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Someone, m3sSh3aD, hasn't read their Noam Chomsky and has definitely drank a bit too much of the Zeitgeist koolaid.
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Forgot to lock this topic there Phin.
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Update: EndgameWith ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth less than their shipping costs. Driven by this event, today I was flooded with refund requests that built up a queue of ~2000 chips. I do not expect any takers for this and it is realistic to assume that there will be no further refunds. I am sad to admit that I do not believe in a fast and complete delivery of the remaining batches. This stopped to be a game the moment this group-buy alone funneled $500k to Avalon. Although we have only a small set of 'no BS rules', we still have a written commitment to deliver in time as part of the ToS. With so many community members taking a loss directly or indirectly through Avalon failing to meet their schedule, we (together with other customers) need to consider taking serious actions to end this tragedy. At this stage our options are as follows: - A. sit and wait
That was my tactics so far, assuming that civilized and respectful behavior will ensure to get our chips as fast as possible. This in fact might have been the reason why so far our group-buy got more chips than others, at the same time with a delivery of one batch per month our last will arrive mid 2014 - ready for re-direction to the Bitcoin museum  - B. demand full refund
The majority would be fine with getting their invested coins back and let this chapter pass into oblivion. According to Avolon's ToS, there will be no refunds. But if they really care about Bitcoin and its community and realize how much harm they caused to so many of us, they might consider playing fair and send us the coins back. This implies that you do not want your chips any more. - C. negotiate for compensation
While refunding all orders might exceed Avalon's capabilities, they might prefer offering a compensation in form of free chips or free upgrades to next-gen ones. This implies you would like continue dealing with Avalon. - D. legal action
Leave the polite arena and sue them into ground; make an example of them and put an end to the pre-order madness in Bitcoinland. This implies you are willing to throw more good money after the bad - for a very limited expectation. Your money would feed some poor lawyers and Avalon if needed will declare bankruptcy (they said they do not control the collected funds any more).
I personally will approach Avalon with options B and C for now and consider combining forces with other group-buy organizers for D if we do not hear back within a reasonable time-frame. If you have a different opinion you'd like to share, please do so either here or via PM. + 1 We are working on B and D at this point. Please let know how we can help. We have 10K group buy only for our COOP but we are keen to see an immediate resolution. We put in a refund request support ticket on August 5th and messaged Yifu a few times before that date to find out what was going on with our developer chips. Drop me an email if you would like to coordinate darin.bicknell@gmail.com |
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I am tired of this toxic community malformed by greed.
Dude has a point... Yes he does but unfortunately he needs to look in the mirror to see where this malformation by greed has impacted and also where the toxicity is currently leaching from into the Bitcoin community ecosystem. Self-inflicted is all of this and there is no one else to blame but him. There might be a lot of hatred spewed, but personally I don't hate the guy, I am sure he is a perfectly fine enough human being, however, my issue is with his lack of communication and failure to deal directly with his customers. Sadly, if he had done his job properly, communicated effectively and got the product to market on time we would all be happy and not brandishing threats of the litigation. |
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Woohoo! Fallacy of the False Dilemma.
If you pick through a lot of his posts there are many many many more logical fallacies. He doesn't even realise it I am sure. Nice pick up! Happy hunting everyone. http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Logical_fallaciesLogical fallacies FORMAL FALLACIES
Propositional logic
Affirming a disjunct · Affirming the consequent · Argument from fallacy ·
False dilemma
Quantificational logic
Existential fallacy · Illicit conversion · Proof by example · Quantifier shift
Syllogistic
Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise · Exclusive premises · Necessity · Four-term Fallacy ·
Illicit major · Illicit minor · Undistributed middle
FAULTY GENERALISATIONS
General
Begging the question · Gambler's fallacy · Slippery slope · Equivocation · argumentum verbosium
Distribution fallacies
Fallacy of composition · Fallacy of division
Data mining
Cherry picking · Accident fallacy · Spotlight fallacy · Hasty generalization · Special pleading
Causation fallacies
Post hoc ergo propter hoc · Retrospective determinism · Suppressed correlative · Wrong direction
Ontological fallacies
Fallacy of reification · Pathetic fallacy · Loki's Wager
FALSE RELEVANCE
Appeals
Appeal to authority · Appeal to consequences · Appeal to emotion · Appeal to motive ·
Appeal to novelty · Appeal to tradition · Appeal to pity · Appeal to popularity · Appeal to poverty ·
Appeal to spite · Appeal to wealth ·
Sentimental fallacy
Argumentum ad baculum Ad hominem Ad hominem abusive · Reductio ad Hitlerum · Judgmental language · Straw man ·
Tu quoque
Genetic Fallacies
Genetic fallacy · Chronological snobbery · Association fallacy · Appeal to tradition · Texas sharpshooter fallacy |
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Thanks for the details Simon.
