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1321  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Pros and Cons to Cloakcoin and Darkcoin, lets discuss them. on: August 02, 2014, 10:45:18 AM
thanks. after reading anonymints back and forth with you guys i was under the impression that pruning the bc was questionable and he seems to think it can't be done. it way over my head but he does seem to know his stuff. to clarify he did say it's not possible right? i saw the bbr guy pruned or is pruning some stuff but anonymint claims it's not near enough, correct?

i've seen people talk about the transaction provability part several times but forget the specific phrase they used. i'll check into it and get back to you.

so if i send you some xmr for something and you say you did not get it is there a transaction hash on the bc i can point to and prove it?

thanks for your time.

Both AnonyMint and I agree that pruning, in the Bitcoin sense of the term, is not possible with any of the CryptoNote currencies. That does not mean that other reductions in storage aren't possible, but there will always be a need to keep more data than with Bitcoin and its clones. Specifically, the utxoset *and* the key image set is required, and the key image set is unpruneable. The pruning that BBR does is to remove ring signature proofs, a purely linear pruning and one that I am hesitant about from a cryptographic soundness perspective.

You get a transaction ID for your transaction, most definitely. Here's a transaction of 335 XMR sent to my Monero address (49VNLa9K5ecJo13bwKYt5HCmA8GkgLwpyFjgGKG6qmp8dqoXww8TKPU2PJaLfAAtoZGgtHfJ1nYY8G2 YaewycB4f72yFT6u) on all 3 block explorers:

http://monerochain.info/tx/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
http://chainradar.com/xmr/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
https://minergate.com/blockchain/mro/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d

As you can see, there's no way to track where it came from, where it went to, or even ascertain the correct amount. However, the very act of being able to provide the transaction ID to me (coupled with me receiving it) is normally sufficient to prove a transaction, since only the sender and recipient will know the transaction ID and the amount.

Of course, this isn't the robust or cryptographically sound way of doing it, which is why we're adding tooling to allow someone to reveal the one-time key (which is different to the transaction ID) for their transaction, and the person (or persons) they send that key to can see the exactly details of their transaction on a blockchain explorer or similar. In other words, this functionality is inherent in the protocol and in each transaction, but we just have to give people the ability to both retrieve this information and for someone else to verify it.
1322  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 02, 2014, 10:02:02 AM
Any other opinions on cryptonite?

I personally don't have any, but there has been discussion on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2bp3vk/the_miniblockchain_scheme/
1323  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Cuckoo Cycle revisited on: August 02, 2014, 08:27:58 AM
This just happened in #tahoe-lafs - Zooko pinged out before I could reply, but thought I'd pop it up here for thoughts:

[07:07:59]  zooko:    So I was just looking at https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo
[07:08:46]  zooko:    And I was wondering: suppose you are a plucky little smartphone, and you're competing against a shiny, powerful server, to do cryptocurrency mining which uses cuckoo PoW.
[07:09:22]  zooko:    It occurs to me that if cuckoo can be tuned to fit into 32 KB, then maybe your relative performance vs. the server would be better, because you have a Cortex-A9 with 4 cores and each core has 32 KB of L1 cache
[07:09:42]  zooko:    and your L1 cache has latency comparable to your competitors.
[07:12:24]  zooko:    So, I'm speculating that this would be better for you than a variant of cuckoo pow which lets you use your 1–8 MB of L2 cache, or even your 1–4 GB of DRAM, but also lets your competitor do the same.
[07:12:35]  zooko:    I'm guessing that his DRAM is much more copious and also much lower latency than yours.


1324  Other / Off-topic / Re: The happy BTC circular donation thread on: August 01, 2014, 10:47:48 PM
Sure. It will be listed that you kept it all, for the purpose of donating it to Monero. (I have the feeling that I am a greater beneficiary of Monero's success than you, so I should not be entirely sad that the chain did not continue on your part..)

Everybody is free to form an opinion about what is untowardly or not.   Cheesy

Thank you very much - I am moved by how forthcoming you and others in the community have been to driving Monero development:)
1325  Other / Off-topic / Re: The happy BTC circular donation thread on: August 01, 2014, 10:37:29 PM
Hopefully nobody will think me untoward in doing this, but I'm going to pledge my entire 1 BTC to the Monero dev donation address. Is that allowed?
1326  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 01, 2014, 09:21:21 PM
Are you kidding me? Ask eizh, tacotime and smooth to post here if they mined from launch or not.

