board stable at 341 Mh/s with heat sink and fan. As this is a work in progress and given that he is putting out a new beta revised K1 and K16 board next week not sure what the final numbers will be. 282 Mh/s is the standard for Avalon chips. 450 Mh/s is the highest you could reach in optimal / aggressive cooling with a perfect chip under perfect conditions (oil cooling / water block cooling). My guess from what I read. 350+ with a good heat sink and fan. Our K1s will have a decent sized heat sink so spacing on hubs will need to be sufficient for our K1's. We will post which hubs fit best with our K1s. We are sourcing a few different hubs. Also read carefully the last few pages of BKKCoins testing it is very important to have a good hub, wires, and controller to lower HW errors. Follow his progress on the K1 and K16 here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2732864#msg2732864K16 Board Revision is completed. Here is a list of changes:
v0.3.0 - Final testing
- Dual NOR gate replaces Single NOR gate
- Inverters added before PIC on result data, clk
- Schottky Diode added across Fan terminals
- 1K resistor added to pull down FET gate
- Ferrite beads added to AVDD on ASIC PLL supply
- Ferrite beads added to USB D+/D-/GND and shield to GND
- moved PIC decoupling capacitor to be closer to PIC
- added 2 more decoupling capacitors near PIC and inverters
- added NPTh for PICe connector to support horizontal version
- Phoenix 2 pin power connector removed
- new logo added (thanks Laserhorse!)
- moved thermistor to between U7,U8
- moved large input capacitors a little for better PCIe clearance
- small edits to clean up traces here and there
- repositioned a few parts
- footprints verified and updated against data sheets Here for information on hashing testing of the chips in K1 and K16 configurations: 350 on K16 BKKCoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2705473#msg2705473300 and 350 on K1 marto74: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2706866#msg2706866Glad to answer any and all questions Rotorgeek... we are basically here to do just that. |
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We will be doing a 24 hour burn on each K1 before it is shipped. Given the work BKKCoins is doing I suspect that his design will provide a superior product. The real measure I think is time. How fast will you get those KnCs versus Block Erupters and our K1s. ROI is certainly going to be tight any miner you buy and we are trying to price competitively especially for group buys. Hope whichever you chose it works out for you!
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Whew.... K16 so so so so close...
Avalon chips ... so so so so close...
Wow. So much respect BKKCoins. Can't wait to sell out our K1s and pass on your developer fees as soon as possible.
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Also, focus on getting the heat outdoors. What is the point if you're still blowing it in the room to be dissipated by the air conditioning unit? You should focus on a model similar to the portable air conditioner units that have window mount exhausts, only in this case, window mount radiators. Even in extreme environments, like Arizona/New Mexico, you're still able to air exchange the heat and keep the oil at < 55C.
That's an opaque wall in the diagram, I guess, is hard to see but I put it between the tank and heat exchanger obviously we would put the heat exchanger outside. Not much room on tinkercad workspace. We will source as you have instructed and update the list. In terms of getting huge orders of oil don't think that will happen not as easy here in Indonesia to source things like this so we will do what we can. Worry about getting bamboozled on the oil. I will try and get a tank that does less than 350 gallons but will need to see on prices. I don't have the resources and need to have something smaller that I can manage. Also what about fiberglass tanks they should be ok would they not? What about PEX pipes as they are much easier to fit and manipulate are they prone to degrading with this oil? Oil or Hydraulic Pumps? Notes: Indium under the heatsinks or a copper shim. Heat exchanger all metal properly engineered. Transformer oil as specified. Steel tanks (Fiberglass?). Fittings and pipes metal (PEX?). Do proper calculations before parts purchased. "Thermodynamics and fluid dynamics are sciences not something you come up with an end all solution without calculation, experimentation, and process metrics and refinement." |
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Doing a little layout work...   |
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Currently working on a Hub design for 49 K1s and 1 Raspi.  K1 mocked up with 3mm thick heat sink plate and 5mm fins.  |
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