Health and Religion

[TicTacTic]

Religion calls for treatment to address prayer to God. This is nonsense! Let it treated those who calls for it. Who helped prayer? The priests themselves are treated in hospitals and is very expensive.

[BADecker]

Why do you think that I am preaching? Are you not able to understand science, even a little? Don't you realize that all religion revolves around true science? Science is logic, and it comes from observation of what exists. People are healthier when they live the religious life they were designed for. Wake up and look at science. It shows that people are religion-minded creatures.

Because the definition of "Preach" is: "publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief)".
Remove any context of religion and you could have a decent conversation. But you seem to only be able to discuss your skewed ideas which have been twisted by a religious aspect to become completely irrelevant.

Number 6 in the definition of religion at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t:

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Remove the context of religion, and the conversation would be over almost before it started. If it could exist for a short time without religion, it would be boring and meaningless.

[anavuajna]

Religious people can be healthier due to the fact that often the religion forbids alcohol. If they comply, their brain is not destroyed as much as the brain is destroyed people who consume alcohol

[CoinCube]

Also, if there ever is a greater-than-human A.I. it will likely detest religion thoroughly, because to do so is quite logical:  
  
https://youtu.be/VrCTGfeJvxM  

I got distracted by a debate and did not reply to this post of yours from a while back as I had intended.

I enjoyed the video it was clever. However, I entirely disagree with its conclusions. I would argue that the moral dimension the moral challenge is the only one of the many we face currently that will scale in difficulty matching the growth in intellect that occurs following a technological singularity.

You might enjoy the following videos posted by Wilikon on transhumanism. I found them interesting.

Part 1
http://youtu.be/mwh4ShZA5Tg

Part 2
http://youtu.be/pBTCYD2Wax0


My comments on them are below.

Interesting videos I watched them both. Creator of the video is worried about transhumanism which is reasonable and probably why he added the disturbing imagery pictures of hell, video of a man cutting up a monkey brain, the images of the poor cat and monkey who got their brains operated on while they were alive etc.

Essentially the videos lay out the reasons homo sapiens are in danger of extinction caused by our own achievements. Overall it is a solid presentation. It makes a strong case that our fate whatever its outcome is entirely beyond our abilities to alter. Further progress is inevitable. Our very essence will relentlessly push us farther down our current path.

The best quote comes at the end of the second video.

We may be on the threshold of acquiring godlike capacities... we may reach towards a kind of omniscience we may reach towards a kind of omnipotence... but technology is never going to be able to transform us into divinely loving merciful or compassionate beings. That part the moral dimension... remains a problem remains a choice and in that sense (transhumanism) does not change human history

Transhumanism as described would radically change everything we know, and yet on a fundamental level it would change nothing.

[CoinCube]

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.

1.   Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2.   The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3.   The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.

A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.

In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.

In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan

There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbes was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review for common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbes had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.

Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom a lesson many today have forgotten.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington

In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations and yet is entirely unsustainable in its current form.

"our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it." - A.W. Tozer

The perishing of Western civilization, however, does not mean fragmentation and collapse. Indeed in this instance the opposite appears to be true and collapse looks set to drive us via economic fundamentals and debt into a single world government paradigm for reasons discussed at length elsewhere.

The evolution of the social contract is a progressive climb to higher potential energy systems with increased degrees of freedom. The state of nature begat tribalism. Tribalism grew into despotism. Despotism advanced into monarchy. Monarchies were replaced by republics. It is likely that in the near future republics will be consumed by world government, and perhaps someday world government will evolve into decentralized government.

Each iteration has a common theme for each advance increases the number of individuals able to engage in cooperative activity while lowering the number of individuals able to defect. Each iteration increases the sustainable degrees of freedom the system can support. Moral capital is the foundation that allows this progress to occur. For this reason ethical monotheism is the single greatest contributor to human progress from any source since human culture emerged from the stone ages.

"Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally." - Dennis Prager

The utopia of limited to no government would only be possible for a population constantly striving at all times to be moral. Such a utopia would require all individuals to always act cooperatively, honesty, and transparently. We lack the required moral fiber for anything like this to work at our current juncture in history.

See: Freedom and God for more.

[BADecker]

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.

