[ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet

[Anon136]

You could put an endless series of unique identities on the BIP 32 tree structure. Its personal identity management we are talking about here. This is identity freedom. Identity empowerment.

For regular world "credit rating" you would need to consolidate everything into one identity though. There's just no way around that. One social security number / tax identification number / social insurance number / driver's license number / passport number. If you're a normal average person who would go through a normal average life, you need to stick to one identity for your home, your credit, your car and any loans from a normal bank.

Yep this is already the world we live in. But right now its very hard to live an alternative lifestyle, trezor would make living the alternative lifestyle more possible. Additionally it would vastly improve your security if you did decide to go the mainstream route. And its use would have massive external benefits mostly realized in the form of lower prices for goods and services for previously mentioned reasons.

Really using the identity that was attached to your real physical person would just afford you a deeper line of credit at a lower interest rate. Simply because it would make creditors more comfortable to know they could find and badger the real you if you failed to fulfill. You are always going to get a better interest rate if you expose your real person, but plenty of people would get good interest rates without doing that im sure.

[Carlton Banks]

Won't give up your keys? "Thought crime" will put a stop to that. These "just-following-orders" types need to actually realise that everyday people can secure their own rights, that rights are not always something that someone bigger and stronger allows you to do.

This is just a variant of the $5 wrench attack. You could selectively reveal some identities but not others. Thats the nice thing about the bip32 tree structure. You have no way of knowing whether or not a given node is at the top of the tree or not.

Yes and no. The motive for the $5-wrench attack is easily identified by a wide range of different types of people. It's theft/extortion, and that is universally condemned.

But for "thought crime" and "pre-crime", there is a large amount of propaganda and psychological game playing involved. That makes identifying the real motive much more difficult (still theft) for regular and below-average intelligence individuals. And that makes it more dangerous, as a culture of accepting the "science" behind it is easy to promote with "you don't understand our pre-crime statistical techniques, therefore do as I say".
 

What makes you think Andreas makes a living doing what he does?

Well yea by talking his book. Don't know how that would work with trezor.

No, you're assuming he wrote that book too (). To be more on point, I think you could do it, depending on how good you are at public speaking (you're suitably inspired by the topic, so that's one to chalk up in your favour).

But don't misunderstand: unless you've can get access to the same range of platforms that Andreas has (and he gets everyyyyywhere), you'll not be able to emulate what he did. How did Andreas get himself speaking at government committees, tech conferences and fashionable talk shows? It's all about who you know, not what you know.

[Anon136]

Yes and no. The motive for the $5-wrench attack is easily identified by a wide range of different types of people. It's theft/extortion, and that is universally condemned.

What I'm saying is you can "give up your keys" and he will never know whether or not you have given up all of them. That's completely independent of public perception. The public can be strongly of the opinion that everyone ought to be required to give up all of their keys to the state upon request, and even in that environment this defense still works fine because you can always say with complete plausibility that you have given up all of your keys.

No, you're assuming he wrote that book too

I didn't mean his actual book. I meant he holds bitcoin and he makes the bitcoin he holds more valuable by fostering adoption. That is how he "gets paid" for what he does.

It's all about who you know, not what you know.

Yea this is probably right.

[Dabs]

Why are you creating an association between those different data sets? What is the common factor between them that determines the benefit of associating them?

I didn't create the association. It was dictated as requirements by creditors, credit unions, credit corporations and banks. You know, Trans Union or Equifax in North America, ... in the Philippines there is a government controlled corporation called "Credit Information Corporation" or something like that, and by law, all banks must report your info to them.

When you apply for a loan, or just do about anything to do with money or installment plans (not paying in cash in full), you get looked up in this giant database. You know how it is, if you've been late for any payment in the last decade, it's there.

In theory, you could create different identities (with the same name), but you'll get caught when someone looks for duplicates and you won't get the best interest rates. You're normally not allowed to have more than one driver's license (from the same country), or more than one passport (from the same country) or more than one tax identification number / social security number. Yes, special people have "diplomatic" passports in addition to their regular passport, but you can't use that for any purpose other than an official state visit.

Won't give up your keys? "Thought crime" will put a stop to that.

If only there is an actual device that reads minds. People get good at this (thus the magic tricks by mentalists.)

It's all about who you know, not what you know.

