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June 05, 2016, 09:19:59 PM |
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perhaps this race to the bottom is why we have 10 tril (and growing) in negative yield bonds in the world right now, like a gigantic black hole sucking everything in.
Pretty much, but that's a discussion for another place.
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philipma1957
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June 05, 2016, 09:27:12 PM |
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in theory, yes, but you may not want to max out the PSU. Bad PSU or damaged PSU or degraded PSU can cause damages to S7 or S9. Saving can be smaller than what you may lose if something goes wrong. we will upload the Kill-A-Watt photo tonight or in the morning. and Pool wise, it does hash in Kano.is pool. I'll try to take the screenshot of that in the late morning. Can someone opine whether two S9 would be able to run on one 2880w PSU? Thanks
It should, total DC consumption would be 2750 watts which is less than DC rating of IBM PSU. If I am off, I would like to know also since my S9 is going to share the PSU with another S7. Good for it if it hashes on kano.is I will need to order more. Yoshi Do you have any from the USA website?
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Puffy23
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June 05, 2016, 09:44:08 PM |
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Again, I ask why anyone would buy a machine for more BTC than it returns.
For fun? More seriously, i see both view points and being valid in some respect. for example, your argument re current btc price is not 100% kosher either. First, you typically use $$ to buy that bitcoin to buy a miner, so you start with $$, not btc. If you started with pre-mined bitcoin, then your argument is more valid. Second, when you buy miner, you don't know what happens with bitcoin price later on, so you cannot just buy btc and expect returns. You might very well lose money, so it is not 100% safe proposition either. However, if you bought btc, and it went down and you sold at a loss, then you can claim that loss against your capital gains or take a straight loss against your income up to $3000/year in US, so situation is complex. I appreciate the thoughtful response. I would like to say that I too find mining to be fun. I just don't think it's always a sound investment. At this point bitcoin is an investment. Whether you buy and hold or decide to mine you are investing in bitcoin. In either case you start with fiat currency. What I am saying is that mining ROI calculations in BTC will tell you whether you should hold the coins you just purchased with fiat, or mine with them. Or more accurate, which will generate higher profits. If you run ROI in BTC and see that the miner will not return the same BTC, then you hold. If BTC goes up, you make more money. If BTC goes down, you lose less money. Because in this scenario you will always have less BTC to sell back when you 'exit' your investment if you bought the miner. The other scenario is that your run ROI in BTC and see that the miner produces more than it costs. This is the only time things get tricky. Buy and hold has less taxes, so even if they are equal investment is more profitable (depending on country). Then you have to consider extra variables like downtime, cost of heat and noise, etc. We aren't even at the second scenario though. This miner will not return the BTC that it costs today. No matter which way you slice it you walk away with more fiat currency if you hold your 3.67 BTC. Would you purchase 4 gold bars today to trade for digging equipment that will produce 3 gold bars in a year? Would you justify it as a solid decision by saying, "but the cost of gold went way up! I didn't actually lose any money". No, no one in their right mind would knowingly purchase 4 gold bars to trade for equipment that generated 3 gold bars in return. If investment in gold was the goal, they'd hold the 4 bars. One might dig for gold at a loss to have fun digging, but they wouldn't try to sell it as more profitable than just holding the 4 gold bars.
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hawkfish007
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June 05, 2016, 10:24:07 PM |
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14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.
I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.
I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.