1.   Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2.   The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3.   The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.

A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.

In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.

In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan

There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbs was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review of common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbs had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.

Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom. A lesson many today have forgotten.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington

In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations is in decline as it is entirely unsustainable in its current form.

"our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it. - A.W. Tozer

The perishing of Western civilization, however, does not mean fragmentation and collapse. Indeed in this instance the opposite appears to be true and collapse looks set to drive us via economic fundamentals and debt into a single world government paradigm for reasons discussed at length elsewhere

The evolution of the social contract is a progressive climb to higher potential energy systems with increased degrees of freedom. The state of nature begat tribalism. Tribalism grew into despotism. Despotism advanced into monarchy. Monarchies were replaced by republics. It is likely that in the near future republics will be consumed by world government, and perhaps someday world government will someday evolve into decentralized government.

Each iteration has a common theme for each advance increases the number of individuals able to engage in cooperative activity while lowering the number of individuals able to defect. Each iteration increases the sustainable degrees of freedom the system can support. Moral capital is the foundation that allows this progress to occur. For this reason that ethical monotheism is the single greatest contributor to human progress from any source since human culture emerged from the stone ages.

Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally. - Dennis Prager

The utopia of limited to no government, would only be possible for a population constantly striving at all times to be moral. Such a utopia would require all individuals to always act cooperatively, honesty, and transparently. We lack the required moral fiber for anything like this to work at our current juncture in history.

You are soooo extremely right in this stuff. The only place that may not be entirely accurate, is that archeology is finding that the standard understanding of the hunter gatherer prehistory times never existed that we know of.

Graham Hancock is a sensationalist out to sell books. But more and more archeologists are coming to understand that there was great (if different) technology around back at the times that the hunter gatherers supposedly lived, just like Hancock is proclaiming. Hunter gatherers didn't exist in the way that standard archeology suggests.

[achow102]

I do not believe that can be the relationship between religion and health. It happens so that sick children are born in a family of believers. And atheists live up to 100 years. It all depends on genetics

[MiSKLaCH]

I do not believe that can be the relationship between religion and health. It happens so that sick children are born in a family of believers. And atheists live up to 100 years. It all depends on genetics

BADecker's theory: if one heals from illness it's because he prayed god which healed him, if another gets seriously ill is because he hasn't prayed god.

Don't try to make this bigot use his brain, he has replaced it with a collection of fairy tales.
He sees jesus everywhere...

[Oppolee]

I do not believe that can be the relationship between religion and health. It happens so that sick children are born in a family of believers. And atheists live up to 100 years. It all depends on genetics

I agree genetics is very important, but still a lot depends on the timing of seeking medical attention and quality of care. If the person does not go to the doctor, and trying to be treated with prayers, then the chances of recovery it decreases.

[stats]

Why do you think that I am preaching? Are you not able to understand science, even a little? Don't you realize that all religion revolves around true science? Science is logic, and it comes from observation of what exists. People are healthier when they live the religious life they were designed for. Wake up and look at science. It shows that people are religion-minded creatures.

Because the definition of "Preach" is: "publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief)".
Remove any context of religion and you could have a decent conversation. But you seem to only be able to discuss your skewed ideas which have been twisted by a religious aspect to become completely irrelevant.

Number 6 in the definition of religion at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t:

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Remove the context of religion, and the conversation would be over almost before it started. If it could exist for a short time without religion, it would be boring and meaningless.

But all you do is discuss a point of view with religion.... Therefore you are preaching. You have just said to remove the context of religion it would be almost over before it started..... how do you know? all you do is talk a fictional character. I have many Atheist friends and we converse quite well. It is only mindless bigots like yourself who strive to "Preach" your beliefs.

But you amuse me..... you twist and turn different conversations around so they fit "your ideals". Even when the obvious is pointed out to you, you twist and turn. Your GOD says you are stupid and you continue trying to preach your ideals as if you are not stupid. I DO NOT believe you to be stupid, but I like to highlight that you worship someone who does. That in my opinion is quite funny. I enjoy laughing at your deluded sense of reality. 

[danherbias07]

Atheism is poison? Don't you mean Poison are atheists?

dont you religious people know nothing except hate?!  