This has always been true. Everywhere. I've been to several countries aside from my own. Having rank in the military and government connections has it's fringe benefits. No tickets for the past 20 years and always first in line. (I do not cut in, there's a separate line which no one uses.)

[Carlton Banks]

Dabs, that's a concerning reply.

Your attitude seems to be one of "yeah, there's a set of personal information dictated by the biggest bullies, and I don't care why", or suggesting a more effective (arguably the ultimate) method of detecting "thought crime". Do you really not care about the problems that letting it all wash over you causes for others?

But then again, you're part of the privileged class, and the perks of that lifestyle seem to appeal to you. The fact that you work/ed for the most violent/psychopathic arm of government is not so surprising, given your attitudes.

[Dabs]

The military is not all violent. I work with doctors, engineers, nurses, dentists. We do dental, medical, and other kinds of civil-military operations, to the poorest people of many regions in my country.

We build bridges, construct classrooms for public schools, and paint houses for homeless people.

As for the banks, they only know what I let them know about me, just enough for me to borrow what I need.

I may not agree with it, but that's the world we live in. I can't buy a car without going to a bank or some other financing company.

[Anon136]

The military is not all violent. I work with doctors, engineers, nurses, dentists. We do dental, medical, and other kinds of civil-military operations, to the poorest people of many regions in my country.

As for the banks, they only know what I let them know about me, just enough for me to borrow what I need.

And I'm sure the mafia helps old ladies across the street sometimes too

[Dabs]

I heard a story about an earthquake in Japan, a few years ago. The first people to give aid were the Yakuza.

There's a saying that's popular in the "second amendment world", something like the sheep, the wolf, and the sheep dog. And another one, I've read two versions goes something like "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Or "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Don't really care who said it.

There are real dangers out there: criminals, rebels, insurgents, armed communists, terrorists. Government isn't perfect. But my men (and women) are not loyal to any one person, not even the President. They are loyal to the constitution and to the citizens. I can't say the same thing about our police, but they're still part of the government and we work with them sometimes.

And something about having insurance, because, that's what insurance is for. Fire extinguishers in every room although I don't expect my home to burn.

My attitudes reflect what is real in this world, not what I prefer it to be. To put it into perspective, I have two toddlers and the eldest one just entered what is called "Junior Kindergarten."

To paraphrase Meredith Brooks:

I'm a fighter, I'm a lover
I'm a child, I'm a father
I'm a bitcoin miner, ...

(okay, sorry, that doesn't seem to rhyme.)

[Carlton Banks]

Less concerned than I was.

The Yakuza story is interesting; they behaved no different to other government agencies: cynical and opportunistic (which, incidentally are the same qualities that drive their everyday life).

And I find the "sleeping soundly" thing interesting too. The problem is that the real world isn't so black and white, there are huge contingents of military men who behave exactly the way you characterise the police force as: without any moral compass. And that's a serious problem for the people they're supposed to be protecting. The truth is that the most effective soldiers are on the high end of the psychopathy scale, to be capable of killing multiple times with no remorse. Those kind of people don't care who or why they're fighting, just that they are. And they'll fight anyone, for good, bad or indifferent reasons. It's the killing they enjoy, not the cause, and those people (and the command chain that backs their actions) are highly dangerous.

Now, if employing personal protection actually was an insurance product, maybe we wouldn't be talking about this, as the more unhinged types that bother me wouldn't be incentivised to get a job like that in the first place. This protection racket culture should be changed.

As for the banks, well that's why we're here (whether everyone realises that or not, lol). And I'm hearing more "that's just the way it is", which I understand isn't what Satoshi said. We should change it, because we can. For your kids, if not for you. Likewise, this protection racket culture should be changed too.

[aigeezer]

But my men (and women) are not loyal to any one person

They are not "yours" then, it would seem. It's a start - keep thinking about it - seriously - what follows from that observation?

[marcus_of_augustus]

Sounds like utopia maybe one day we will get there I'd love to use my Trezor for everything too

Yea. You know how history always has funny visions about the future? And in reality it turns out things have progressed a lot except in weirder ways than people expected. Like how we got the iphone instead of the flying car. Its sort of just as amazing if you think about it but VERY few people predicted it when people were envisioning flying cars.

That is what cryptographically secure, open source, intuitively operated and widely adopted identity management will be like. It will be so much bigger than bitcoin. Bitcoin was just devices like these first killer app. The first application that was so blindingly obvious that it was on the margin for first ever reason for creating devices like these. However, the whole rest of the entire world economy yet awaits.