14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7 You are aware that the BTC mining reward is cut in half starting July 10 right? After July 10 the S9 will perform like a 7TH/s machine does today. If you can't math you should at least work on identifying quality calculators. And folks, never trust someone who 'LOLs' on the forums. is it happening on july 10? not a little bit later? this clock is july 11 http://bitcoinblockhalf.com/So if bitmaintech ships on time and you get the s-9 on the 14th of june you get 27 days before the 1/2ing So you can earn about 500 usd in those 27days if price and diff stays stable. But 1 good price spike and it goes up a lot. so earning back 700 usd before the ½ ing is possible. after the ½ ing who knows. A few points. 1. A single day is not going to make or break profit. Why quibble over July 10th vs. July 11th? a. When S9s come online it will move up the halving date as the network will grow. Maybe the 7th, 8th, or 9th. Who cares, it's happening. b. If we really thought a day was important I'd point out that Bitmain ships on the 12th. They START shipping on the 12th. I don't know how many people will be mining on the 14th... 2. The insistence on evaluating ROI in fiat currency is deeply flawed. This thing costs 3.67 BTC + shipping + customs/VAT. It will take ~200 days to earn that same BTC back with 0% network growth and free electricity. In the real world where we pay for electricity and the network grows that means you're looking at approximately 1 year. Who cares what the exchange rate is? You are giving 3.67 BTC (plus more for shipping, etc.) and receiving less than that back from your miner. You are losing BTC. a. If you rely on exchange rate to ROI, you would have done better to simply hold the 3.67 BTC and sell it back when rates are favorable. b. An example: I made 15% ROI on my fiat currency with S7. BTC increase by 50% in that same period. Had I held the coin, I would have ROI'd 50% instead of 15%. I could have made triple what I made by not mining. Always evaluate ROI in BTC. Never evaluate roi in btc if you live in the usa as to do so is exactly the opposite of what usa tax laws say to do. Never compare roi on gear to roi on buy and hold. if you live in the usa as they are completely different under usa tax laws. It is difficult to have clear cut discussion on the net for a long list of reasons. Plus we are an international multi language forum. Please Ignore all of the above if you are not USA based. Since it does not apply to your country laws. Just as VAT has zero meaning to me as I am USA based. As for when the ½ ing comes you are correct in that July 7 to July 14 won't make roi much of a difference. Buying s-9s' work for me not buying 20 buying 6 or less makes good money sense for me. I have enough power for six units. I can run them with zero power Risk for years. My risk is diff and coin price. I have no cost for psu's and I have older gear to sell off. If I sell all the s-7's the s-5 the sp20's and the avalon6's My cost for the s-9 drops. But if you are GB based with no gear you have VAT to add in and the gear is no longer 2100 it is more like 2600 or more. Plus you will need psus'. Right now I have the two on order. And I am mining with the older gear. Right on philipma1957, I don't know why everyone insists calculating ROI in BTC. I buy BTC with fiat when ordering not from my stash of few BTCs I have, I record revenues in fiat because that's how IRS wants me to report earnings. So there is no reason or benefit calculating ROI in BTC for me. Paid about the same for my B1 S7s ($1900 with shipping back in August of last year). They didn't make 8-9 BTCs I paid for them but in fiat terms they made over $1900 each. I still have them and can sell them for some $$$ here or on eBay. I would still have those beefy server PSUs for next generation of miners even if I liquidate my S7s. Now, if I had to pay VAT, buy PSUs and add $500 to my purchase price doing so my situation would have been little different. The bolded bit is exactly why you calculate ROI in BTC. Let's say you only paid 8 BTC for your S7. That 8 BTC is worth $4,622 USD today. So you made back your $1,900 per unit and then some; Did you make $4,622 per unit? That answer is no, as you yourself said you didn't get your BTC back. Calculating ROI in BTC tells you whether or not it is better to hold the coin, or mine with the coin. Why would you give someone 3.67 BTC for a machine that returns ~2.5 BTC? What part of that makes any sense? Why wouldn't you just hold the 3.67 BTC? To suggest one should not calculate ROI in BTC because the US government says not to is absolutely crazy. I am not suggesting you fill out your tax forms in this manner, I am saying you stick to BTC while doing your private "is this worth it" calculations. Not to mention that capital gains taxes are lower... Again, I ask why anyone would buy a machine for more BTC than it returns. So you don't see or care for fun factor and decentralization consideration in mining BTC or any coins for that matter. Well who cares as long as I make money right? If everybody would have bought BTC since inception, there would only be a handful of centralized players existed by now, but that's not the case is it. Look at Kano.is, 1/5 of total hash power comprised of small miners like me running S7, A6 or older gears. If I am able to make $100 while having an increasingly interesting hobby I am happy. And since Terraminer, S1, Titan era I did just that, made money not to your expected $4622/unit but some decent profit, except for loosing money for investing in some western companies.
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Puffy23
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June 05, 2016, 10:41:13 PM |
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14Th/s sounds like a nice big number. I threw it into a mining calculator and even with free electricity and the halving reward put in it would take 200+ days. But that is with a fixed a difficulty.
