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[Mig-23]

how many total coin ?

[1714247351]

1714247351

[1714247351]

1714247351

[1714247351]

1714247351

[1714247351]

1714247351

[xyz]

how many total coin ?

block explorer shows about 10 % of all Qora:
http://qora.co.in:9090/index/blockexplorer.html?addr=QXNz5kBknsgNYtRKit4jCDNVm7YYoXLZdB

[x13]

I have voted with "Not sure yet". i miss some information. is it really not possible to clone Qora before participating on the Azure platform?

Important Announcement: Poll created for Qora's Potential Involvement in Microsoft Azure BaaS Program

Please be advised that a poll has been created by Skerberus in regard to Qora's involvement in Microsoft's Azure Blockchain As a Service Program (BaaS).  This will most likely affect the value of your investment, so we'd highly encourage the whole community to participate!  The outcome of this poll will decide whether we will apply to join the program or not.

Azure Poll (You can access the decentralized voting system inside your Qora client by going to the Voting tab): http://qora.co.in:9090/index/blockexplorer.html?poll=%20do%20you%20want%20qora%20to%20join%20microsoft%20azure%20baas%3F

In a nutshell, MS Azure BaaS platform is the cloud computing/deployment platform designed specifically for blockchain-as-a-service (BaaS) purpose. By deploying the blockchain on Azure, it would be easier for potential developers and companies to interact and experiment with the blockchain, and create custom apps on top of the platform using existing MS technologies.
 
PROs:

1. By joining the program, we will be able to reach institutions and enterprises (banks, accounting firms.. etc) who otherwise will not be interested in learning and working with Qora.  In other words, we will be able to reach audience outside of current Crypto community.

2. Microsoft will soon offer "Azure Blockchain Marketplace" with rigorous certification process (security vetting conducted by Microsoft). This is the kind of recognition we need.

3. Azure has tools that'll make building/deploying new Blockchain technologies much easier: check out https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/devtest-lab/

4. Developers with no previous exposure to Crytocurrency and Blockchain Technologies will be able to interact/experiment with Qora utilizing existing Microsoft Technologies.

5. Big-name coins like Ethereum are already on it.

CONs:

1. Because of copyright and patent agreements that must be signed as part of the application process, NO Clones of qora or any derivative works based on Qora can be made.  For those of you who wish to be part of CIYAM's new Blockchain, you will be disppointed.  

2. A licensing contract that involves patent and distribution rights has to be signed before being accepted into the program. 

3. The contract cannot be annulled once joined.  


---------------------------------------------------

The Poll will run for 2 weeks and close on April 15th.  Feel free to add to my list of Pros and Cons as you see fit. Happy Voting!  

[CIYAM]

I have voted with "Not sure yet". i miss some information. is it really not possible to clone Qora before participating on the Azure platform?

Personally I would not risk cloning software that then ends up under the control of Microsoft (who have had a long track record of trying to put down open source projects and trying to hinder their progress as they know it spells the end of their closed source software model).

If Qora goes down this path I do hope that they pay so that the intellectual property remains under the MIT license - but if they elect not to then CIYAM won't be involved with any clone of it (and for sure Ethereum would have paid to keep their IP open).

[MadCow]

I have voted with "Not sure yet". i miss some information. is it really not possible to clone Qora before participating on the Azure platform?

Personally I would not risk cloning software that then ends up under the control of Microsoft (who have had a long track record of trying to put down open source projects and trying to hinder their progress as they know it spells the end of their closed source software model).

If Qora goes down this path I do hope that they pay so that the intellectual property remains under the MIT license - but if they elect not to then CIYAM won't be involved with any clone of it (and for sure Ethereum would have paid to keep their IP open).

I also think Azure is too risky, and looks like a passing fad. Cost benefit isn't worth it IMO. Qora should stay independent as long as possible.

[jwinterm]

...

1. Because of copyright and patent agreements that must be signed as part of the application process, NO Clones of qora or any derivative works based on Qora can be made.  For those of you who wish to be part of CIYAM's new Blockchain, you will be disppointed.  

2. A licensing contract that involves patent and distribution rights has to be signed before being accepted into the program. 

3. The contract cannot be annulled once joined.  

...

Can you publish the documents that need to be signed in terms of copyright and patent agreements, or is there an NDA or something, because point #1 seems untenable in my IANAL opinion. As the license stands, MIT, anyone is free to fork and modify the code. In order to change the license, I believe you would need signed agreement from all contributors to the current codebase, and that would apply only to future versions, not already MIT released code.