If the chip is rated for 5years at 500GH, why is the warranty only 10 to 30 days?
Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do. We've spent some of the day hashing (!) over warranty options for those chips of ours. As I mentioned earlier today, the 10-day warranty was legal boilerplate. And we can and will give a longer warranty for the box, psu, and board. But for the chips, we cannot realistically offer even a 90-day warranty. Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do.What we *can* offer is a program to replace fried chips. You break one (after some initial period - 10 days?), you ship it back to us, and we will send you a new one. Probably including the motherboard, to be safe. Not for free, mind you. But for a helluva lot cheaper than a new mining rig. We are still working out the details (logistics and price). We're just assuming that someone, somewhere out there will push the chips too hard. And we are trying to do right by those people, without being chumps. Check out the thread starting around https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2976145#msg2976145 for discussion of some of the technology that makes our chips run cool & fast. Glad to see a dialogue between the community and the fabricators... Warranty on any products for mining seem to be a real issue. Some of the DIY builds offer nothing more than best efforts and as is conditions for buying due in part to the very limited testing available and time frames that drive the project there is little or no time to actually do lengthy stress testing of units. Can HashFast detail how it will go about testing the units it will offer? Seems like people are asking for more of warranty on the chips as that is the core component and probably the focal point of failure. It seems interesting to offer the MPP but not as much "protection" on the basic chip. Can you explain more about that reasoning? |
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Does this mean the end of the INTERWEBZ?
The end of COMPUTORS??
You mean com-putors? Can we please stop with the waste of space posts like these? This thread is noisy enough as it is. Add something useful to the discussion, or don't post. Oh-tay. |
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I am curious about opinions.
Just say you have a person today that wants to start bitcoin mining. How do they start and be able to at least ROI their investment? Just curious about what your plan would be.
1. Lots of money and a company that has miners in stock ready to ship who have a proven track record. 2. Form a COOPERATIVE of miners and do the same as 1. |
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Agree with everyone agreeing on refunds, since Yifu is offering this it is obviously a good choice for all involved to take advantage of it,
What makes you think he'll actually refund anything? Yifu has shown that he is a bully. He mocks and attacks people constantly in his messages, but then suddenly starts to communicate a little and hint at refunds when Zifur threatens FBI scale legal action over $15M. Bullies back down if you confront them. Steamboat should be friendly but firm with him, give him a choice: a) Refunds batches xx, xx, xx by Sept 1. or b) We (Zefir and I and other batch owners) will contact the FBI division the just put pirate in jail, and work with them to go after you to the full extent of the law. Refunds for all... who have asked. |
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I dont know if this has been speculated on yet. But I saw an interesting point in an article or comment of article(cant remember). But this could be BFL simply reselling cointerra's asics but in a PCIe formfactor. Since each ASIC chip from cointerra does about 500GH... BFL could be buying them, slightly OC'n them.. assemble board & sell....
If this is the case and cointerra delivers on time, BFL could easily get this product delivered in time.
Cointerra already said they won't ship chips which would compete with their customers. But they may be able to get 28nm chips from KNC but who knows. Either way, BFL will be way late. Better to simply say they have NOTHING so that means they will ship NOTHING. Till they show anything of substance the probability of shipping anything is ZERO. |
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i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.
The monarch card they showed the CGI rendering of would never be able to dissipate 350W. And it had the wrong fucking edge connector. That's obvious evidence they just slapped up an image in some 3D graphics program and clearly don't have a working board design. Everyone agrees the image on the page is lame. It doesn't clearly show they don't have a working board design though. The point is they make A CLAIM THEY HAVE TO PROVE IT. That is the minimum standard I suggest we have in this forum for posting in Custom Hardware not imaginary vapourware. If they have any evidence then provide it otherwise this should be removed. |
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How on Earth did this turn into such a huge clusterfuck when the solutions are so simple?