I feel sorry for the folks that will end up buying one of these at the price they're currently at.
I'm hoping, either, higher hashing power machines come out, or they are made and sold cheaper.
14TH at 1375 watts? At fixed difficulty that will take 110 days... By the way all the s9's are already sold LOL. The miner is 2.5 times more efficient in terms of power to GH as the s7 You are aware that the BTC mining reward is cut in half starting July 10 right? After July 10 the S9 will perform like a 7TH/s machine does today. If you can't math you should at least work on identifying quality calculators. And folks, never trust someone who 'LOLs' on the forums. is it happening on july 10? not a little bit later? this clock is july 11 http://bitcoinblockhalf.com/So if bitmaintech ships on time and you get the s-9 on the 14th of june you get 27 days before the 1/2ing So you can earn about 500 usd in those 27days if price and diff stays stable. But 1 good price spike and it goes up a lot. so earning back 700 usd before the ½ ing is possible. after the ½ ing who knows. A few points. 1. A single day is not going to make or break profit. Why quibble over July 10th vs. July 11th? a. When S9s come online it will move up the halving date as the network will grow. Maybe the 7th, 8th, or 9th. Who cares, it's happening. b. If we really thought a day was important I'd point out that Bitmain ships on the 12th. They START shipping on the 12th. I don't know how many people will be mining on the 14th... 2. The insistence on evaluating ROI in fiat currency is deeply flawed. This thing costs 3.67 BTC + shipping + customs/VAT. It will take ~200 days to earn that same BTC back with 0% network growth and free electricity. In the real world where we pay for electricity and the network grows that means you're looking at approximately 1 year. Who cares what the exchange rate is? You are giving 3.67 BTC (plus more for shipping, etc.) and receiving less than that back from your miner. You are losing BTC. a. If you rely on exchange rate to ROI, you would have done better to simply hold the 3.67 BTC and sell it back when rates are favorable. b. An example: I made 15% ROI on my fiat currency with S7. BTC increase by 50% in that same period. Had I held the coin, I would have ROI'd 50% instead of 15%. I could have made triple what I made by not mining. Always evaluate ROI in BTC. Never evaluate roi in btc if you live in the usa as to do so is exactly the opposite of what usa tax laws say to do. Never compare roi on gear to roi on buy and hold. if you live in the usa as they are completely different under usa tax laws. It is difficult to have clear cut discussion on the net for a long list of reasons. Plus we are an international multi language forum. Please Ignore all of the above if you are not USA based. Since it does not apply to your country laws. Just as VAT has zero meaning to me as I am USA based. As for when the ½ ing comes you are correct in that July 7 to July 14 won't make roi much of a difference. Buying s-9s' work for me not buying 20 buying 6 or less makes good money sense for me. I have enough power for six units. I can run them with zero power Risk for years. My risk is diff and coin price. I have no cost for psu's and I have older gear to sell off. If I sell all the s-7's the s-5 the sp20's and the avalon6's My cost for the s-9 drops. But if you are GB based with no gear you have VAT to add in and the gear is no longer 2100 it is more like 2600 or more. Plus you will need psus'. Right now I have the two on order. And I am mining with the older gear. Right on philipma1957, I don't know why everyone insists calculating ROI in BTC. I buy BTC with fiat when ordering not from my stash of few BTCs I have, I record revenues in fiat because that's how IRS wants me to report earnings. So there is no reason or benefit calculating ROI in BTC for me. Paid about the same for my B1 S7s ($1900 with shipping back in August of last year). They didn't make 8-9 BTCs I paid for them but in fiat terms they made over $1900 each. I still have them and can sell them for some $$$ here or on eBay. I would still have those beefy server PSUs for next generation of miners even if I liquidate my S7s. Now, if I had to pay VAT, buy PSUs and add $500 to my purchase price doing so my situation would have been little different. The bolded bit is exactly why you calculate ROI in BTC. Let's say you only paid 8 BTC for your S7. That 8 BTC is worth $4,622 USD today. So you made back your $1,900 per unit and then some; Did you make $4,622 per unit? That answer is no, as you yourself said you didn't get your BTC back. Calculating ROI in BTC tells you whether or not it is better to hold the coin, or mine with the coin. Why would you give someone 3.67 BTC for a machine that returns ~2.5 BTC? What part of that makes any sense? Why wouldn't you just hold the 3.67 BTC? To suggest one should not calculate ROI in BTC because the US government says not to is absolutely crazy. I am not suggesting you fill out your tax forms in this manner, I am saying you stick to BTC while doing your private "is this worth it" calculations. Not to mention that capital gains taxes are lower... Again, I ask why anyone would buy a machine for more BTC than it returns. So you don't see or care