[CIYAM]

Regardless of the actual legality of the license agreement Microsoft are very fond of fighting law suits (even when they are likely to lose them) so I won't be permitting CIYAM to be involved with any situation that might end up in a potential law suit with Microsoft.

Imagine if every bug fix (published in a future version) could not be applied to a clone for fear of a lawsuit with Microsoft for merging the commit (you just aren't going to risk the trouble IMO).

[jwinterm]

Regardless of the actual legality of the license agreement Microsoft are very fond of fighting law suits (even when they are likely to lose them) so I won't be permitting CIYAM to be involved with any situation that might end up in a potential law suit with Microsoft.

Imagine if every bug fix (published in a future version) could not be applied to a clone for fear of a lawsuit with Microsoft for merging the commit (you just aren't going to risk the trouble IMO).

Read both answers here:
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/173193/open-source-library-can-the-project-owner-change-the-license-to-be-more-restric

There is no way MS could claim any dominion over code that has already been distributed with an MIT license, even if all contributors to Qora agreed to change the license at the time of signing on to Azure service. Relevant quotes:

Since the license covers distribution the terms you agreed to when they distributed it to you still apply, they can't suddenly revoke an MIT library that has been in use for years.

However, code previously licensed under a permissive license, gives others the right to distribute that code to anyone they wish to. So, old code, once distributed under a permissive license, can be re-distributed under that same license. In theory that means the old code remains available to everyone as Open Source software, provided someone continues to distribute it.

Take it with a grain of salt, it is stackoverflow legal advice after all, but the MIT license is pretty short and clear in its intentions.

[CIYAM]

There is no way MS could claim any dominion over code that has already been distributed with an MIT license, even if all contributors to Qora agreed to change the license at the time of signing on to Azure service.

Whilst I don't doubt that Microsoft would lose any lawsuit over a clone prior to the change of license that certainly doesn't mean that they wouldn't try it and my point was the bug fixes made after the change of license could not be applied to the clones (unless written in a different manner which is another potential lawsuit).

Microsoft (and other such companies) spend many millions per year on lawyers and are always in court and quite simply CIYAM does not have the funds to be involved in any lawsuit with the likes of them.

Personally I would hope that the Qora team come up with the funds to retain ownership of the IP if they decide to go down this path.

[CIYAM]

I would hope that if Qora decides to go down the path of giving up its rights to Microsoft that they first remove AT from the software as I will never agree for Microsoft to have any IP rights to AT (which was invented by myself and coded entirely by CIYAM Developers).

So to be clear - there will be no assistance for the AT code in Qora from the CIYAM Developers if any such change of software license takes place.

[eli_lyd1]

I would hope that if Qora decides to go down the path of giving up its rights to Microsoft that they first remove AT from the software as I will never agree for Microsoft to have any IP rights of AT (which was invented by myself and coded entirely by CIYAM Developers).

So to be clear - there will be no assistance for the AT code in Qora from the CIYAM Developers once any such change of software license has occurred.

Don't be worry, qora won't join MIcrosoft.

[hashtag101]

I would hope that if Qora decides to go down the path of giving up its rights to Microsoft that they first remove AT from the software as I will never agree for Microsoft to have any IP rights to AT (which was invented by myself and coded entirely by CIYAM Developers).

So to be clear - there will be no assistance for the AT code in Qora from the CIYAM Developers if any such change of software license takes place.

Qora wouldn't be giving up its rights to Microsoft I don't believe.

I've been wrong before, why would you say this?

[CIYAM]

Qora wouldn't be giving up its rights to Microsoft I don't believe.

I've been wrong before, why would you say this?

If they join Azure BAAS without paying then indeed they would be giving up the IP rights (that is in the legal contract for using the service for free).

From what I gather if you pay for said service then you can retain the IP rights (that would of course need to be verified) so if going down this path at all then I hope that it is going to be funded.

[sparta_cuss]

Suppose some group of developers came along and forked Qora. Then they could make a deal to join Azure and sign away their rights to that specific codebase from that point forward only, and there isn't anything that the current devs or coin holders could do about it, right?

But, if this happens, no matter what that license agreement with Azure says, there is no way that MS could force the current and evolving Qora team and consultants/contributors, including CIYAM, to do anything at all, right?

[CIYAM]

Suppose some group of developers came along and forked Qora. Then they could make a deal to join Azure and sign away their rights to that specific codebase from that point forward only, and there isn't anything that the current devs or coin holders could do about it, right?

Except that Microsoft are not allowing clones to use it - so Qora would be ineligible if it were cloned prior to signing up (at least that's how I interpreted the rules).