The other and better option would be to give the option of having all gen 1 chip orders count as credit towards gen 2 chips and make delivering these on time a priority. This shows good faith on the company's behalf and not only restores the companies reputation but enhances it.
I dont think anyone wants to continue business with Yifu..... Depends on how he proceeds. Ample opportunity to REDEEM himself and his company and do the right thing and get rid of the toxicity he has created but that needs to happen TODAY not tomorrow. |
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i am not evading the point. You argued my position for me above. You have no way to know what exists or not. You _think_ there isn't anything. You don't _know_. The company does ship product (yes, late, not the same specs, all the crappy stuff they have done) so there is room to believe they could be doing this. And yes, room to believe they aren't because of the terrible track record. But no way to know for sure.
I asked you what is the STANDARD... you are talking about other fabricators. BFL has no evidence, is that sufficient to post in Custom Hardware? No, I would say it that it is not. |
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A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can could post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a hub I had a schematic for the hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want?
I have NOT SEE ANYTHING...
There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof?
BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise.
I'd say that most of the things sold or talked about here really aren't 'custom' hardware. Avalon - no, BFL - No, KNC - no. I'd say that the Mr Teal and Lucko boards are... Stop evading the point. BFL's Monarch is pure fantasy. It doesn't belong in mining at all. It is speculation it is vapourware. |
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A picture and specifications pulled from the air is unacceptable as CUSTOM HARDWARE in my opinion. I can post a picture and give you a song and dance about the specs. When I post about a 50 port hub I had a actual schematic for that hub. When I posted information about a USB Bitfury Miner I posted a prototype board... isn't that the standard we want? I have NOT SEEN ANYTHING POSTED so there is NOTHING THAT EXISTS. There is a TEAPOT flying in orbit behind the moon. Who has the BURDEN of proof? BFL has to prove they have SOMETHING or this stuff needs to moved to off topic or speculation. Waste of space otherwise. I submit that BFL is talking about a cosmic teapot not an actual product. If you have something then prove it. Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot,
is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to
illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically
unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the
case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere
in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to
believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still
referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God. |
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I cant remember the last time I have seen schematics for a TV, or a refrigerator, or a new video card, or a car, or a Blu Ray player or... I think you get the point. Companies sell you a product. They don't give you a PCB diagram before they sell it to you.
The fact there is a DESIGN before they even prototype that means something... there is NOTHING here absolutely NOTHING why are we all accepting that this is going to ship at all... there is NO EVIDENCE it will even get off the design table. |
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Until they actually have a product these posts should be moved to mining speculation right?
Custom hardware should be about something that is actually has been designed and going to fabricated right?
I see the DIYers as the proper model for posting in custom hardware. See BKK or Alten or Burning for an excellent example of what the community should see as the project moves forward.
Offer a template and then a design is built and shown then testing happens and finally boards are produced and revisions made. Companies need to offer more than a picture and made up specification taken from the air and not based on real documented components.
I don't think its realistic to expect a company to provide anything more than specs for upcoming products. Intel doesn't release board designs for products, etc. Although I do think its a good idea to have subforums dedicated to companies that are selling ASIC. So far that would be folks like Avalon, BFL, ASICMiner. And speculation forums for KNCMiner, Hashfast, etc. And then a DIY for people making their own boards. I think there should be a MINIMUM standard for declaring a new product or it should be moved to a VAPOURWARE section. Please... a picture and some napkin scrolled specs is not anything close to real design or evidence this is even a feasible concept. Take a look at what KnC and HashFast provided? Are there not actually designs? Real work on the chips they proposed? Compared to just a picture and some specs? I think we have rightly called scam on such types of posts before. Really needs to be some moderation with this regard. If it is VAPOURWARE it needs to be moved. |
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After they refund not before.
too soon?  |
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After they refund not before. |
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Unfortunately the toxicity is a direct result of the lack of information.
How curious that the bitcoin community thinks the US Government can not force them to do anything, and yet they are forced to make toxic posts because someone else does not post frequently. Aye! Glad to see some slight movement not so sure why but until everyone is refunded who asked for it we are not going to be happy are we. |
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