This is one of the problem. A person become so religious and in some point of his life he will start to hate those who do bad things. But that is not the purpose of the Bible. It is to love God and to love your neighbor. I think they havent finished understanding the true meaning of it.

[Tyrantt]

Atheism is poison? Don't you mean Poison are atheists?

dont you religious people know nothing except hate?!  

This is one of the problem. A person become so religious and in some point of his life he will start to hate those who do bad things. But that is not the purpose of the Bible. It is to love God and to love your neighbor. I think they havent finished understanding the true meaning of it.

the problem is that the bible cannot be lived by fully in todays modern world and by selecting a few that can apply to todays world is denying the true word of bible. Do not believe in anything, do not be scared of hell think for yourself and live like a moral being and as a product of million years of evolution that you are.

[BADecker]

Atheism is poison? Don't you mean Poison are atheists?

dont you religious people know nothing except hate?!  

This is one of the problem. A person become so religious and in some point of his life he will start to hate those who do bad things. But that is not the purpose of the Bible. It is to love God and to love your neighbor. I think they havent finished understanding the true meaning of it.

the problem is that the bible cannot be lived by fully in todays modern world and by selecting a few that can apply to todays world is denying the true word of bible. Do not believe in anything, do not be scared of hell think for yourself and live like a moral being and as a product of million years of evolution that you are.

Jesus died a terrible death on the cross to get rid of the punishment for things done against the law. Hate sin, which is things done against the law.

There wasn't any evolution. Evolution is mathematically impossible. Research it. The first point in living a moral life is understanding that God exists.

[markj113]

The first point in living a moral life is understanding that God exists.

ISIS believe that God exists, are they living a moral life.

Or does this just apply to your God as you obviously have chosen the one and only true God from the thousands that have existed through mankinds history.

Wouldnt it be great if science invented a time machine then proceeded to systemically disprove every major religion that plagues this world.

[BADecker]

The first point in living a moral life is understanding that God exists.

ISIS believe that God exists, are they living a moral life.

Or does this just apply to your God as you obviously have chosen the one and only true God from the thousands that have existed through mankinds history.

Wouldnt it be great if science invented a time machine then proceeded to systemically disprove every major religion that plagues this world.

You are worse than ISIS. At least they acknowledge God, even though they have many mistakes about Him and what He wants. If you happen to catch up to ISIS, perhaps you can do it right.

[CoinCube]

...
Don't try to make this bigot use his brain, he has replaced it with a collection of fairy tales.
...

I see that your profile picture states you hate everyone MiSKLaCH.
Since this is a thread about Health and Religion this next post is for you.

Why Hate Is Ruining Your Health
http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/ways-anger-ruining-your-health/

1. An angry outburst puts your heart at great risk. Most physically damaging is anger's effect on your cardiac health. “In the two hours after an angry outburst, the chance of having a heart attack doubles,” says Chris Aiken, MD, an instructor in clinical psychiatry at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine and director of the Mood Treatment Center in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

“Repressed anger — where you express it indirectly or go to great lengths to control it, is associated with heart disease,” says Dr. Aiken. In fact, one study found that people with anger proneness as a personality trait were at twice the risk of coronary disease than their less angry peers.

2. Anger ups your stroke risk. If you’re prone to lashing out, beware. One study found there was a three times higher risk of having a stroke from a blood clot to the brain or bleeding within the brain during the two hours after an angry outburst. For people with an aneurysm in one of the brain’s arteries, there was a six times higher risk of rupturing this aneurysm following an angry outburst.

Some good news: You can learn to control those angry explosions. “To move into positive coping, you need to first identify what your triggers, and then figure out how to change your response,” says Mary Fristad, PhD, a professor of psychiatry and psychology at the Ohio State University. Instead of losing your temper, “Do some deep breathing. Use assertive communication skills. You might even need to change your environment by getting up and walking away,” says Dr. Fristad.

3. It weakens your immune system. If you're mad all the time, you just might find yourself feeling sick more often. In one study, Harvard University scientists found that in healthy people, simply recalling an angry experience from their past caused a six-hour dip in levels of the antibody immunoglobulin A, the cells’ first line of defense against infection.