for fun factor and decentralization consideration in mining BTC or any coins for that matter. Well who cares as long as I make money right? If everybody would have bought BTC since inception, there would only be a handful of centralized players existed by now, but that's not the case is it. Look at Kano.is, 1/5 of total hash power comprised of small miners like me running S7, A6 or older gears. If I am able to make $100 while having an increasingly interesting hobby I am happy. And since Terraminer, S1, Titan era I did just that, made money not to your expected $4622/unit but some decent profit, except for loosing money for investing in some western companies. Way to stick a ton of words in my mouth. The statement I was responding to was that you never run ROI in BTC because we operate on fiat and the US government says you calculate ROI in fiat. I am a hobbyist myself with a few S3s cycled, S5s cycled, and a few S7s running. I get it, trust me. Further, holding BTC is still supporting BTC. Capitalization is a very important component in value. At this point, I would say that transaction volume and capitalization are far more beneficial to BTC than additional hash power. If you purchased some BTC as investment, and some BTC to trade you would still be supporting the network. The notion that miners are somehow more benevolent than investors is a complete fabrication and woeful dishonesty at best. There are plenty of selfish miners who would be mining worthless coins if it weren't for investors and traders. Second, if you believe that purchasing overpriced Bitmain gear is furthering decentralization you've fallen off your rocker. That extra 1-1.5 BTC they charged you is funding additional miners for Bitmain's private farm. I don't see how giving money to the largest equipment manufacturer operating the largest network pool in any way supports decentralization.
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hawkfish007
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June 05, 2016, 10:58:52 PM |
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I am not going to quote above thread, getting too big. Now it is either S9 or nothing. Come July all of my S7s will not be almost worthless, once they are retired I would still be able to run my S9, 1 S9 will replace 3 S7s but still consume as much as 1 S7 and continue to contribute to the network. I pay 300x or 400x times more than it costs to make for an iPhone, I don't see it any differently.
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Biodom
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June 05, 2016, 10:59:21 PM Last edit: June 05, 2016, 11:53:50 PM by Biodom |
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@hawkfish007 Solid argument! What a great hobby, mining is! I was not a very technical person beforehand, but now I: 1. learned some Linux 2. can assemble a computer from parts (wifie was genuinely impressed with me "running around" with a screwdriver and fixing things, which pretty much never happened before). 3. diversified my holdings a bit from pure fiat to fiat, btc and eth. 4. had so much fun learning many new things-the single best thing that had happened to me since late 2013, really.
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edonkey
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June 05, 2016, 11:01:39 PM |
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So why do we continue to do business with them?
The same reason the west has always done business with China in increasing volume - they're always the cheapest, always. The race to the bottom in manufacturing of everything has continued in absolutely every other market where the number of people concerned with quality over price has only ever been a small minority. In the bitcoin mining world where bottom dollar is everything, that minority is even smaller to the point of being a virtually irrelevant part of the market. Be aware that we will almost certainly be obliged to work around this stupid random alteration in their stratum protocol in ckpool if they don't fix their software immediately and make it properly stratum compliant, otherwise we'll be shutting out the bulk of the next generation of miners sold. We're hoping not to need to do this but we're also realistic. This manufacturer has the lion's share of the only two left to choose from, being the cheapest, and we can't change that. As I've said elsewhere, it's not malice that is making them force people to mine on antpool. They just changed it to work best with antpool, and have no care factor for checking it works elsewhere. Thanks for chiming in ck. I appreciate that you're approaching this pragmatically, although it would be irritating if they force this change on you. Would their protocol changes also affect proxy software? As a hobbyist miner I have to admit that I'm ignorant of how mining proxies work. But if custom protocol changes might affect larger miners' ability to proxy, that would be a good thing to know about up front. Since Yoshi has said that the S9 works on Kano's pool, maybe they're dealing with this before shipping and these concerns are moot. It would be nice if they conditionalized their non-standard protocol additions such that it's limited to their own pool.