But, if this happens, no matter what that license agreement with Azure says, there is no way that MS could force the current and evolving Qora team and consultants/contributors, including CIYAM, to do anything at all, right?

I have zero interest in having to deal with any legal issue with Microsoft (even if I would win any lawsuit) so put simply no further AT development would happen for Qora would this transpire (from the CIYAM Developers).

Note that this will likely affect the work on the new ACCT code as well (I will have to discuss this with @vbcs but will be recommending that he cease work until this is sorted out).

[sparta_cuss]

I have zero interest in having to deal with any legal issue with Microsoft (even if I would win any lawsuit) so put simply no further AT development would happen for Qora would this transpire (from the CIYAM Developers).
...

I am with you there. As I have said earlier, Microsoft is the old economy, and these projects are trying to reimagine everything. Partnering with MS would be a step backward.

I followed you over here from Nxt and even bought into the NxtAT asset, so I hope you can get things sorted out and can continue on with Qora.

[jwinterm]

Qora wouldn't be giving up its rights to Microsoft I don't believe.

I've been wrong before, why would you say this?

If they join Azure BAAS without paying then indeed they would be giving up the IP rights (that is in the legal contract for using the service for free).

From what I gather if you pay for said service then you can retain the IP rights (that would of course need to be verified) so if going down this path at all then I hope that it is going to be funded.

Where is the legal contract? Which IP rights are being given up? 

[CIYAM]

Where is the legal contract? Which IP rights are being given up? 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1358722.msg14417641#msg14417641

(there are some links in that post)

[jwinterm]

Where is the legal contract? Which IP rights are being given up? 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1358722.msg14417641#msg14417641

(there are some links in that post)

Those links don't have the agreement. You can obtain a copy of the agreement here:
http://windowsazure.github.io/docs/Contribution%20License%20Agreement.pdf

I talked to fluffypony about it (because Monero was recently added to Azure, so he just went through the process). Here is what he had to say:

[08:35:48] <jwinterm> fluffypony: what did you have to sign for MS azure integration?
[08:38:26] <jwinterm> It basically consisted of signing a Contributor License Agreement, submitting a PR to the Azure templates Github repo, and sending them a write-up.
[08:39:05] <jwinterm> CLA agreement publicly available?
[08:42:20] <fluffypony> jwinterm: yes, I think
[08:42:27] <fluffypony> https://cla.azure.com has it, I think
[08:42:38] <grubles> azure integration?
[08:43:06] <fluffypony> grubles: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/azure-blockchain-update-7/
[08:43:14] <othe> jwinterm on azure? pump pump
[08:43:27] <jwinterm> just curious
[08:43:35] <jwinterm> ciyam is on the qora thread talking about MS getting IP rights
[08:43:48] <grubles> fluffypony: oh nice!
[08:43:51] <jwinterm> about how if qora gets on ms azure then ms will own all IP related to qora
[08:44:20] <fluffypony> the license only covers the code you submit to the Azure Github repo
[08:44:34] <fluffypony> for obvious reasons you have to sign that before they'll merge it
[08:44:48] <fluffypony> so it's just the install script and a README, in our case
[08:45:02] <fluffypony> but literally anyone can submit the PR and sign the CLA
[08:45:08] <fluffypony> I can go and put Qora on there and he can't stop me
[08:45:14] <othe> yeah one person did that for 5 coins...
[08:45:26] <jwinterm> anyway, thanks for explanation
[08:46:08] <grubles> is bitcoin on azure?
[08:46:16] <lsd25> Heyyyyyy
[08:46:20] <grubles> i can't find any info
[08:46:21] <jwinterm> I don't think so, maybe bitpay, grubles
[08:46:34] <moneromooo> That site seems to want my github password before it lets me see anything... Fishy.
[08:46:46] <fluffypony> http://windowsazure.github.io/docs/Contribution%20License%20Agreement.pdf
[08:46:47] <fluffypony> foudn it
[08:46:47] <othe> no but u can just make your own template for that, its basically just a shell script that runs on the first start
[08:46:48] <fluffypony> *found
[08:47:11] <fluffypony> it only covers the contribution you make to their Github repo
[08:47:25] <grubles> othe: similar to user data for AWS?

Relevant portion of conversation bolded. So, the only code that you are giving over to MS is the install script that will go on their github repo. I hope this clears up any confusion about whether MS would have any claim on any Qora copyrights or other IP.

[CIYAM]

I'm afraid that some IRC from a "fluffypony" isn't acceptable as "proof" to myself (please hire an actual lawyer if you want to convince me).

We'll see what happens in regards to the poll but if Qora goes Azure then AT development (from CIYAM) will be ceased.