If we (or someone) can manage to foster adoption of this type of product more broadly in the economy, it really could really be a next level development for the species of man.

... imagine if we got chipped by the government that would perform every 'identity' related TX in our lives instead of having the choice of which 'Trezor' we could carry around and use.

[Dabs]

The truth is that the most effective soldiers are on the high end of the psychopathy scale, to be capable of killing multiple times with no remorse. Those kind of people don't care who or why they're fighting, just that they are. And they'll fight anyone, for good, bad or indifferent reasons. It's the killing they enjoy, not the cause, and those people (and the command chain that backs their actions) are highly dangerous.

Now, if employing personal protection actually was an insurance product, maybe we wouldn't be talking about this, as the more unhinged types that bother me wouldn't be incentivised to get a job like that in the first place. This protection racket culture should be changed.

As for the banks, well that's why we're here (whether everyone realises that or not, lol). And I'm hearing more "that's just the way it is", which I understand isn't what Satoshi said. We should change it, because we can. For your kids, if not for you. Likewise, this protection racket culture should be changed too.

It's a good thing then that at the very top is a civilian (the President). What you say is indeed unfortunately true. Hopefully, these effective soldiers have leaders who have at least a minimum moral compass. There are a few good men who have both qualities, but the tendency is for these who survive their tours of duty to come out not adjusting to regular civilian life, or have PTSD. The smarter and stronger (willpower) ones can cope, but not all are like that.

I'm not in the protection racket for others. I'm in it for myself. I'm my own insurance product. If there is a clear and present danger to me or my family, I would not hesitate to use whatever means necessary in order to protect them. Some random stranger insulting me from the other side of the road tends to get ignored (and hopefully he finds someone else to bother.)

Banks, yes, I'm here for that too. I know what is, and what could be. But depending on what country or regime you are in, these things take time (which is another one of those things that just are the way they are.) For my immediate family, I tell them what is. Then I tell them what could be. And I advice them on how to combine what they want to be public, and what they want to keep private, and what are the disadvantages or advantages for any particular action, and if some merit ... if something is really free, or you become the product.

I watched a TED talk that was pretty recent, (dated a year or two ago) where the topic was we humans are the only species on this planet that has a "collective memory", where we can pass on some or most of what we learn in our life to the next generation; thus all the industrial and technological advancements we have seen these past hundred years. I'll teach (or try to) my offspring how to take care of their privacy.

I'd love to live in utopia. I'd like a world that isn't in fear (or in acceptance) of becoming 1984 "Orwellian". Maybe I'm not in the right job for that (I'm not full time in the military by the way, I'm in the reserve force, I'm a network engineer / IT manager for most of the week.) But where ever I am, I try to do a little part of what I believe is towards that goal. So while I may carry a badge and a gun, I put nails in wood to make chairs for classrooms. And we do the all-popular tree planting thing once every few years.

The fastest way is to rise to the top and enter politics and change the system when I win the election, but that's also not reality or close to it.

But my men (and women) are not loyal to any one person

They are not "yours" then, it would seem. It's a start - keep thinking about it - seriously - what follows from that observation?

Yes, you are correct. By "mine", I meant the individuals who are under my command in my unit. They usually follow orders that they understand or can make sense of, but if I instruct any of them to jump without reason (or to go kill this other person who is not obviously a bad guy) they might not do it. But since I work with professionals that are not combat oriented, they have other things to think about.


But we're going a little off-topic here. There have been several hardware wallets, I'm still undecided if I want to spend money on any of them. They're all beyond the point of sending out "review" units. (In the mining section, I got a few.)

[Anon136]

condemnation

apologetics

A separate thread should be made for this conversation. We are all guilty of going a little off topic but its getting out of hand

[Dabs]

condemnation

apologetics

A separate thread should be made for this conversation. We are all guilty of going a little off topic but its getting out of hand

Yes, sorry about that. I know it was not a direct personal "attack" but an observation of certain groups in general or the stereotype understandably. I could say something about bad apples or rotten ones, or of bushels, barrels, baskets or bins. I grew up learning that officers and gentlemen were respected and every time soldiers go home they get salutes and applause from the civilians, so I wanted to be one.