You are nothing but a dumb cheerleader who has forced himself onto this coin as a "core" team member. You are not needed. This coin will be better off without dumb propagandists like you and it will really take off then.

You made the accusation, why don't you provide evidence to support your accusation?

The rest of your diatribe is ridiculous vitriol that attempts to invent political issues where there are none, and speaks to events and people you do not know and thus cannot speak of. Ad hominem attacks on people you don't know have never worked in the history of the Internet, so I'm quite unsure why you imagine it's going to work now.

Do you, inside your mind, think that when you post what you posted that people will come flocking out of the woodwork and go "you're right - that fluffypony is a dumb propagandist and needs to go!" Is that what you believe will happen?

And now that I think about it - why hide behind a pseudonym that's barely a pun? What's the harm in using your own account?

I'm done responding to you. This conversation ends now, from my side.
1327  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Cuckoo Cycle Speed Challenge; $2500 in bounties on: August 01, 2014, 09:06:17 PM
Quote
... wish there were some venue to publish this stuff in. Smiley

You could do as I did and publish on the Cryptology ePrint Archive. That's good for exposure, but, lacking peer-review, not so good for academic merit:-(

The problem is there's nothing like Nature when it comes to cryptography (and certainly nothing like Pubmed). Then again, compared to medical sciences, this is an industry that is still very much in its infancy.
1328  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 01, 2014, 08:54:52 PM
Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.


You are misinformed. You and othe are not really "developers" anyways. You are more marketing and strategy and busy with propaganda. tacotime is the only real developer and quite frankly sad to see him now being involved with this.

Check in BitMonero launch thread. eizh, tacotime, smooth were all there since Block1. Smooth was selling BMR since the beginning and had immenese mining power at his disposal. (Not dissing smooth. You guys keep spreading false propaganda and nowadays outright lies, knowingly or otherwise and dragging some others down with your shit).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563821.0

We're not really developers? You know this how? Do you have our CVs lying around? You are not qualified to make the sweeping statements you've made, unless you can qualify it with some sort of tangible evidence.

I never said that we didn't mine Monero at all, but your assertion that we had some sort of magically powerful miner is factually incorrect. Your assumption that smooth was mining Monero en masse is also incorrect. The general consensus among us in those very, very early days was that there was no reason for Monero to exist. Choice quotes from smooth, for instance:

I'm starting to doubt there is really a good reason for this besides people wanting to pump and dump. The original is starting to get more and more traction in the community (beyond what may or may not exist on the darknet). It will be hard for a clone to overcome that lead.

If anything I'd propose a bitcoin spin-off clone instead. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.0

eizh, too, also didn't think much of Monero at launch:

I've been mining BCN and I'll support it just because I firmly believe in the need for anonymity, but there would be a tinge of regret that we could've had something better.

That their opinion changed later as the truth of Bytecoin's premine was revealed and Monero progressed only goes to prove that it moved in the right direction.

You are a troll account with a troll nickname spreading troll nonsense with no evidence.

PS. At least eizh doesn't have that tinge of regret right about now:)
1329  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [XMR] Monero Client .NET - A GUI wallet made for Windows on: August 01, 2014, 08:29:30 PM
Brad!! No outgoing transactions in history! where can I find the ID,?Huh
The money goes to your wallet!
You cheater!

Covers - testing!


To you coins, steel throat and you choked. asshole!
Fagot.

Children like you annoy me. The release was for testing only, as clarified by these two statements:

Please be aware that this is a test release, thus, it isn't being beamed by auto-update

This release is experimental and should not be used in production, but for testing purposes only. It is meant to bring the core development team a bigger tester base for using the new daemon and rpcwallet

Regardless, your inability to read and comprehend something this basic does not preclude Jojatekok's client from working. If your balance has adjusted downwards, then the coins have been sent. There may be a payment ID issue, in which case you merely need to contact the exchange and give them the details for them to track it down. Your coins are not lost, that is practically impossible. You cannot blame a piece of software for your own stupidity, and your abuse in your comment is unacceptable.
1330  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 01, 2014, 07:52:32 PM
If it was there for the purpose of giving someone an advantage, it really isn't the same thing. Ideally, optimization would not be necessary, because a crippled hash wouldn't be used.

Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.

I looked back at my IRC logs - othe asked me on 2014-04-26 if I'd heard of it, over a week after it had launched. Here's a typical example of our early conversations:


[2014-04-26T14:07:42+0200] <othe> cant get boost installed here > 1.5.3
[2014-04-26T14:07:56+0200] <fluffypony> I've gotten boost 1.55 installed
[2014-04-26T14:07:58+0200] <fluffypony> the problem is
[2014-04-26T14:08:06+0200] <fluffypony> when it tries to statically link the executables
[2014-04-26T14:08:12+0200] <fluffypony> it isn't linking the boost libs
[2014-04-26T14:13:59+0200] <othe> [ 46%] Building CXX object src/CMakeFiles/wallet.dir/wallet/wallet_rpc_server.cpp.o Linking CXX static library libwallet
[2014-04-26T14:14:01+0200] <othe> that one?
[2014-04-26T14:14:12+0200] <fluffypony> no after that
[2014-04-26T14:14:20+0200] <fluffypony> Linking CXX executable simplewallet
[2014-04-26T14:14:22+0200] <fluffypony> all of those
[2014-04-26T14:14:25+0200] <fluffypony> Linking CXX executable bitmonerod


We couldn't even get it to run properly, much less mine with any sort of magic miner! That very day tacotime, NoodleDoodle, othe, and myself, started talking about it and discussing things like if it could (conceptually) merge-mine with Bitcoin clones and so on (even though othe and I were still struggling to get it to work). The rest, as they say, is history.
1331  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Untraceable payments on: August 01, 2014, 06:23:25 PM
is there such thing as completely untraceable payments in the crypto currency world? I know bitcoin can be tracked through the blockchain- like when sheepsmarket was hacked and the guy followed him through hundreds of accounts and a tumbler. You would think for something as hardcore on anonymity as the crypto world there would be less transparency...

Yes - Monero has cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions. You can check any of the Monero blockchain explorers, such as monerochain.info, and drill down to a transaction and try figure out who sent it and who received it:)
1332  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Cloakcoin's PoSA is not a trustless system for anonymous transaction on: August 01, 2014, 01:18:11 PM
Is Monero more secure than CLOAK?

I'm clearly biased, and I am unfamiliar with how Cloakcoin plans on achieving their stated goals. There are concerns raised in the post above your one that remain to be answered. Cloakcoin also does not appear to have their proposed anonymous system operational and open-source at this stage.

Monero is cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable, as confirmed by the peer-review our mathematicians and cryptographers did of the CryptoNote whitepaper, and confirmed on this board by people with a strong grounding in cryptography (eg. AnonyMint). It has been so from the genesis block onwards. The code that enables these untraceable transactions has been open-source and reviewed by many from the moment Monero launched. The anonymity works, and works now. We are improving the cryptography and code so that attacks that attempt to reduce the anonymity set are limited to the point of impossibility.
1333  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Btc38: If you were leader of exchange, what will you do facing so many coin on: August 01, 2014, 01:12:08 PM
[quote author=digitalindustry link=topic=716301.msg8134671#msg8134671 date=1406894I think you are missing the point and not thinking outside the box :

1. only list crypto that meet a set of specific regulations

2. then open voting.

you are confused re CNY it would provide zero pressure on any crypto.

- user logs in

- user trans crypto to CNY (any they chose in the current crosses)

- user puts in a bid on a crypto

regarding multiple accounts who cares its irrelevant, if they really want to see it list so bad and its passed the (scam test ) more power to them .
[/quote]

Selling any cryptocurrency for CNY for the purpose of voting puts downwards pressure on those cryptocurrencies. It may not be measurable or relevant at first, but when someone dumps a crapload of coins so that they can vote for the next coin they've mined at low difficulty the market will feel it.

btc38 has already pointed out earlier that they won't look at voting systems that can be Sybil attacked, so it is relevant.
1334  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 01, 2014, 12:57:22 PM
I have no complaints and no gripes with how the coin is being developed. I think it is the right way to develop a coin that is privacy and security orientated. I think my post might have had a bit of an anti-Monero tone to it and I didn't mean for it to - I think I was just launching off onto a mini rant about useability and not taking the wider context - but fundamentally, I think Monero is heading in the absolute right direction for what it was designed to achieve.