If you're someone who's habitually angry, protect your immune system by turning to a few effective coping strategies. “Assertive communication, effective problem solving, using humor, or restructuring your thoughts to get away from that black-and-white, all-or-nothing thinking — those are all good ways to cope,” says Fristad. “But you've got to start by calming down.”

4. Anger problems can make your anxiety worse. If you’re a worrier, it’s important to note that anxiety and anger can go hand-in-hand. In a 2012 study published in the journal Cognitive Behavior Therapy, researchers found that anger can exacerbate symptoms of generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), a condition characterized by an excessive and uncontrollable worry that interferes with a person’s daily life. Not only were higher levels of anger found in people with GAD, but hostility — along with internalized, unexpressed anger in particular — contributed greatly to the severity of GAD symptoms.

5. Anger is also linked to depression. Numerous studies have linked depression with aggression and angry outbursts, especially in men. “In depression, passive anger — where you ruminate about it but never take action — is common,” says Aiken. His No. 1 piece of advice for someone struggling with depression mixed with anger is to get busy and stop thinking so much.

“Any activity which fully absorbs you is a good cure for anger, such as golf, needlepoint, biking,” he says. “These tend to fill our minds completely and pull our focus toward the present moment, and there's just no room left for anger to stir when you've got that going.”

6. Hostility can hurt your lungs. Not a smoker? You still could be hurting your lungs if you're a perpetually angry, hostile person. A group of Harvard University scientists studied 670 men over eight years using a hostility scale scoring method to measure anger levels and assessed any changes in the men's lung function. The men with the highest hostility ratings had significantly worse lung capacity, which increased their risk of respiratory problems. The researchers theorized that an uptick in stress hormones, which are associated with feelings of anger, creates inflammation in the airways.

Here is how the Jewsish tradition recommends one overcome hate and anger.
http://www.jewishmag.com/73mag/anger/anger.htm

However, if you prefer a less theistic approach the Buddhist tradition below is another option.
http://www.lionsroar.com/loosening-the-knots-of-anger/

[Alfa123]

the relationship between religion and health are intertwined. why if you have a religion of the heart will feel calm and peaceful. because, your soul closer to the Almighty GOD. this is causing yourself to be healthy both physically and mentally thank you

To solve the problem of religious disputes, I suggest let the atheists are treated in medical institutions, and the believers may be treated with prayers. And we will see who is right.

[BADecker]

the relationship between religion and health are intertwined. why if you have a religion of the heart will feel calm and peaceful. because, your soul closer to the Almighty GOD. this is causing yourself to be healthy both physically and mentally thank you

To solve the problem of religious disputes, I suggest let the atheists are treated in medical institutions, and the believers may be treated with prayers. And we will see who is right.

This is a good idea. It's about time believers place their trust in God Who can heal them, rather than in the medical which is killing many times more than guns do, every year. If the, above, strategy was adhered to, we soon wouldn't have any more atheists.

[MiSKLaCH]

To solve the problem of religious disputes, I suggest let the atheists are treated in medical institutions, and the believers may be treated with prayers. And we will see who is right.

This is a good idea. It's about time believers place their trust in God Who can heal them, rather than in the medical which is killing many times more than guns do, every year. If the, above, strategy was adhered to, we soon wouldn't have any more atheists.

I dare you, slaphead! STOP taking ANY meds from now on and just pray your god.
Try not to be the hypocrite bigot I know you are and DON'T CHEAT! DON'T TAKE ANY MEDICATIONS AT ALL!

Let's see if you make it to the end of next year... 

[sergeyzol]

To solve the problem of religious disputes, I suggest let the atheists are treated in medical institutions, and the believers may be treated with prayers. And we will see who is right.

This is a good idea. It's about time believers place their trust in God Who can heal them, rather than in the medical which is killing many times more than guns do, every year. If the, above, strategy was adhered to, we soon wouldn't have any more atheists.

I dare you, slaphead! STOP taking ANY meds from now on and just pray your god.
Try not to be the hypocrite bigot I know you are and DON'T CHEAT! DON'T TAKE ANY MEDICATIONS AT ALL!

Let's see if you make it to the end of next year... 

I am sure that such believers dispute for 10 years will not do. Whatever they say,but according to the doctors they run no less than atheists. Only in society tell their stories. It's all up to the Church to receive donations.