I was born in a comfortable family life, no one else in my demographic or socio-economic class has even thought of joining the military. The training was humbling. (I was often the target of the instructors, "who's dis dumb rich kid wants to work for minimum government wage and die at the front lines? die maggot die!") ... yep, they were all psychotic alright.


Trezor: would you suggest a white one or a black one? I'm from the dark side, so black looks cool to me.

[jimlite]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

[Anon136]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

I have found that my trezor is finicky about being utilized by multiple services. For example it will not work with electrum if I have mytrezor.com open. Your problem may be similar to this.

[jimlite]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

I have found that my trezor is finicky about being utilized by multiple services. For example it will not work with electrum if I have mytrezor.com open. Your problem may be similar to this.

No I have tried them one at a time and on two different computers with nothing running. This is a known problem since June and Multibit and Trezor are both blaming each other and nobody is f@cking fixing it. Trezor should have never released a firmware upgrade without TESTING that it works on Multibit HD (and electrum). If it wasn't broke before, why break it and then leave the firmware. They should at least post a safe firmware downgrade to get it working in the meantime until the fix it. I really wonder what kind of engineers/devs they have, seems like a bunch of clowns, and that is not funny for devices being sold for $99 as the safest way to store your bitcoin. Yeah so safe you can't even get it yourself, lol.

[xbach]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

I have found that my trezor is finicky about being utilized by multiple services. For example it will not work with electrum if I have mytrezor.com open. Your problem may be similar to this.

No I have tried them one at a time and on two different computers with nothing running. This is a known problem since June and Multibit and Trezor are both blaming each other and nobody is f@cking fixing it. Trezor should have never released a firmware upgrade without TESTING that it works on Multibit HD (and electrum). If it wasn't broke before, why break it and then leave the firmware. They should at least post a safe firmware downgrade to get it working in the meantime until the fix it. I really wonder what kind of engineers/devs they have, seems like a bunch of clowns, and that is not funny for devices being sold for $99 as the safest way to store your bitcoin. Yeah so safe you can't even get it yourself, lol.

Would be nice if you could at least be respectful to the devs, when complaining about bugs.

As you mentioned, it was an issue since 1.3.6. Not ours to fix, so it was not fixed with 1.4.0 either. Multibit actually has the patch ready, so we are all just waiting for its release.

EDIT: Please check out Multibit's comment on this: https://multibit.org/blog/2016/06/27/trezor-version-1.3.6.html

About testing, we test the FW against the apps we develop and can fix.

condemnation

apologetics

A separate thread should be made for this conversation. We are all guilty of going a little off topic but its getting out of hand

Yes, sorry about that. I know it was not a direct personal "attack" but an observation of certain groups in general or the stereotype understandably. I could say something about bad apples or rotten ones, or of bushels, barrels, baskets or bins. I grew up learning that officers and gentlemen were respected and every time soldiers go home they get salutes and applause from the civilians, so I wanted to be one.

I was born in a comfortable family life, no one else in my demographic or socio-economic class has even thought of joining the military. The training was humbling. (I was often the target of the instructors, "who's dis dumb rich kid wants to work for minimum government wage and die at the front lines? die maggot die!") ... yep, they were all psychotic alright.


Trezor: would you suggest a white one or a black one? I'm from the dark side, so black looks cool to me.

Great and interesting talk! Feel free to join the new Telegram chat room on Trezor https://telegram.me/trezortalk

Personally, I like white more, but I can see why black looks cool

[BitcoinNewsMagazine]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

Latest Electrum 2.6.4 working fine with Trezor 1.4.0 here. You might want to uninstall the bridge and try Chrome with the Trezor extension instead.

[jimlite]

I have not been able to get my Trezor recognized by electrum or Multibit HD in Windows 10. I have updated firmware and trezor bridge. Strangly enough mytrezor.com works fine, but neither electrum or Multibit recognize the trezor at all, though I do hear the windows usb noise when I plug it in. Can anyone tell me how to get multibit hd to recognize it again, I really don't care about electrum.
Thanks

Latest Electrum 2.6.4 working fine with Trezor 1.4.0 here. You might want to uninstall the bridge and try Chrome with the Trezor extension instead.

Yes I can get Chrome and trezor working at mytrezor.com. But neither electrum or multibit hd will recognize my trezor, and I only use multibit hd. So need a fix, 3 months is a long time since this was known problem.