Don't worry, I didn't take it as being negative at all:) I'm a massive, massive advocate of "form over function" (or, maybe more specifically, "simple and elegant over complex and customisable"), and Monero will get that.
1335  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 01, 2014, 11:21:38 AM
I feel Monero is rapidly heading into the "user-friendly" proportion of crypto users. Not everybody is comfortable with CLI wallets and we need to accept that. When a good 95% of other alts out there are Qt-based - with a nice shiny front-end GUI with logos and taskbar icons and cross-platform compatability for use on shiny MacBooks, Microsoft Surface tablets and desktop Windows units, which users know how to use and abuse - when these users are then confronted with Monero - a (at first glance) CLI-only wallet, I don't think anyone can blame them for being surprised. I was, when I first opened the wallet, and I use CLI every single day at work. I think the cries for an official GUI are warranted - those users who have no technical background and are only into cryptos for the trading aspect are not going to appreciate the CLI interface. The sad truth is there are a lot of users who come from this background. The high rollers with the huge BTC wallets are those users. Day traders and investors are often not technical - they come from banking, stocks and shares professions. They may not have the time nor the patience to get to grips with the CLI. They just want something that works and works well. Qt (for the most part) provides that and I think Monero is loosing out a bit in that regard.

This is my opinion, this isn't fact. Whilst we can say "learn to use the CLI" or "just go and get the unofficial .NET or Qt wallet" that won't stop people who don't have the time/don't want to use an unofficial client abandoning Monero. Usability is a huge factor in any product when it comes to uptake from the consumer. The wallet being CLI-only isn't a problem as such but it is something to discuss long-term. If we don't want to attract users that don't want to learn how to use the CLI then who do we want to attract? And does that then mean that Monero is only for a certain user group and not for everyone?

Points to mull over I suppose.

There's still a ton of work to be done till this is remotely feasible. Can you imagine if we had the world's most beautiful cross-platform wallet right now, but to use it you need several gigabytes of available memory, and it'll max out your 20mbps line?

Moreover, if Monero is to be treated by users as a private, secure, untraceable cryptocurrency, we need to be more certain of those three aspects. We are reasonably assured right now, but there is still a great deal of cryptanalysis and threat modelling that is lacking due to the inherited reference code. We cannot be lackadaisical with this, as it is other people's money we will be putting at risk.

Edit: that's not to say we aren't actively working on things that improve usability, but there are fundamentals that are more important before we can focus on - and drive - usability. I understand this may be at-odds with other cryptocurrencies who are given the silver platter of 5+ years of Bitcoin development by forking it, but we do not have that luxury.
1336  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 01, 2014, 10:18:56 AM
Checking Github is all fine and good, but we should also take into account that not everyone will be able to understand progress by checking a dev repository.

Agreed, which is why we have the weekly Monero Missive so that nobody has to check the various github forks:)
1337  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 01, 2014, 10:18:02 AM
Donations have been slow

I set up some guidelines in the donation thread, one is the accountability and transparency in the use of donations:
- who decides how money is spent
- who spends it
- how is it accounted for and monitored.

I kindly ask the devteam to write a few lines about this, so I feel much better to donate and promote others to do so.

EDIT: I don't have any distrust towards Monero devs, but there's a certain Forum that calls me Donator for the reason that I donated 10 BTC to them and none of it has been used for anything useful, as far as I know.

Sure: we've published the view key for the donation wallet precisely so there can be transparency (although, admittedly, the tooling does not exist as yet for anyone to peek in). The core team all decide together when money has to be spent.

A typical example could be where a team member wants to spend 20 hours working on Monero in a week. This necessitates them not spending those 20 hours working on their "normal" stuff that makes sure they can pay their bills at the end of the month. In this event, they can indicate the minimum rate necessary for them to recoup this lost income, and it is paid out of the dev donations.