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edonkey
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June 05, 2016, 11:24:23 PM |
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I am not going to quote above thread, getting too big. Now it is either S9 or nothing. Come July all of my S7s will not be almost worthless, once they are retired I would still be able to run my S9, 1 S9 will replace 3 S7s but still consume as much as 1 S7 and continue to contribute to the network. I pay 300x or 400x times more than it costs to make for an iPhone, I don't see it any differently.
Really what this comes down to is that there's multiple ways to justify mining. I originally approached this as a hobby. After playing with Scrypt for fun (not caring about losing money) I used the BTC-in-BTC-out discipline and that worked well for me. I profited in BTC terms with every miner. Then the S7 came out and I threw that discipline out the window. It was fun to have the latest hardware, but the fact that I could never get the BTC out that I put in bothered me. I ended up selling my S7s early to recoup fiat ROI. On top of all this was the S7 B1 delivery delays, and corresponding compensation delays, because Bitmain planned badly. Instead of getting my units on time, they missed the shipping deadline and my S7s stayed in their data center hashing for them instead of me while the whole country was getting plastered for a week long festival. All of this added up to me feeling like an idiot for stepping away from my discipline and yielding all control to Bitmain. As much as I love the hobby and as much as I miss actively mining (it's addicting), this time with the S9s I'm not buying until it makes sense in BTC investment terms. If that never happens, I'll stick with old miners. Depending on the timing, maybe when you're ready to sell your S7s I'll buy them back from you ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Again, this is my preference, not an argument for how everyone should make the decision to buy or not.
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sidehack
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June 05, 2016, 11:37:08 PM |
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CK - my question was mostly rhetorical. I know all the business reasons why people deal with China. I also know (and for the most part represent) all the reasons why some people refuse to deal with China.
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-ck
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June 05, 2016, 11:38:44 PM |
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CK - my question was mostly rhetorical. I know all the business reasons why people deal with China. I also know (and for the most part represent) all the reasons why some people refuse to deal with China.
That I understood, however that doesn't stop people asking the questions so every so often an old bastard like me has to spell it out as clearly as possible.
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Puffy23
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June 05, 2016, 11:59:18 PM |
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I am not going to quote above thread, getting too big. Now it is either S9 or nothing. Come July all of my S7s will not be almost worthless, once they are retired I would still be able to run my S9, 1 S9 will replace 3 S7s but still consume as much as 1 S7 and continue to contribute to the network. I pay 300x or 400x times more than it costs to make for an iPhone, I don't see it any differently.
Really what this comes down to is that there's multiple ways to justify mining. I originally approached this as a hobby. After playing with Scrypt for fun (not caring about losing money) I used the BTC-in-BTC-out discipline and that worked well for me. I profited in BTC terms with every miner. Then the S7 came out and I threw that discipline out the window. It was fun to have the latest hardware, but the fact that I could never get the BTC out that I put in bothered me. I ended up selling my S7s early to recoup fiat ROI. On top of all this was the S7 B1 delivery delays, and corresponding compensation delays, because Bitmain planned badly. Instead of getting my units on time, they missed the shipping deadline and my S7s stayed in their data center hashing for them instead of me while the whole country was getting plastered for a week long festival. All of this added up to me feeling like an idiot for stepping away from my discipline and yielding all control to Bitmain. As much as I love the hobby and as much as I miss actively mining (it's addicting), this time with the S9s I'm not buying until it makes sense in BTC investment terms. If that never happens, I'll stick with old miners. Depending on the timing, maybe when you're ready to sell your S7s I'll buy them back from you ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Again, this is my preference, not an argument for how everyone should make the decision to buy or not. Very well said. I made more BTC than I paid on the S3s and the S5s (and Bitmain still made profit). It wasn't until the S7 that I lost BTC, and like you, it was because I lost my discipline. I wanted the big boy and rationalized it any way I could. Just like folks are doing with the S9. I do not believe Bitmain is under any obligation to sell miners at cost, but to sell them for at least approximately what they will generate. I don't want people to confuse manufacture cost with mining revenue value. Bitmain is essentially building a 2 BTC miner for 1 BTC and then selling it to us for 3 BTC because they can (not because they have to cover some sort of cost). It blows my mind that people are defending this action and calling the purchase of that 2 BTC miner for 3 BTC a solid investment. Let's just call it a cool purchase.
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hawkfish007
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June 06, 2016, 12:07:33 AM |
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I am not going to quote above thread, getting too big. Now it is either S9 or nothing. Come July all of my S7s will not be almost worthless, once they are retired I would still be able to run my S9, 1 S9 will replace 3 S7s but still consume as much as 1 S7 and continue to contribute to the network. I pay 300x or 400x times more than it costs to make for an iPhone, I don't see it any differently.
Depending on the timing, maybe when you're ready to sell your S7s I'll buy them back from you ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Again, this is my preference, not an argument for how everyone should make the decision to buy or not. I have 20 S7s from various batches at two colocation centers. I am willing to let them go now. If interested let me know.
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sidehack
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June 06, 2016, 12:10:30 AM |
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CK - my question was mostly rhetorical. I know all the business reasons why people deal with China. I also know (and for the most part represent) all the reasons why some people refuse to deal with China.
That I understood, however that doesn't stop people asking the questions so every so often an old bastard like me has to spell it out as clearly as possible. Nothing wrong with that. As old bastard in training, I respect the point.
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Biodom
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June 06, 2016, 12:19:28 AM |
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CK - my question was mostly rhetorical. I know all the business reasons why people deal with China. I also know (and for the most part represent) all the reasons why some people refuse to deal with China.
That I understood, however that doesn't stop people asking the questions so every so often an old bastard like me has to spell it out as clearly as possible. Nothing wrong with that. As old bastard in training, I respect the point. [laughing]... so, where is the demarcation line between OB in training vs OB? I am firmly in the OB category already, regardless.
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sidehack
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June 06, 2016, 12:27:22 AM |
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Well, I just turned 30 last month so I don't think I qualify yet.
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Biodom
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June 06, 2016, 12:36:33 AM Last edit: June 06, 2016, 01:39:59 AM by Biodom |
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Well, I just turned 30 last month so I don't think I qualify yet.
Since healthcare considers people under 25 as children...sure. Brain development does not stop until we are 25, too. The funniest age definition I ever encountered was with NIH, which considers people below 42 years old as "young" scientists. Maybe it is up to 45 now, I just don't know.
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edonkey
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June 06, 2016, 12:39:42 AM |
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Well, I just turned 30 last month so I don't think I qualify yet.
Wait a minute. You just turned 30 and you know how to write? I don't know how you pulled that off. By your sense of grammar I thought for sure that you were at least in your fifties ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Sorry for getting off topic. Returning to our regularly scheduled overpriced hardware thread...
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Was I helpful? BTC: 3G1Ubof5u8K9iJkM8We2f3amYZgGVdvpHr
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sidehack
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Curmudgeonly hardware guy
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June 06, 2016, 01:18:37 AM |
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Well, I have a unique background. My father is a jack-of-all-trades carpenter and the son of a civil engineer; my mother is an English teacher, the daughter of a math teacher and a telephone lineman (farmers both), so I grew up alternating between swinging a hammer and digesting classic Literature. Alongside my engineering and science degrees I took enough English classes in college that I'm one shy of a minor in writing - something I might complete if I can afford to get back in this fall.
Oh yeah, and hardware is overpriced. I'm looking forward to my S7LN getting shipped any day now, so I can play around with optimized undervolting. Might pick up some cheap 135-chip S7s after the halving and crank 'em down to baseline efficiency. If any of Hawkfish's machines in my hosting are still up for grabs by then we might strike a deal.
Probably won't have any 16nm gear of my own until I'm running stuff I've built myself. Don't really have the budget anymore for a $2100 miner, not when that's more than I paid for my old-enough-to-drink car.
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NotFuzzyWarm
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Evil beware: We have waffles!
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June 06, 2016, 01:59:01 AM |
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Sidehack, if you need a 135 chip s7 to play with, looks like I'll have a couple spares after my s9 arrives (limited power budget) so I can always send you one. btw: if you need more s5's to strip for making Compacs I have 3 more I can send ya. ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) As for old farts.... Turning 60 here next mo right around the Halving.
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