Similarly, the cost of bandwidth used to serve blockchain downloads is heavy. We are moving those to infrastructure on unmetered ports, but that infrastructure also carries a cost.

Of course, since the donations have been slow, 90% of this is typically paid by those of us in the core team that have funds on-hand, in the hopes of recouping them at some point in the future.

Every expenditure is noted. We will likely make this public in some form in the future, but that will be subsequent to us receiving legal and financial advice as to the tax and privacy implications in doing so.
1338  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Pros and Cons to Cloakcoin and Darkcoin, lets discuss them. on: August 01, 2014, 09:36:05 AM
what about the scalability problem from bloating and the mass adoption issue of non provable transactions. seems like those issues would prevent mass adoption.

Ooooh, this is my area of knowledge:)

Firstly, any mixing technology will also have bloat - you understand that, right? If it goes through 8 hops that's 8 entries in the blockchain. The ONLY advantage that a cryptocurrency using mixing has is that they *can* prune the blockchain (not that they have or even necessarily know how). There is no evidence to suggest that Monero can't prune its blockchain - it absolutely can. The only thing that is currently viewed as hard-to-do-maybe-to-the-point-of-being-impossible is pruning of the key image set and the utxoset, but the blockchain itself can be pruned right up to the highest block.

I also have never heard of Monero transactions being "non-provable". If that were the case your wallet wouldn't know that a particular transaction is meant for you. It does so by "proving" it is. Baked right into the protocol is a "view key" that can be used to expose multiple transactions, and each transaction has a one-time key that can be exposed to show the details of a transaction and confirm it is yours. Monero is, thus, cryptographically anonymous and unlinkable, and optionally transparent on a per-transaction basis. NB: The tooling to both reveal this and inspect it is still being written, but every transaction from the genesis block on has been functionally anonymous and has this optional transparency baked in.

How do other coins handle this? I mean, how do you reveal a transaction in Darkcoin/XC/Cloakcoin and prove it came from you?
1339  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Btc38: If you were leader of exchange, what will you do facing so many coin on: August 01, 2014, 08:14:45 AM
so for example if you have voting and make it in CNY - anyone can transfer Crypto to a crypto listed there and then buy CNY to vote on a currency.

What just happened?

A - Well you know that the people that voted on the currency have an account because
B-  they had to log in and transferred a crypto to CNY  on your platform.
C- this means then that there was a cost and it doesn't discriminate The cost was in both Time and a small amount of CNY
D - so you make a vote work XXX CNY - a fairly low cost

but look what had to be done to achieve the vote THIS is the important part about voting.

I don't think this is a workable solution. Not only will this put downward pressure on their cryptocurrencies against CNY, but it is not impervious to Sybil / sockpuppet attacks as mentioned further up in this thread. It's also no more progressive than MintPal, who require you have actively traded a minimum amount before you can vote (albeit with a removal of the paid voting), and as you may or may not know, the MintPal voting system is already successfully Sybil attacked on an ongoing basis.

btc38 already agreed that this is unworkable:

If we allow user only have one vote, they can register more account to vote.
If we forbid new account, other would not visit our website.
It is a mind-bending problems

Elsewhere in this thread someone mentioned something to the effect of "making it harder to vote makes it harder to use", which is also true. If, for example, you use GPG as a way of reducing identity, you make it substantially harder for non-technical traders to vote, but you don't stop someone clever from creating thousands of GPG keys. Right now there is no solution to this - Intel tried to solve this by baking an RSA key into their TPM module that all business laptops have, but that is years away from streamlined integration into a browser, and even then it's problematic because some ethernet cards come with a TPM module.
1340  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 01, 2014, 08:08:06 AM
I'm long time lurker too, want to ask why is a new update taking so long, is there trouble in development? are more donations needed? other coins are getting ahead (CLOACK, BOLBERRY...)

We have a Monero Missive once a week with updates. The last update was last week, the next one will be this week:)

Donations have been slow, which does make things tricky, but there has certainly been no lack of movement on things, as the Missive and the dev diary always do detail.
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